Why can't teachers/cops live with 401(k)'s instead of pensions?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Chesapeake Bill

Jim,

Depsite your acertions, I do get it. You do not. The Nobel Prize winning economist George Friedman even understands the value that government research puts into the economy. Were it not for DARPA attempting to share research we might not have the internet, arguably one of the largest economic drivers of the modern era. Without scientists at NASA trying to build a better space ship we would not have the IPod. Government's role (particularly the military machine's) is to absorb the high cost of product development through research so it can then find comemrcial applications. Sure you can pick some obscure research about bovine flatulence research and argue its validity. What you cannot do is back up you statments about public servants building wealth. Public servants oversee the billions spent on research every year so that our economy continues to thrive and rebound. If the students are not educated they cannot compete and the economy suffers. If crime goes up businesses leave. Therefore public service does help build wealth. I find your tirades like those of a big bully who fires shots across the bow of others but calls foul when they fire back.

If you're saying that some publicly funded entities to produce valuable work, you get no argument from me.

However, the facts are that (1) in CT, Mass, and RI, we have tax rates that are higher than average.

(2) despite those high tax rates, we have managed to spend way more than we have, menaing we have lots of debt

(3) a huge reason for that over-spending is bennies to public employees.

Those 3 facts tell me that teh benefits promised to public employees are more than the taxpayers can reasonably afford. Pointing out that NASA does some worthwhile things, does not refute my point.

[Chesapeake Bill]

I'd be the first to press the button and send you wherever you want to go...

For every article that says they are overcompensated there is another in a different paper that says they are undercompensated.If you base your reasoning on the Moonies you are putting yourself at risk. Do a little research on your own instead of taking everything at face value or spitting out sound bites. Your credibility wanes...

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Chesapeake Bill

I'd be the first to press the button and send you wherever you want to go...

For every article that says they are overcompensated there is another in a different paper that says they are undercompensated.If you base your reasoning on the Moonies you are putting yourself at risk. Do a little research on your own instead of taking everything at face value or spitting out sound bites. Your credibility wanes...

my credability?

how is it possible that employees making far more than their counterparts in the private sector, recieving much more generous benefits and guarantees(or do you have an article that shows they're not?) which are bankrupting their "employer" at every level of government are "undercompensated" ?

your reasoning will lead to oblivion

this is like your wife maxing out all of your credit cards and then you ask her how she's planning to pay for it and she tells you that you are going to pay for it and that she plans to keep on spending because her spending creates your wealth

WAKE UP!!!

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Chesapeake Bill

For every article that says they are overcompensated there is another in a different paper that says they are undercompensated. ...

Please post a credible source that suggests that spending on municipal employees is not putting states and towns in a huge hole, or that municipal employees compensation is falling further behind private sector employees.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by scottw

•Pay. The average federal salary has grown 33% faster than inflation since 2000. USA TODAY reported in March that the federal government pays an average of 20% more than private firms for comparable occupations. The analysis did not consider differences in experience and education.

I can tell you from my experience, where I'm working now, that the Government employees make a shade less than the private sector for the IT field. I work for an IT contractor and I make about 3% more than my equivelant government counterpart. My health insurance is also better and my contribution is roughly half of theirs. They do have it better in time off where they start w/ 15 days off and I started w/ 13...and they receive 13 sick days to my 5. I am Private sector versus the public sector (DOD).

I can also tell you that I am making less here than my last job in the private sector. So in my experience the Government is less than or equal too the private sector as far as pay. Not twice as much.

As I stated this is in the IT field so I can't vouch for other fields in Government.

As to the Monkeys and Peanuts analogy.....the IT field would be extremely affected by sub par pay and benefits. IT Guys notoriously move around in search of better pay/benefits, so if you didn't make things comparable to Private sector you would have an IT Workforce in the DOD that was made up of tech school graduates that probably wouldn't spend more than 2 years on the job before leaving. How efficient is that for an organisation to operate....6 months to ramp up your talent then they leave a year/year and a half down the road.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

I can tell you from my experience, where I'm working now, that the Government employees make a shade less than the private sector for the IT field. I work for an IT contractor and I make about 3% more than my equivelant government counterpart. My health insurance is also better and my contribution is roughly half of theirs. They do have it better in time off where they start w/ 15 days off and I started w/ 13...and they receive 13 sick days to my 5. I am Private sector versus the public sector (DOD).

I can also tell you that I am making less here than my last job in the private sector. So in my experience the Government is less than or equal too the private sector as far as pay. Not twice as much.

As I stated this is in the IT field so I can't vouch for other fields in Government.

As to the Monkeys and Peanuts analogy.....the IT field would be extremely affected by sub par pay and benefits. IT Guys notoriously move around in search of better pay/benefits, so if you didn't make things comparable to Private sector you would have an IT Workforce in the DOD that was made up of tech school graduates that probably wouldn't spend more than 2 years on the job before leaving. How efficient is that for an organisation to operate....6 months to ramp up your talent then they leave a year/year and a half down the road.

That's an interesting observation, but as you said, it's in our national security interests to have qualified IT guys working for the DOD. Furthermore, I have never seen data that suggests that federal spending of DOD IT employees is the #1 driver of the federal deficit. However, state spending on benefits of municipal employees is a huge driver of state/town deficits.

In other words, DOD IT employees are not pushing the federal government to the brink of bankruptcy. But retirement/healthcare benefits to municipal employees absolutely are pushing local governments to the brink of bankruptcy.

That couple in my neighborhood (both public schoolteachers) make a combined salary of about $150k. That's more than double the median household income in CT, and they work far fewer hours. And with the bennies they get, the difference is much greater. And no matter how bad they are at their job, with tenure, it's virtually impossible to get rid of them (not that they are bad teachers, i have no idea).

And cops being able to collect pensions after 20 years, at age 43? While everyone else hopes to retire at 65?

If everyone here is comfortable with forking over another paycheck or two every year, so that teachers and cops can keep benefits that dwarf what's available to the taxpayers, then we should do it. That's how democracy works.

I just don't see why they deserve so much more than what's available to those of us stuck with the bill, and I'm not sure any post here directly addressed that.

[scottw]

I really wonder what some believe is going to happen, boatloads of money will suddenly appear to make things all better??? the feds have been subsidizing the states have been subsidizing the towns and cities and that is OVER! 14 TRILLION dollars OVER!

this isn't a little bump in the road...this is a sink hole

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I have never seen data that suggests that federal spending of DOD IT employees is the #1 driver of the federal deficit.

You didn't read Scott's Post above?

Granted it was for all federal employees...not just IT...then again I was just putting forth what I've seen

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

You didn't read Scott's Post above?

Granted it was for all federal employees...not just IT...then again I was just putting forth what I've seen

I did indeed read it. And from what I read, there was a concern with benefits paid to all federal workers, not salaries paid to IT contractors.

Dad, in your area, do most IT workers in the private scetor have guaranteed pensions? Not here in CT.

The biggest challenge by far for the federal budget is unfunded obligations for Medicare. However, the majority of states that have huge debt, are in that posiiton largely because of public employee benefits.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I did indeed read it. And from what I read, there was a concern with benefits paid to all federal workers, not salaries paid to IT contractors.

I was drawing a comparison to the Federal vs. Private sector salaries in the IT field. That the federal salaries are below or equal too private.....not grossly above.