Mass. weighs tougher protections for striped bass - Page 4 - Striper Talk Striped Bass Fishing, Surfcasting, Boating

CowHunter · 12-06-2009, 09:03 AM

Doublerunner, well to bad for you if you take offense. My post was directed at people to whom it applies. People trying to change rules to better benifit them, have nothing better than trying to ruin the lives of hard working people....

CowHunter · 12-06-2009, 09:06 AM

Backbeach, not everyone from out of state is poaching or ice fishing, some of the worst offenders are in your backyard!

CowHunter · 12-06-2009, 09:10 AM

Brian, No Backbeach is refering to getting rid of all the out of staters with commercial permits period. They dont want out of staters coming up and catching THEIR fish. Been trying to get it done for years.

ProfessorM · 12-06-2009, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowHunter

Brian, No Backbeach is refering to getting rid of all the out of staters with commercial permits period. They dont want out of staters coming up and catching THEIR fish. Been trying to get it done for years.

What Mike said sounds good to me

CowHunter · 12-06-2009, 09:12 AM

JohnnyD, plain and simple, there are those that play by the rules and those that dont like in everything else...

CowHunter · 12-06-2009, 09:23 AM

Makai, if youre gonna make it a gamefish then why be allowed to kill anyfish??? Take away the comm catch but let recs kill theres.

The Decline in the numbers of bass is not to to the 20 some odd days of the Mass Commercial season. That entire biomass is taking a pounding from December through June. Ill say it agian, Many of you guys havent got a clue what goes on down south of you, You just complain when the fish dont show up in new England and blame it on 20 days of commercial season. There is no comparison whatsoever!

Doublerunner · 12-06-2009, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowHunter

Doublerunner, well to bad for you if you take offense. My post was directed at people to whom it applies. People trying to change rules to better benifit them, have nothing better than trying to ruin the lives of hard working people....

Everyone wants the rules to benefit them and you're no different.

I personally support that rec's should only be allowed one fish per outing and I'd dare say only 1 fish per week.

I also think charter boats should be limited to what can be kept on each outing no matter how many passengers they have.

I will also admit to not knowing enough of how commercial fishing works so I will not lump everyone together but I do know human nature. And whether you are commercial or rec or charter there are some people that are responsible and follow guidelines and instincts that will allow for the fishery to survive for generations. And then there are those that only care about themselves for the here and now and don't care what damage they do. And we're not even talking about businesses that kill fish with their pollution and toxins here either.

As I stated earlier I do not want to see any one's livelihood taken away. I do feel if there is an effort on all fronts then it may work. In the short term there may be a moratorium, who knows. Quantity limits and slot limits seem the best way to start. But enforcement on all fronts with stiff penalties that include large fines, jail time, and loss of equipment with well publicized media reports would also go a long way in detracting those that break the law. And the only way to enforce is to have more people out there which would mean higher costs for everyone to fish. When it comes down to it the only people that can have a true effect on improving the stock is those that are fishing for it and if we can't work together and improve it ourselves ( which has already been proven over and over ) then the states and feds will impose stricter regs and higher costs on all of us.

And again I'll say an even bigger problem is the menhaden draggers

Doublerunner · 12-06-2009, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowHunter

Makai, if youre gonna make it a gamefish then why be allowed to kill anyfish??? Take away the comm catch but let recs kill theres.

The Decline in the numbers of bass is not to to the 20 some odd days of the Mass Commercial season. That entire biomass is taking a pounding from December through June. Ill say it agian, Many of you guys havent got a clue what goes on down south of you, You just complain when the fish dont show up in new England and blame it on 20 days of commercial season. There is no comparison whatsoever!

Would it be better if you had 60 days of commercial fishing with the same poundage limits? Let's not focus on the amount of days and instead focus on the amount and size of each catch

I agree that what happens down south needs to be rectified ( and I believe will be as more states come in line ) but don't use what happens elsewhere as an excuse to do it everywhere

As a rec if I catch and keep 1 - 6 fish a week I am not killing off generations of fish for years to come as there are still huge amounts of fish in that pack to still re-generate. As a commercial if you are sitting on top of a large school of fish and take them all out you are also wiping away generations of future fish from that pack. Perhaps then extending the commercial season to a larger amount of days....say 60 or so...but reduce the amount that can be taken daily, weekly, and monthly would go a long way towards not wiping out complete generations of fish

CowHunter · 12-06-2009, 10:05 AM

In mass the commercial season is spread out to 20 some odd commercial days over say 5-6 weeks. There are different bodies of fish that show up in different areas dependent on the bait. Fish move, A big body of fish may show up and stay only for a tide, day, week, or until a weather change. Fewer fish have shown up the last 2-3 years. I personally like it harder the better. In any case there is a problem with fewer fish. I wont be one to say that the fish in buzzards bay are wiped out, they just dont show there the last 2 years or so in the numbers they have. Quicks hole hasnt had the fish. Weather, bait deffinatly are factors. The bait showed up in April through May frm NJ through Mass. In June we had unprecedented rain, maybe the bait moved out due to salinity, in either case they didnt come back, and niether did the fish. You cant blame the Mass Commercials for that. There is a big difference recreationally / charters pounding an entire biomass that is staged in its wintering grounds or transitory moving up the coast where they are pounded day to day in huge numbers. Recs in VA probably kill more fish in a week than the entire mass comercial season. Just pound the school day in and day out! Look at the commercial methods for harvesting striped bass down in Md, NC, VA... No pinhookers there! break out the nets boys!
I do believe there is a change in pattern also, alot of fish are staying offshore with the bait, well over 3 miles. Theres few inshore baitfish anymore in NE. Grubbing on crabs, lobsters, and reef fish... They are with the miles of sand eals and herring. Cant blame for no fish on the back beaches to mass commercial either. Some people just cant adapt when it gets harder and you have to change, they dont understand the fish but they want to manage the fishery....Might as well let Obama regulate striped bass...

Brian L · 12-06-2009, 10:10 AM

Perhaps then extending the commercial season to a larger amount of days....say 60 or so...but reduce the amount that can be taken daily, weekly, and monthly would go a long way towards not wiping out complete generations of fish

I've liked The RI comm set up until two years ago, when they closed Fridays and Saturdays (nice job by the weekday guys' lobby to keep the guys like me who work another job all week from selling on weekends). RI season happens twice a year and the daily limit is five (landings Sun-Thursday), instead of the 30 in Mass. Five fish works out good enough to be worth it for part time comms (like myself). Although I'm not sure the guys who depend on the dough would want to give up that bigger limit in Mass. Sounds like they won't have a choice.

CowHunter · 12-06-2009, 10:13 AM

Doublerunner, there is a whole different mentality in the south.... When Chesapeake Bay is open in November and December, you cant get a room, house on the northside. If you dont get to the ramp early you are out of luck and The Ramp in Kiptopeke holds more cars than all the southshore ramps in mass combined! Every Charterboat from NC and VA is pounding the bay and rec guys from several states. As soon as they shut the bay down Jan 1 and make it catch and release it is a barren wasteland. Nobody is going down there for catch and release!!! Hotels are empty, no rentals, no charters, tackleshops are closed, all restaurants stores in the area are empty. Need to go look for yourselves.... Just a few of my own observations and my own experience. Not what somebody tells my or what I may have heard....

CowHunter · 12-06-2009, 10:21 AM

Brian, That is just to keep it for guys that are Full time commercial. Gotta do what you can to adapt. I do have a full time job myself before Charters and commercial and I still do about 150 days a year on the water. I still do consider my charters and commercial as full time work. If that was all I did I cant see how I could survive paying all expenses, and put away money for healthcare, pension, kids college and so on.... Making it harder and harder to make a living off the water. Its become a rich mans game, thats all it will be if it were a catch and release gamefish only....

Doublerunner · 12-06-2009, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowHunter

Doublerunner, there is a whole different mentality in the south.... When Chesapeake Bay is open in November and December, you cant get a room, house on the northside. If you dont get to the ramp early you are out of luck and The Ramp in Kiptopeke holds more cars than all the southshore ramps in mass combined! Every Charterboat from NC and VA is pounding the bay and rec guys from several states. As soon as they shut the bay down Jan 1 and make it catch and release it is a barren wasteland. Nobody is going down there for catch and release!!! Hotels are empty, no rentals, no charters, tackleshops are closed, all restaurants stores in the area are empty. Need to go look for yourselves.... Just a few of my own observations and my own experience. Not what somebody tells my or what I may have heard....

That will have to be changed. What happens in one area can and does affect the whole striper coast. As I've said we all have to do our part

How close to shore can comm's fish?

CowHunter · 12-06-2009, 10:53 AM

I somehow doubt stripersforever is gonna get a warm welcome in the South! The boys down there are trying to get the eez zone opened to 12 miles so they can kill more and it aint commercials....Ive seen boats down there tossing dead keeper bass out of their coolers when they get bigger ones so they can have more meat!

MAKAI · 12-06-2009, 11:29 AM

Seems like the Bass is the new Buffalo. Get them while you can.
Of all the fish that are on the brink. This one gets it from both sides.
There are so many one sided opinions as what to do we've become myopic.

C. H.
I have sold fish since 1970. Seen the halcyon days and the barren days. I gave my permit up 2 yrs ago, Just didn't feel like killing them anymore. But that's just me. I wish all states would be hook and line only, with the potential to let every fish breed a few times at least before being killed, but that's not going to happen. It's not a matter of who gets to keep what but keeping the fish population healthy. There are far more issues regarding that problem than just rec vs com. No easy answers.

CowHunter · 12-06-2009, 11:45 AM

Makai, I just have a problem with organizations like striper forever who are blaming the state of Striped Bass on Mass Comercial Pin Hookers. They are trying to change the rules so it is easier for rich yuppies to catch fish and have a "Super" day on the water with no regard for anyone else. There are morons who have no clue whatsoever, they just want to go out and catch countless of fish on their fly rods and not work for it.... They have no idea As to all the other factors that are causing the sad state of the striped bass fishery. Shutting down Mass commercial isnt going to make a bit of difference......

Doublerunner · 12-06-2009, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowHunter

Makai, I just have a problem with organizations like striper forever who are blaming the state of Striped Bass on Mass Comercial Pin Hookers. They are trying to change the rules so it is easier for rich yuppies to catch fish and have a "Super" day on the water with no regard for anyone else. There are morons who have no clue whatsoever, they just want to go out and catch countless of fish on their fly rods and not work for it.... They have no idea As to all the other factors that are causing the sad state of the striped bass fishery. Shutting down Mass commercial isnt going to make a bit of difference......

WOW. You just convinced me more than ever of what needs to be done. Looks like you're going to have to heed your own words

ADAPT. 'cuz change is coming

CowHunter · 12-06-2009, 12:13 PM

Here in NJ we used to have a great summer fishery. Catch plenty of good sized fish off the surf and boats in June, July, August, September pluggin and eelin. It has been over ten years since that fishery disapeared...
Look at the Cape back beaches the run of migratory big fish from Late August thru november, that has deteriorated since 2002-2003 to being non-existant. Thousand Pound nights off the surf are a distant memory and probably will never come back. ill put stripersforever up there with the seal lovers...
The whole Rhode island Mass shoreline during the summer and fall months is but a single digit fraction of what it used to be.

Cant blame mass commercial for all that....

CowHunter · 12-06-2009, 12:24 PM

I always adapt and change, im not one complaining and trying to change the rules....The fishery has changed drastically with many factors causing it. I will always find fish, the people that cant adapt are trying to change the rules to bring the fish to them and in the end it wont make a difference. You always have to go to fish to catch fish....

CowHunter · 12-06-2009, 12:26 PM

Change may be coming, but it may not always be for the better.....

numbskull · 12-06-2009, 12:27 PM

Too many different valid reasons to fish, too many different user groups, too many conflicting agendas, too much misinformation, too little accurate information to make good decisions, too much shouting, too many insults, too many closed minds, too much rage against the machine, too much hate.

It is not just the bass that are in trouble.

Pete_G · 12-06-2009, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowHunter

Makai, I just have a problem with organizations like striper forever who are blaming the state of Striped Bass on Mass Comercial Pin Hookers. They are trying to change the rules so it is easier for rich yuppies to catch fish and have a "Super" day on the water with no regard for anyone else. There are morons who have no clue whatsoever, they just want to go out and catch countless of fish on their fly rods and not work for it.... They have no idea As to all the other factors that are causing the sad state of the striped bass fishery. Shutting down Mass commercial isnt going to make a bit of difference......

I think you need to be careful who you malign in your cause. It's a big, complex mess out there; Numbskull just stated it well above.

"There are morons who have no clue whatsoever, they just want to go out and catch countless of fish on their fly rods and not work for it...."

Change "fly rod" to "fishing rod" and that is what your average fisherman (blue collar and otherwise) wants. If you think otherwise you need to get out of your boat more often. Easy, shore based, and ideally daytime fishing. The blitz fisherman. That's just the reality of your recreational fisherman who hires you for charters, spends money on bait, plugs, tackle and more, buys a boat if he can afford it, etc. There's nothing wrong with that. (We'll ignore the effect he has by killing and keeping fish for the moment but that fact is of course tied tightly to some of the issues at hand...)

What that guy needs is bait along the shoreline since most fisherman don't fish from boats and can't "adapt" to an offshore striper fishery. They also, honestly, don't have the time to put in to follow the fish like you might.

I understand and agree with what you are arguing in a lot of respects about what's wrong with the Stripers Forever approach. Their cause and effect math doesn't entirely add up for me either. I'd just be careful who you kick dirt at as you wage war against them.

It might be good to be aware (and this is just my opinion) that what the general public likely wants really isn't that different from what Stripers Forever wants.

CowHunter · 12-06-2009, 01:12 PM

Pete G.... If the fishery changes and the fishery stays offshore there are no regulations you can impose to bring the fishery inshore. It may be decades if ever for that to happen, you never know. How the hell can you force the fishery to come inshore? Whipe out the bait offshore? I may be in the boat more, even though Ive spent thousands of hours over the years on the surf, but I know alot more than you think as to what is going on with the shoreline fishery in more than just one state. The guys may want a blitz, everybody does, especially comm guys! Truth of the matter is times change. The guys in the northeast are complaining about the surf, look at VA and NC. Imagine seeing Miles of gannets diving but the fish dont come onshore, EVER. That is the reality. The surf bites of VA, MD, NC are a thing of the past. What if the same holds true for new england. Off course you always get the stragglers. I will always adapt and change weather I like it or not? You think I like paying $4. a gallon, what about $5 or $6. Seee if you will make it a catch and release only gamefish coast wide. It will look like Kiptopeke VA in January...

CowHunter · 12-06-2009, 01:19 PM

Pete G.... Would Saltwaters edge business Begin to Boom if the Made striped Bass a gamefish only. Catch and release only??? I seriously doubt it...

CowHunter · 12-06-2009, 01:39 PM

http://www.nefsc.noaa.gov/sos/spsyn/...es/fig40_2.gif

Pete_G · 12-06-2009, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowHunter

Pete G.... Would Saltwaters edge business Begin to Boom if the Made striped Bass a gamefish only. Catch and release only??? I seriously doubt it...

I don't have any interest in a no-take fishery. Just a healthy, accessible fishery for fisherman (rec and comm). That's what's good for MY interests.

Anyways, I'm arguing your cause, indirectly.

It just struck me that you took the classic "divided we fall" type stand; an everyone's against me and the commercials when I just don't see it that way.

I just think there's a LARGE middle of the road that is the average fisherman that has nothing against commercial fishing. Not many people would claim to understand ALL the issues, very few if any do.

My point was I wouldn't want to push that guy into a camp against what you want by basically telling him he's an idiot if he can't adapt. Or maybe explain more clearly why their view or point doesn't hold water instead of assuming they are "rich yuppies", "can't adapt".

For example, I feel the Stripers Forever "fish are more valuable alive then dead" doesn't hold water if the shore fisherman around here can't get at them. I wish they'd use their clout to help understand why baby bunker seem so scarce in the fall.

Just a tactical observation, take it for what it's worth.

Too bad there isn't a "Stripers Foreveryone" to get behind.

CowHunter · 12-06-2009, 02:32 PM

My problem is the rec catch down the coast is far greater than the com catch and it isn't enough for the rec guys They want more. They want a gamefish, but they want to be allowed to keep fish to. Give the mass com poundage to other states. Or better yet sell it out for a buck a fish bonus tag. The same people that want that want a 20" slot, they don't need to say more in my opinion. I really believe they don't have a clue in understanding the fishery....
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Pete_G · 12-06-2009, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowHunter

I really believe they don't have a clue in understanding the fishery....
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I think that would apply to most people every where. It's probably the biggest problem.

MikeToole · 12-06-2009, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowHunter

I somehow doubt stripersforever is gonna get a warm welcome in the South! The boys down there are trying to get the eez zone opened to 12 miles so they can kill more and it aint commercials....Ive seen boats down there tossing dead keeper bass out of their coolers when they get bigger ones so they can have more meat!

Stripers Forever fully understand this. They know that the Va and NC guys would kill ever fish in the ocean. I'm not a SF member and I am not in full agreement with what they want but I understand what their doing and agree with much of it.

They have one real focus point, stripers become a game fish. They understand that the only way to do that is for recreational fisherman to obtain the controlling voice at ASMFC stripe bass board. Having Mass end commercial fishing is not their end goal. It is just a step towards their end goal. If they can get three states to end commercial fishing the board would now have a lean towards the recreational ficherman. Then it would be possible to gain game fish status.

Most of the comments being made here are only looking at it from the present state of the ASMFC borad make-up and that this is the end point rather then a step towards a goal. Saying that the Mass quota will be given to another state is based on the boards present make up. If Mass changes this will make a real difference, get one or two more states to change, then we would see a real difference.

They also know that as long as the board continues it's present make up it is almost a waste of time to try and get them to reduce the catch numbers. Right now it is a fight to just stop them from increasing the numbers.

numbskull · 12-06-2009, 03:14 PM

So why is what is left of the striped bass population offshore?

Well, gee, what happened to the fish genetically ingrained to feed inshore............eaten for pleasure and profit.
What happened to the menhaden they eat.........taken commercially.
What about the squid.....taken commercially.
What about the scup.......taken commercially.
What about the lobsters......taken commercially.
What about the herring.....killed as commercial bycatch.

As for why there is bait explosion offshore.....well what happened to the fish that eat it?

Cod...........wiped out commercially.
Pollock........hammered commercially.
Tuna......nearly wiped out commercially.
Halibut........wiped out commercially.
Haddock........they're coming back because the enviro's got a judge involved.

Between wiping out codfish and creating an offshore niche full of sand eels......... hammering any breeding size bass that take an inshore route year after year.........and wiping out anything for bass to eat inshore......is it any mystery that what left of the striped bass population is offshore.

The public's demand for seafood and the commercial interests that benefit from that demand (with fishery management in their pocket) has GREATLY diminished the quality of the inshore fishing for all species targeted by recreational fishermen. Nothing wrong with that in general if you don't like to fish. Still, doing so has diminished the quality of the recreational fisherman's lives, and hurt the livelihood of those who depend on them.

Sadly, fishermen (recreational or commercial) are never going to fix this, too much stupidity and greed to put fishery recovery first. As the codfish situation has shown, the best hope are the enviro's and legal system (read CLF).........which is where this is headed soon. We'll live to see the restrictions, but not the benefits.