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Political Threads This section is for Political Threads - Enter at your own risk. If you say you don't want to see what someone posts - don't read it :hihi:

 
 
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Old 09-01-2010, 06:54 AM   #1
fishpoopoo
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I think he's got a lot of credibility on the issue, but seems to ignore the market forces that certainly exploited the room to move. There are root causes and symptoms, but symptoms can often be managed through regulation. Not always the right thing, but perhaps a part of the solution.

Additionally, people should look at this as a non-partisan problem. Some love to pounce on Barney as the birther of the issue, but everybody in politics has pushed for home ownership as it's a great election issue...even Bush.

-spence
"Market forces?"

Jesus Spence, you really need to bone up on the issue.

As far as Bawney, he should be lined up and money-shot for treason. But you're right, he's not alone in deserving blame.

There is so much open source info out there that is damning to the democrats (on the affordable housing issue), it boggles the mind.

http://financialservices.house.gov/LtrBushGSEs.pdf

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Old 09-01-2010, 09:58 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by fishpoopoo View Post
"Market forces?"

Jesus Spence, you really need to bone up on the issue.
Please elaborate, as you seem to have interpreted my statement in a very specific manner.

As for bones, Nebe has one for ya

-spence
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Old 09-01-2010, 10:00 AM   #3
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The dumbing down of lending standards, and the manipulation of interest rates are NOT "market forces."

They are government policies.

And if Nebe has starting blowing glass dildoes again I'd have to start worrying about him.

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Old 09-01-2010, 10:27 AM   #4
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And if Nebe has starting blowing glass dildoes again I'd have to start worrying about him.
You are implying he never stopped....

Bryan

Originally Posted by #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&
"For once I agree with Spence. UGH. I just hope I don't get the urge to go start buying armani suits to wear in my shop"
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Old 09-01-2010, 10:37 AM   #5
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Well, he DOES get requests from the ladies for them.

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Old 09-01-2010, 05:25 PM   #6
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Well, he DOES get requests from the ladies for them.
Ladies?

Bryan

Originally Posted by #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&
"For once I agree with Spence. UGH. I just hope I don't get the urge to go start buying armani suits to wear in my shop"
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Old 09-01-2010, 10:37 AM   #7
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The dumbing down of lending standards, and the manipulation of interest rates are NOT "market forces."

They are government policies.
I agree, but the lowering of interest rates led investors to seek better returns which came from new lending products that took advantage of the lower standards...did they not?

Hence my comment about the market exploiting the room to move.

-spence
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Old 09-01-2010, 12:40 PM   #8
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absurdly low interest rates sparked mortgage originations and speculation in housing.

lots of crazy loans were made to people who weren't going to pay them back.

that's not market forces. that's manipulation.

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Old 09-01-2010, 01:09 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by fishpoopoo View Post
absurdly low interest rates sparked mortgage originations and speculation in housing.

lots of crazy loans were made to people who weren't going to pay them back.

that's not market forces. that's manipulation.

Yup, simple solution-- 20% down, and good credit rating.

FHA still only requiring 3-4% down.

When people have to work and save a 20% down payment they have a tendency
to take care of their property and think twice before foreclosure as they have
their sweat and tears in their house/investment.

" Choose Life "
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Old 09-01-2010, 04:11 PM   #10
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Yup, simple solution-- 20% down, and good credit rating.

FHA still only requiring 3-4% down.

When people have to work and save a 20% down payment they have a tendency
to take care of their property and think twice before foreclosure as they have
their sweat and tears in their house/investment.
Absolutely. For most, putting 20% down also demonstrates that you can be responsible with your money. For a $250k house, it doesn't take nearly as much commitment to scratch together $8000.
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Old 09-01-2010, 08:17 PM   #11
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absurdly low interest rates sparked mortgage originations and speculation in housing.

lots of crazy loans were made to people who weren't going to pay them back.

that's not market forces. that's manipulation.
Certainly, but I was speaking more to US borrowing rates (like 1%) and big outside investors seeking better returns. It's not like people were looking for a way to package mortgage backed securities just so banks could issue more loans...there was a demand that drove the process from both sides.

-spence
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Old 09-02-2010, 03:17 PM   #12
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Certainly, but I was speaking more to US borrowing rates (like 1%) and big outside investors seeking better returns. It's not like people were looking for a way to package mortgage backed securities just so banks could issue more loans...there was a demand that drove the process from both sides.

-spence
With 1% rates, folks were more inclined to borrow money and plow them into low-returning securities. It's called leverage. To retail investors it's called margin.

Take a $1,000 face value bond with an annual coupon of 3%. That bond throws off $30 of interest per year.

Your return on invested capital, if you plow $1,000 of your own money into that bond, is 3% per annum.

Take the same scenario. But instead of plunking down $1,000 of your own money, you borrow $900 and only put $100 of your own money down.

You are still earning $30 in interest.

You are paying 1% on the $900 you borrowed, or $9.

On a net basis, you are earning $30-9 = $21.

$21 divided by $100 of your own money = 21% return on invested capital. That compares with 3% ROIC if you put $1,000 of your own money up.

This is all hunky dory, as long as rates stay at 1% and that your banker doesn't call in your loan and your investors in your hedge fund (the guys who furnished the $100 of capital you plowed into that $1,000 bond) don't ask for their money back.

From 2001 through 2007, this is exactly what happened, with institutional investors taking advantage of artificially low interest rates.

This caused two undesirable things:

1) a massive increase in borrowing and leverage to amplify returns
2) rampant speculation in all asset classes

When subprime CDO's started to blow up (the underlying loans weren't being repaid), guess what happened?

1) The bond we used as the example above dropped in price
2) Banks started calling their loans in
3) Nervous hedge fund investors started asking for redemptions.

So the "market forces" you refer to, which were all motivated by ridiculously low interest rates, coupled with the spark of bad sub-prime loans, initiated a massive unwinding of leverage.

That $900 you borrowed - you had to pay it back quick, so you sold your $1,000 bond. Unfortunately, due to market conditions, you took a loss on that bond. It dropped to $750 face value.

Two things happened: As a result of the drop in price, the $100 equity financing the $1,000 investment got wiped out. Also, you couldn't pay back the full amount of the $900 you borrowed from a bank. You could only pay back $750.

Repeat this over a skillion times - and you can see why the financial markets tanked. This not only happened with bonds, but with stocks, foreign currencies, and commodity futures and all sorts of instruments (hell, even a few plugs were involved I'm sure). And we haven't even talked about the $1.4 quadrillion (notional amount) of credit default swaps outstanding at the time.

Getting back to my original point: the "market foces" that you refer to that eventually bit us in the ass came about due to lower interest rates (government policy).

NONE of this would have happened if the federal reserve did not bring rates to almost zero % from 2001-2004.

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