Afghanistan.. clear objective and exit strategy?

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

I mean by supporting the people's choice to have a democratic government, instead of forcing it upon them.

Before we handed Saddam over to the IRAQI authorities to "assassinate," the Iraqis forged a democratic government of their choice.

The Taiwanese people want a democratic state. The US supports them in that measure - be it with a military backing (just as we support our other allies with our military), economic support (like we give to the Europeans) and diplomatic support.

The Iraqi people want a democratic state. The US suports them in that measure-be it with a military backing . . .economic support . . .and diplomatic support.

My correlation of the US "Spreading Democracy" (a term which is Bush chanted quite frequently) and Imperialism is through the methods in which democracy was 'given' to the Iraqi people - through the military ousting of the previous government. My relationship to imperialism lies within your statement "Spreading democracy ... IS the right thing to do."

My head still spins at Imperialism being the method of giving democracy. So, then, I would guess by your relation to imperialism, imperialistically spreading democracy to a people by militarily ousting the previous government, our founding fathers were imperialists.

Overthrowing a government with our military to install a democratic one is what I am calling modern day Imperialism.

Oh---I see now, your talking about MODERN DAY imperialism.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Oh---I see now, your talking about MODERN DAY imperialism.

Correct. I'm inserting a concept into the conversation that I didn't hear on the radio or read on some website. It's an observation/opinion that I have formed on my own. I understand that is a novel concept for many of the conservatives in here.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Correct. I'm inserting a concept into the conversation that I didn't hear on the radio or read on some website. It's an observation/opinion that I have formed on my own. I understand that is a novel concept for many of the conservatives in here.

Very novel, indeed! I can see that you don't drink the Kool-Aid. At least not until you mix it with something more potent, something to truly stir the imagination--well beyond the musty, boring, pedestrian mind of some conservatives. Happy dreams, my boy, your creativity will take you far.

PS--it's amazing how much the meaning of words can change when they get "progressively" politicized.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Very novel, indeed! I can see that you don't drink the Kool-Aid. At least not until you mix it with something more potent, something to truly stir the imagination--well beyond the musty, boring, pedestrian mind of some conservatives. Happy dreams, my boy, your creativity will take you far.

PS--it's amazing how much the meaning of words can change when they get "progressively" politicized.

Drinking the Kool-Aid huh? When exactly has any comment referencing a phrase like modern day Imperialism ever been mentioned?

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Drinking the Kool-Aid huh? When exactly has any comment referencing a phrase like modern day Imperialism ever been mentioned?

Naom Chonsky, left wing mags and blogs, even "centrist" ones. Even our relationship with Taiwan would be considered modern day imperialism. Our whole history would be considered modern day imperialism. Now that the US exists, it should not mix, meddle, suggest, or in any way influence a lesser state lest it become a modern day imperialist. Not to mention that we SHOULDN'T exist because so much, if not all, our past actions could be construed as modern day imperialism. Of course that would be re-writing history to suit the "modern" mind. But re-writing history seems to be the leftist mode, so, for the "modern" mind it's ok to do so.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Naom Chonsky, left wing mags and blogs, even "centrist" ones. Even our relationship with Taiwan would be considered modern day imperialism. Our whole history would be considered modern day imperialism. Now that the US exists, it should not mix, meddle, suggest, or in any way influence a lesser state lest it become a modern day imperialist. Not to mention that we SHOULDN'T exist because so much, if not all, our past actions could be construed as modern day imperialism. Of course that would be re-writing history to suit the "modern" mind. But re-writing history seems to be the leftist mode, so, for the "modern" mind it's ok to do so.

Your argument is about as valid as people that state I can't complain about illegal immigrants because we were all immigrants at one point.

Also, modern is a relative term meaning "characteristic of present-day". As such, the english, french and spanish coming to the new world and taking it from the indians was imperialistic, but certainly not modern-day imperialism since it happened three hundred years ago. I would also mention that expanding imperialistic government policies are not internationally acceptable any longer.

[scottw]

pretty funny... this was included in the definition of imperialism at Answers.com

Policy of systematic domination and exploitation of a country by another country or an empire. Marxists assert that the United States engages in imperialism because powerful U.S. Businesses need to protect their foreign markets.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Your argument is about as valid as people that state I can't complain about illegal immigrants because we were all immigrants at one point.

Also, modern is a relative term meaning "characteristic of present-day". As such, the english, french and spanish coming to the new world and taking it from the indians was imperialistic, but certainly not modern-day imperialism since it happened three hundred years ago. I would also mention that expanding imperialistic government policies are not internationally acceptable any longer.

But, Johnny, I was merely answering your question "when exactly has any comment referencing a phrase like modern day imperialism ever been mentioned?" If you google "modern day imperialism" you'll find that you are not the first to ust the phrase, and the use of it (fairly wide spread in leftist talk) pretty much corresponds to my response to your question--which, BTW, shows how you contradict yourself when you say "our dealings with Taiwan, that's how you spread democracy." Our dealings with Taiwan would be considered, by those using the phrase before you, as modern day imperialism.

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Naom Chonsky, left wing mags and blogs, even "centrist" ones. Even our relationship with Taiwan would be considered modern day imperialism. Our whole history would be considered modern day imperialism. Now that the US exists, it should not mix, meddle, suggest, or in any way influence a lesser state lest it become a modern day imperialist. Not to mention that we SHOULDN'T exist because so much, if not all, our past actions could be construed as modern day imperialism. Of course that would be re-writing history to suit the "modern" mind. But re-writing history seems to be the leftist mode, so, for the "modern" mind it's ok to do so.

Why is it that some people find it so revolting to think critically about the USA, or worse yet, actually apply our own standards to our own behavior?

God forbid we admit that at times our own %$%$%$%$ doesn't stink.

Of course to do so much be a sign of weakness, or a viral based bout of Liberalism. Those who's minds are so polluted have their DNA firmly rooted in the finest Marxist traditions, and ScottW has the quotes to prove it.

One of my favorite critics of the US was my first cousin (once removed) Terry Spencer. He was quite Liberal and vehemently against the Iraq war on the basis that it was not a "preemptive" war as advertised, but rather a "preventive" war. How we could think that such influence in the region, primarily to secure our vital interests, couldn't be seen as somewhat imperialistic was beyond him. Look at the US military footprint across the planet...Instead of denying this perhaps the proponents should embrace the notion.

I'm sure if Terry were here to post his own thoughts he'd be quickly painted with the same pathetic and worn out talking points born from a talk radio inspired neo-McCarthyistic spasm.

Sadly, Terry passed away last year. Probably a better "American" than I, or any of us will every be.

Spencer, Terence J.

Pultneyville: Died April 1, 2008 after a long illness. Terence James Spencer, 79, was born October 10, 1928 in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, the only child of James Allen Spencer and Kathryn (Duffey) Spencer.

Terry graduated from Loras College in Dubuque, Iowa in 1950 with a BA in English. He earned his master's degree in speech and drama from Catholic University in Washinton, D.C. in 1954, and a PhD in English from Stanford University in Palo Alto, CA. in 1957.

His academic appointments included the University of Wisconsin (Madison), University of Notre Dame, Catholic University of America, Rochester Institute of Technology, National University of Zaire, and King Saud University.

A World War II and Korean War Army Veteran, he also served the government as an independent consultant for Project Upward Bound, as a Peace Corps. volunteer, and as a Foreign Service Officer. He had a life-long interest in theatre and the arts, and served in 1970 as the Executive Producer of Saint Albans Repertory Company in Washington, D.C. His own play, "Jonah" was produced off-Broadway in 1967.

Terry traveled the entire world, living and working in Zaire, Saudi Arabia, Australia, Papua New Guinea and Korea. He visited China, Antarctica, and the Galapagos Islands. He traveled extensively in Europe, Canada and the United States.

After retirement, Terry served terms as Trustees/Executive Director of the Wayne County Historical Society and Trustee/President of the Pultneyville Historical Society.

He contributed social-political, drama and travel columns to the Wayne Weekly, Newark Courier-Gazette and the Williamson Sun and Record. Most recently, he served as a Trustee for the Williamson Public Library. He was active in local politics and a member of the Williamson American Legion Post 394 and the Veterans of Foreign Wars Post 6778 in Palmyra.

Terry was predeceased by his first wife, Elois (Wiren) Spencer in 1971. He is survived by his son, Geoffrey Spencer of Manchester, New Hampshire; daughter, Katherine (Dell) Hodges of Webster, New York and granddaughter, Sarah Hodges of Buffalo, New York.

-spence

[detbuch]

[QUOTE=spence;709842]Why is it that some people find it so revolting to think critically about the USA, or worse yet, actually apply our own standards to our own behavior?

I'm not sure why you chose my response to JohnnyD referring to use of the phrase "modern day imperialism." What is in that response that implies I'm revolted by criticism of USA or that I don't apply my own standards to my own behavior? I think critically of OUR country almost daily. My posts in these threads are replies to fellow citizens of the USA. We all have a personal point of view, mine is no less important or less American than yours. Are you revolted by MY opinions?

God forbid we admit that at times our own %$%$%$%$ doesn't stink.

I often think my verbal feces stink. Do you ever feel the same about yours?

Of course to do so much be a sign of weakness, or a viral based bout of Liberalism. Those who's minds are so polluted have their DNA firmly rooted in the finest Marxist traditions, and ScottW has the quotes to prove it.

Historically, we are rooted in classical liberalism/conservatism, naturalism, evolutionary capitalism. It is natural for those still rooted such to reject Marxism. But the resistance to Marxism/socialism/progressivism is weakening, and the tide may turn. Can you blame old line Americans for defending their beliefs? Quite contrary to "a sign of weakness", it is seen as a sign of growing strength to view the growing numbers of youth, especially those educated in what conservatives feel are bastions of Marxism, along with the combined numbers of immigrants, minorities, laborites, gays, feminists, etc., who, for various reasons, sometimes in opposition to "conservatism," are swelling the "progressive" ranks,

One of my favorite critics of the US was my first cousin (once removed) Terry Spencer. He was quite Liberal and vehemently against the Iraq war on the basis that it was not a "preemptive" war as advertised, but rather a "preventive" war. How we could think that such influence in the region, primarily to secure our vital interests, couldn't be seen as somewhat imperialistic was beyond him. Look at the US military footprint across the planet...Instead of denying this perhaps the proponents should embrace the notion.

He is, by your account, an accomplished, intelligent, patriotic, wonderful man who has led a full, satisfying life. If I were prone to jealousy, I would be jealous. I truly mean that as a compliment.

I'm sure if Terry were here to post his own thoughts he'd be quickly painted with the same pathetic and worn out talking points born from a talk radio inspired neo-McCarthyistic spasm.-spence[QUOTE]

It sounds like he would make, as you do, some strong points. I don't know how quickly he would be painted, but you have quickly turned from reflection to revolting, nasty remarks. Are those an application of your own standards?

I sense a true loss in the passing of Terry. I apologize if anything I've said here is in any way offensive, that is not intended. Much as I may have disagreed with some of his opinions, I would that he were still here.