Japan earthquake/tsunami

[Raven]

it has happened at close to 200 year intervals and they are over 300
years now since the last correction.

[O.D. Mike]

Originally Posted by iamskippy

here is what they really dont want you to know,

I can totally hear Godzilla!!!

[O.D. Mike]

Originally Posted by Saltheart

There have only ever been 4 recorded higher than 8.9 since I guess they had the ability to measure going back to the mid 1700. 3 of these were in fairly remote areas but one was in Indonesia recently. I doubt indonesia has the population density of Japan.

The deadliest earthquake was in a populated area of China. It was only an 8.0 . You got to figure that one 10 times stronger in a densely populated area like japan is going to affect a lot of people. Hopefully the better infrastructure of Japan vs China will mean more rescued , less diseases after , etc. Luckily , this one's center was a long way off the coast not on the land but the down side of that is that being in the water , it caused the tsunami.

The 8 foot shift is the type of thing they are worried about as the moon sweeps by so close during the coming 2 weeks. They liken it to a high tide but it will be the land rising and falling as well as the oceans of course. Lots of earthquakes are do to a pinned area of the faults letting go. There is a tremendous amount of energy stored when a strong pin locks in the land masses that are trying to slide across one another. the huge shifts expected do to the added moon pull can cause these pinned faults to unlock and slide a lot all at once.

lets hope there are no more as big as this one in Japan.

They say New England is not immune. We haven't had a bad earthquake in a long time but some say its do to a strong pin and that when or if it lets go , we could experience a really big one. Of course the most famous one talked about in the USA is the San Andreas fault in california that people say will "cause part of Caifornia to fall into the pacific ocean." Events like this one in japan make it seem a lot more feasible than just what is mentioned in Sci Fi movies.

As we all know its only a matter of time before it happens here. I remember seeing something on landslides coming from Africa? Mentioned if it happened the sea surge would reach 5 miles in in the Boston area. There is a piece on this link from the Canary Islands, interesting read

Atlantic Ocean Tsunami Threat from Earthquakes, Landslides

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Saltys

If there was a mile wide whirlpool that was s#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g down sea water....where does the water go..does it stay underground now forever and does the ocean level now drop because of the water? Or does it maintain the level of ocean height and filter back into the environment?

It actually displaces the water, which generates the energy for the tsunami. If you imaging the length of the fault, x the displacement (8ft) all of the displaced water does not go into the crust.

it is a subduction zone, and water circulates down into the earth (crust and mantle) as the ocean floor is subducted under Japan, but it is mostly in the pore spaces of the sediment on the ocean floor and in the cracks in the underlying rocks..

but.. caveat.. I'm a glacial/coastal guy.. not a seismologist!

[Raven]

what are they gonna do with this enormous amount of debris?

i mean they are an ISLAND and allot of the material was imported
over many years so that means huge Barges and euks trucks hauling it where
to the ocean? China wont touch it now that it's radio active.

[Nebe]

Burn it is my guess
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[UserRemoved]

"China wont touch it now that it's radio active."

R u kidding me?

They'll eat this stuff up. It'll be in your kids toys next year.

[UserRemoved]

tnx Brian didn't understand how that worked.

[Swimmer]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

It actually displaces the water, which generates the energy for the tsunami. If you imaging the length of the fault, x the displacement (8ft) all of the displaced water does not go into the crust.

it is a subduction zone, and water circulates down into the earth (crust and mantle) as the ocean floor is subducted under Japan, but it is mostly in the pore spaces of the sediment on the ocean floor and in the cracks in the underlying rocks..

but.. caveat.. I'm a glacial/coastal guy.. not a seismologist!

So is the speed of the tsunami, english meaning is death wave, like a wave going thr speed of sound minus the friction caused by the water itself.

[stripermaineiac]

Scarie stuff this. 8 ft #^&#^&#^&#^& of that much land is gonna cause a problem someplace else on this marble we live on. Take a frisbee and put a piece of gum under the lip and throw it. Wobbles like a drunken top. We learned about that in college. Where is the gum gonna cause the next peoblems. that's only a few trillion billion tons of land that moves 8 ft over.

[UserRemoved]

Watch this video. Never seen anything like this in my life. Water pulsating out of the ground.

Gotta Watch: iReporters capture scope of quake – This Just In - CNN.com Blogs

[Van]

The dome blew off a second reactor today. Explosion shot it 1000 feet into the air. It is unreal..That will likely lead to melt down at least in part as the fuel is still there and can't be flooded.

With no nuke power, that area will be without power for a long long time. It takes a good 10-15 years to build a plant to today's standards. That is once the actually get a license to build one. (add another 10 years)....
Those boiling water reactors are vintage (like Vermont Yankee). So there is no going back. They will be in a world of hurt for 20-30 years.

My company is looking for nuclear engineers (volunteers) in our group to go and work there. I don't think anyone is going to sign up.
I know I'm not.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Booger:
this should help clarify

http://www.iris.edu/hq/files/program..._IslandArc.mov

[JohnR]

Go into Google Earth, go to the big Earthquake icon off Sendai, and download the KMZ for the before / after satellite images. Damage is unreal.

[striperman36]

Originally Posted by PRBuzz

Heard a report/prediction that if you visualize the Pacific plate as having 4 corners, all 4 corners historically seem to have a "correction" in concert. So far 3 of the 4 corners have had events recently: Chile, NZ, Japan. The 4th corner is what Raven states.

Don't forget the 67 Alaskan earthquake.

[nightfighter]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Ross, read the link I posted. I'm no nuke but some of the nukes I've been following recommend that article as a pretty good primmer on whats happening.

Short version, none of the cores is going to go critical, they are all slowly cooling down. The 2 with the major issues now are being cooled with far from pure saltwater. The heat in the reactor, well short of creating fission and cooling, is still enough to separate the H2O into hydrogen and oxygen. When that is vented to the atmo/outer containment building (not pressure containment) that is what is exploding. The cores are still cooling down but are taking longer due to the tsunami and quake wiping out primary, secondary, and tertiary cooling systems.

I read it, John. Just not a believer. Another explosion just now in #2. Rods are exposed. I think a breach is possible, and that is, IMO, critical. No infrastructure to get whatever materials they need to fight this into place. I think they're screwed as far as keeping that plant under control. As I said, we are not getting the real story in realtime.

[striperman36]

NPR reported this morning no gas for firetrucks

[BigFish]

Not that the firetrucks can drive anywhere due to the debris everywhere!

[striperman36]

Originally Posted by BigFish

Not that the firetrucks can drive anywhere due to the debris everywhere!

Pumpin water can't do it without fuel

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by nightfighter

I read it, John. Just not a believer. Another explosion just now in #2. Rods are exposed. I think a breach is possible, and that is, IMO, critical. No infrastructure to get whatever materials they need to fight this into place. I think they're screwed as far as keeping that plant under control. As I said, we are not getting the real story in realtime.

I understand, but it is not a Chernobyl-case type incident. It really sucks and it will really suck even more with the potential to greatly suck. But it is not Chernobyl. There is also a lot of significantly bad info out there...

[striperman36]

Just had another explosiion at #2 717pm

[BigFish]

4th reactor just reported to be on fire now....a fourth reactor! Man can it get much worse.....unfortunately I think it will. Very, very sad indeed.

[Raider Ronnie]

Originally Posted by Nebe

damn...

Man this footage is unreal !
At around 1 minute that what I'm guessing a 60ft boat sucked under the bridge is amazing !
Looks like a toy getting tossed around !
Looked like the 2nd bigger boat was about to get sucked under bridge and you can see cars driving over the bridge.

[JohnR]

4th reactor was reported down for service with 5 and 6 so hopefully this is just facility based and the reactor is supposedly offline.

Problems on 2 are reported to indicate a breach in the primary containment unit. This is bad. Not Chernobyl bad but worse than T.M.I. bad.

[JohnR]

From one of our carriers in Yokosuka (close to Tokyo, about 150mi SSW of the plant):

From the CO, Fleet Activities Yokosuka:

****** FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE *******
.by Commander Fleet Activities Yokosuka on Monday, March 14, 2011 at 6:44pm.At approximately 0700 local (Japan) time, 15 March 2011, sensitive instrumentation on USS GEORGE WASHINGTON (CVN 73) pier-side in Yokosuka, detected low levels of radioactivity from the Fukushima Dai-Ichi Nuclear Power Plant. While there is no danger to the public, Commander, Naval Forces Japan is recommending limited precautionary measures for personnel on Fleet Activities Yokosuka and Naval Air Facility Atsugi, including:

A. Limiting outdoor activities.

B. Securing external ventilation systems as much as practical.

These measures are strictly precautionary in nature. We do not expect that any United States Federal radiation exposure limits will be exceeded even if no precautionary measures are taken. We are continuing to analyze the situation and will update you as we learn more.

[Saltheart]

Here's an analogy most fisherman may understand.

If you have ever melted lead to make sinkers , you know you can smell the lead. If you are a little above the melting , the lead smell is evident but if you screw up and get that lead a few hundred degrees above its melting point , the lead smell just reeks.

No heres why.

Atoms are always bouncing around and above the large masses there are actual atoms of the material that are in the air. Now we don't think of it as a vapor but in fact , there is some amount of vapor above even solids at room temp. Now as the materal nears its melting point , the amount of atoms as vapor above the solid surface goes up. When the material melts , there is a huge jump in the number of atooms that are vapor above the liquid , many times more than above the solid. Now as the liquid gets hotter and hotter above it original melting point , the vapor pressure (amount of atoms that are vapor) goes up at some exponential rate.

THe really bad Nuke stuff is the fuel itself that can melt (meltdown) if the control rods cannot slow the fission reaction and if the water cannot take away the heat. Too much heat and the uranium , etc melts and then its vapor pressure sky rockets. The vapor pressure can easily be envisioned as number of atoms , each one highly radioactive and deadly.

Now if you can keep the stuuf from actually melting , you can avoid the huge jump in the vapor pressure but remember , there is still some vapor pressore above the solid and its more , the hotter the solid , just like its more the hotter the liquid. So you do everything you can to keep those temps from going so high the stuff melts. Water is the coolant. However , its not going to cool the whole blob of fission material evenly. Some places are very hot , hot enough to first form steam , then the steam breaks down to H and O and then Boom. You have to take the risk of these H explosions (Actually are explosions) and steam explosions (too much water pressure in a sealed vessel and it bursts , what many would call an explosion too) because you have to try to keep everything cool as possible and try at all cost not to have molten uranium with no water on top of it because molten uranium without the water cover is going to be boiling off the most radioactive vapor aotms.


The whole thing is a nightmare as you risk lives and small explosions to prevent the big meltdown.

Now I don't think there is any way the reactor core can actually explode like an A bomb if that is what people are worrying about. That is actually something that is pretty hard to get started even when you want it to happen. . The biggest worry is the spread of the radioactive metals , etc if the core melts with a failure of both coolant and containment structures.

Now other stuff pics up radiation from the uranium. Th8ngs like the salt and other solids in the water. I'm not sure but I believe the water can actually get irradiated. Most of the time , this is a low level of radiation compared to the actual uranium . Some things , particularly heavy atoms , can pick up a lot of radiation. Its likely at this point that the radiation picked up by the Navy is from escaping water vapor and the contaminents in the water. Hopefully there isn't too much actual uranium atoms getting out.

[JohnR]

Scratch facility fire at Reactor 4

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/16/wo...uclear.html?hp

That fourth reactor had been turned off and was under refurbishment for months before the earthquake and tsunami hit the plant on Friday. But the plant contains spent fuel rods that were removed from the reactor, and experts guessed that the pool containing those rods had run dry, allowing the rods to overheat and catch fire. That is almost as dangerous as the fuel in working reactors melting down, because the spent fuel can also spew radioactivity into the atmosphere.

Pressure in 2 Reactor basically at nil? Game over.

[UserRemoved]

What most don't realize here is there was/is a working earthquake system on each of these plants which went off on all but one plant. When the sensors detect the earthquake they immediately drop Boron rods into the vessel to stop the reaction. Right now no reaction is taking place (planned) but you have to understand it takes days and WEEKS to cool this down normally from it's core operating temperature.

Google Boron and nuclear meltdown....it's pretty interesting.

The core temperature has to be over 4000 degrees F to melt the rods. I've seen numbers of 1000 and 2000 degrees discussed so far. The cores are cooling but it's going to take some serious time...

[PRBuzz]

Originally Posted by JohnR

4th reactor was reported down for service with 5 and 6 so hopefully this is just facility based and the reactor is supposedly offline.

Apparently it doesn't matter that reactors 4, 5, & 6 were off-line, they all still have fuel inside and are also overheating. ALL 6 REACTORS ARE IN JEOPARDY!!!

The Unit 4 reactor at the Fukushima Dai-ichi power plant caught fire earlier Tuesday and is believed to have caused a release of dangerous levels of radioactivity in the immediate area. Elevated radioactivity readings in surrounding regions were not high enough to pose a health threat, the government said.

Unit 4 was not operating at the time of the tsunami, but its backup power systems failed afterward, preventing cooling systems from working properly. Three reactors already have been wrecked by explosions and nuclear officials confirmed that temperatures in two other reactors that had been shut down for inspections were also rising.

The temperature of the water in the spent fuel storage pool for Unit 4 was 183 degrees Fahrenheit (84 degrees Celsius) on Monday, when it was last measured. No measurements have been available since then, Nishiyama said.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Saltys

What most don't realize here is there was/is a working earthquake system on each of these plants which went off on all but one plant. When the sensors detect the earthquake they immediately drop Boron rods into the vessel to stop the reaction. Right now no reaction is taking place (planned) but you have to understand it takes days and WEEKS to cool this down normally from it's core operating temperature.

Google Boron and nuclear meltdown....it's pretty interesting.

I believe the new plants even use a boron slurry as an extra measure. But all of this assumes the rods are submerged I believe...which is the issue.

Not looking good this morning. Let's hope for prevailing winds...

-spence