inner city and the democratic party

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

As is the major issue of the United States' Open-Door Policy on immigration.

What this country needs to do is restrict all immigration (and working Visas) to those people that will actually benefit society. This country needs to get out of the business of making everyone feel good, and back into the business of getting our heads above the water.

You have a Master's Degree and are already set up with a job? Welcome to America!

You're 35 years old, don't have a secondary education nor any technical training skills? Goodbye!

I'm 90% onboard with this.....But I don't feel they need to come here all trained and ready to go.....If they want to come here....willing to work for what they get I'm OK with that....If that means janitor by night and schooling during the day......so be it.

Just come here and plan on working for your dream.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

I'm 90% onboard with this.....But I don't feel they need to come here all trained and ready to go.....If they want to come here....willing to work for what they get I'm OK with that....If that means janitor by night and schooling during the day......so be it.

Just come here and plan on working for your dream.

Schools are already over populated and prices for a BA or advanced decree are increasing at an exponential rate.

No immigrant janitor will be making enough money to put themselves through school. So, they stop attending school because they can't afford it, or petition for one of the dozens of programs that will pay to put them through school.

These are people you might dub as "potential contributors to society". As I tell my sales people, you can't run a business on potential customers.

This country is like one big Charity Foundation. Let's get the homeless veterans and homeless children that already live here taken care of first, before we open the door to more people needing handouts.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

This country is like one big Charity Foundation. Let's get the homeless veterans and homeless children that already live here taken care of first, before we open the door to more people needing handouts.

Agree JD, but at this point how do we do it?

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Schools are already over populated and prices for a BA or advanced decree are increasing at an exponential rate.

No immigrant janitor will be making enough money to put themselves through school.

Didn't say the guy had to go to Harvard Law School.....He could go to a trade school or take a course @ ITT Tech for all I care...as long as he comes here, Works, and pays his taxes I'd be happy to sit down and have a beer with the guy.

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

So, they stop attending school because they can't afford it, or petition for one of the dozens of programs that will pay to put them through school.

Instead of always looking at the worst case scenario....which of course will happen....how about looking at the best case scenario....where the guy actually does work hard and puts his kids though school and eventually get his own house.....That happens too you know

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

These are people you might dub as "potential contributors to society". As I tell my sales people, you can't run a business on potential customers.

Every Kid born in America is a Potential Contributor to Society. Until they stop Crapping their diaper or Raiding the refrigerator and enter the work force they really don't contribute do they?

Do you tell your Sales guys to ignore folks without giving them a chance to make a purchase? Or do you tell them to look at every opportunity that is presented as a Sales Opportunity

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

This country is like one big Charity Foundation. Let's get the homeless veterans and homeless children that already live here taken care of first, before we open the door to more people needing handouts.

Whats weird is I agree with this statement......I'm not saying that every dipchit that wants to come here should be allowed to stay....if they are here legally w/ a work visa you can see if they are productive....and they are welcome to stay....if not, See Ya.....Don't let the door knob hit ya where the good lord split ya.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

Didn't say the guy had to go to Harvard Law School.....He could go to a trade school or take a course @ ITT Tech for all I care...as long as he comes here, Works, and pays his taxes I'd be happy to sit down and have a beer with the guy.


Instead of always looking at the worst case scenario....which of course will happen....how about looking at the best case scenario....where the guy actually does work hard and puts his kids though school and eventually get his own house.....That happens too you know

The best case scenario is not the statistically most probable scenario. I own a small business. I know how much hard work it can be, how much feeder money they can take, how considerably unanticipated expenses can add up in a flash. Serial Entrepreneurs often fail more than they succeed (but when they succeed, they do so very big).

Every Kid born in America is a Potential Contributor to Society. Until they stop Crapping their diaper or Raiding the refrigerator and enter the work force they really don't contribute do they?

Nope. As I'm sure you've read in some of my other posts, if they don't grow up, get a job and contribute to society, then they shouldn't benefit from it either with a free paycheck/health care to sit on the couch.

Do you tell your Sales guys to ignore folks without giving them a chance to make a purchase? Or do you tell them to look at every opportunity that is presented as a Sales Opportunity

Apples to Oranges. But, bringing this up provides a convenient analogy for my point. We run about a 10-15% successful sales rate on potential customers. Most phone calls, RFPs, site inspections and meetings are at a loss because we never see a cent of business from that person. However, the sales we do make, pay out very well at a high margin.

Quite exactly like a statistical sample of Start-ups. Most Fail - plain and simple. The ones that don't, tend to pay out dividends well (be it to provide a better quality of life, more money in the pocket, or just financial security).

Whats weird is I agree with this statement......I'm not saying that every dipchit that wants to come here should be allowed to stay....if they are here legally w/ a work visa you can see if they are productive....and they are welcome to stay....if not, See Ya.....Don't let the door knob hit ya where the good lord split ya.

Thanks to the US open-door policy, there is no way for INS to keep track of all these people. If a VISA expires, the only way that person gets deported, is if they somehow fall across the system - they try to fly, get arrested, (or as a personal friend did) took a bus to visit family in Canada without renewing their work VISA and get denied re-entry.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

The best case scenario is not the statistically most probable scenario. I own a small business. I know how much hard work it can be, how much feeder money they can take, how considerably unanticipated expenses can add up in a flash. Serial Entrepreneurs often fail more than they succeed (but when they succeed, they do so very big)..

They can also work for somebody else...they don't need to neccesarily start their own business. They can be electricians, plumbers, carpenters, roofer, landscapers....and work for somebody else....and do so legally and pay their share of taxes

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Nope. As I'm sure you've read in some of my other posts, if they don't grow up, get a job and contribute to society, then they shouldn't benefit from it either with a free paycheck/health care to sit on the couch.

Nothing wrong their...I agree with that

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Apples to Oranges. But, bringing this up provides a convenient analogy for my point. We run about a 10-15% successful sales rate on potential customers. Most phone calls, RFPs, site inspections and meetings are at a loss because we never see a cent of business from that person. However, the sales we do make, pay out very well at a high margin.

Also helps illustrate my point....you still don't ignore the other 85-90% until they don't pan out.....you allow it the chance turn into a sale...if it doesn't then you drop it

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Thanks to the US open-door policy, there is no way for INS to keep track of all these people. If a VISA expires, the only way that person gets deported, is if they somehow fall across the system - they try to fly, get arrested, (or as a personal friend did) took a bus to visit family in Canada without renewing their work VISA and get denied re-entry.

And there in lies where the Fixing needs to come in...thats the part of the system that is screwed up and causing the problems. I said earlier I didn't want an open door policy...they need to come here legally through a System that actually works

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

They can also work for somebody else...they don't need to neccesarily start their own business. They can be electricians, plumbers, carpenters, roofer, landscapers....and work for somebody else....and do so legally and pay their share of taxes

Without any skills or education, they can't do any of those things - aside from landscaping, which I did find as a fun job while in high school.

Also helps illustrate my point....you still don't ignore the other 85-90% until they don't pan out.....you allow it the chance turn into a sale...if it doesn't then you drop it

The reason you cannot let anyone come here and see if it pans out is because there is currently no capability for oversight. INS is overstretched beyond any effective operating capability. The Dallas bomb plotter that was just arrested was here on an expired VISA.
This article demonstrates that the US has *no* effective way of tracing whether Foreign Visitors have actually left the country or not.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2360429/posts
I believe at least one of the 9/11 hijackers was here on an expired visa.

Without the capability for oversight, the "benefit of the doubt" method can't be used. So yes, if they don't have any skills, aren't here to 100% pay for their own education or aren't here merely for a visit (with confirmed travel plans), they should not be allowed to enter.

And there in lies where the Fixing needs to come in...thats the part of the system that is screwed up and causing the problems. I said earlier I didn't want an open door policy...they need to come here legally through a System that actually works

Until that system actually works, everything else needs to be stopped. I'm not saying that eventually, your suggested "give people a chance" shouldn't happen. My argument is that under the current circumstances of INS and all other government offices that deal with immigration, the oversight is not there to prevent these people from possibly becoming an additional leech on an already overburdened economy.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Without any skills or education, they can't do any of those things - aside from landscaping, which I did find as a fun job while in high school..

Really, You need extensive schooling to be a roofer.

I got a friend that is a GC and he started by just being a day laborer lugging building supplies around. Learned on the job started carpentry, pay when up opportunities went up and he is where he is now.......and no additional schooling needed.

Any profession takes time to master. An Electrician can go to school and then has to log in so many hours as a journeyman....I'm pretty sure thats the same for a plumber

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

The reason you cannot let anyone come here and see if it pans out is because there is currently no capability for oversight. INS is overstretched beyond any effective operating capability. The Dallas bomb plotter that was just arrested was here on an expired VISA.
This article demonstrates that the US has *no* effective way of tracing whether Foreign Visitors have actually left the country or not.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2360429/posts
I believe at least one of the 9/11 hijackers was here on an expired visa.

I'm not arguing with you about the fact that the US INS service sucks....I know it does....it needs to be fixed. There needs to be a screening process, a checkin process......a lot of processes....I know that

and the terrorist examples are kind of weak.....c'mon 3 million untrackable VISA's and your going to pull out the fact that 2 of them are terrorists......your better than that

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Without the capability for oversight, the "benefit of the doubt" method can't be used. So yes, if they don't have any skills, aren't here to 100% pay for their own education or aren't here merely for a visit (with confirmed travel plans), they should not be allowed to enter.

and this will give the same red tape headaches as the current system.

Once they're in....they're in. no guarantees they're leaving or are going to pay their own way

[buckman]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

I'm 90% onboard with this.....But I don't feel they need to come here all trained and ready to go.....If they want to come here....willing to work for what they get I'm OK with that....If that means janitor by night and schooling during the day......so be it.

Just come here and plan on working for your dream.

I agree 100%. My girlfriend did it while raising 2 kids. It's called the American Dream and it's still there( for now) for those that are willing to work for it. No excuses

[Fly Rod]

Maybe we should implement one or two requirements that the Aussie's have for citizenship

Skilled worker
Have a job
English language ability

[Joe]

Interesting though how some immigrants work menial jobs, or sleep 10 to an apartment until they raise the capital for a convenience store, motel or restaurant, and then within one generation their children enter the professional class.

People from other countries see opportunity that many native Americans don't - or look down upon as beneath us. The top three ways Americans acquire wealth are: inheritance, business ownership, a distant third is working in a well-paying field. Yet our culture only really respects professionals.

But if you've been sewing shirts in Ecuador for thirteen hours a day for $5 a day, then working twelve hours a day in a bodega and sleeping upstairs with a full stomach, tax-free money in your pocket, a high speed internet connection, cable television and a window air conditioner - is paradise.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Joe

Interesting though how some immigrants work menial jobs, or sleep 10 to an apartment until they raise the capital for a convenience store, motel or restaurant, and then within one generation their children enter the professional class.

People from other countries see opportunity that many native Americans don't - or look down upon as beneath us. The top three ways Americans acquire wealth are: inheritance, business ownership, a distant third is working in a well-paying field. Yet our culture only really respects professionals.

But if you've been sewing shirts in Ecuador for thirteen hours a day for $5 a day, then working twelve hours a day in a bodega and sleeping upstairs with a full stomach, tax-free money in your pocket, a high speed internet connection, cable television and a window air conditioner - is paradise.

Unfortunately, this is not the case for most. Considering that 95% of small businesses fail (and a higher rate for restaurants), that's not a good outlook for the immigrants that come here with hopes of the American dream.

For every CNN headlined story about someone who came to the states and accomplished "The American Dream", I'd be willing to bet money there are more than a thousand more that came to this country with the same hopes and failed. As such, it is not in the United State's best interest to allow these people to come here.

This isn't the early 1900s where enough money for a steamship ride to America, combined with hard work, yields a good chance to solidify a better, self-sustaining life for you and your family. We have shifted away from a country with a strong factory and manufacturing job base, to one that is significantly service based with jobs that require specialized skills and experience in order to make similarly waged jobs.

And to make it even more difficult to achieve the so-called "American Dream"...
Today's Bachelor Degree, is yesteryear's High School Diploma.

[Joe]

[QUOTE=JohnnyD]95% of small businesses fail
Wow! I did not know that.

[scottw]

[QUOTE=Joe;717329]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

95% of small businesses fail
Wow! I did not know that.

it's not accurate

from USA Today
"In other words, they had what David Birch, former head of a research firm specializing in studying small business data, called the "I Had No Idea" syndrome. Would-be entrepreneurs don't realize what's truly involved with running a business.

So what is your chance of success? I think Birch's statistics are probably as accurate as any. His survival rates:

• First year: 85%
• Second: 70%
• Third: 62%
• Fourth: 55%
• Fifth: 50%
• Sixth: 47%
• Seventh: 44%
• Eighth: 41%
• Ninth: 38%
• Tenth: 35%

"Once you've hit five years, your odds of survival go way up," Birch said. "Only two to three percent of businesses older than five shut down each year."

The lesson? To greatly increase your chance of success, find out as much as you can BEFORE you open your doors. Talk to people who run their own businesses, especially businesses similar to yours, and get a realistic understanding of the time, financial, and emotional resources necessary. Keep your eyes open — not to the possibility of failure, but to the very real demands of running your own business.

So … what about that 90% failure rate cited on the radio? I went to the station's Web site and replayed the story. Listening closely, I realized they didn't mention any time period. So, perhaps the professor is right after all. I think it's safe to assume that within some period of time — oh, let's say 50 years — 90% of all businesses will close. I can live with those odds.

Rhonda Abrams is author of The Successful Business Plan: Secrets & Strategies and president of The Planning Shop, publishers of books and other tools for business plans. Register for Rhonda's free business planning newsletter at The Planning Shop - Write a successful business plan

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

Maybe we should implement one or two requirements that the Aussie's have for citizenship

Skilled worker
Have a job
English language ability

I can fully agree with this.

The whole English language in the US subject is one of the few issues in this country that actually angers me quite considerably. Don't know why, but everyone has their few triggers, and that is one of mine. I'm not going to get started aside from saying that it'll never happen because we want everyone to feel good and welcomed in this state. Make sure to Press 1 for English.


justplugit,
To answer your question, lock down the doors except to those in Fly Rod's post.