The Apology Tour continues

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

While the sensativities of the family members are important, the President is also responsible for the 90 thousand other service people still in harms way. If they believe an appology is the best tactic to further the mission there should be some respect for that. I'd be confident that this response was carefully planned and not some capitulation to fit a liberal stereotype.

I'd note that the Afgan Government appologized for the killings along with the US Government condemming "it in the strongest possible terms".

There should be no confusion that Obama was appologizing to the murders...that's not reading the facts.


Actually, by mentioning "uncesessarily violent behavior" I was explicitly labeling the "behavior" as "unecessary violence".


Launch a cruise missle at who?


It's a figure of speech, but perhaps a bad choice of words. The point is we need to get past the events and violence to keep the mission on track.


And he plays the Nazi card!

Remember here we're 10 years into a war that we'd really like to get out of. While we've been very successful in killing terrorists a military solution to the Taliban doesn't appear likely. Without the political support of the Afgani government and tribal leaders we're never going to have a smooth draw down. The PR battle here is critical.

We need to wind this thing down but some still want to position it as the Battle of Civilizations Bush's cronies postured after 9/11.

Others just want to play politics.

-spence

"the President is also responsible for the 90 thousand other service people still in harms way."

Yes, he is. And if apologizing to the murderers, rather than bringing them to justice, is what makes our troops safer, please explain how. Because I fail to see how.

"If they believe an appology is the best tactic to further the mission there should be some respect for that."

Oh, I see. So now you, Spence, are assuming that some sizable portion of our troops believe that we should be appeasing those who murder our troops, rather than killing them? By what divine right do you make that claim? By any chance, do you have some polls or US servicemen who think the best thing is to appease Islamic sociopaths, rather than bringing them to their knees?

Spence, you are entitled to your own opinions, inane as they may be. You are not entitled to your own facts, and there are no facts (nor any common sense) to suggest that coddling Al Queda makes us any safer. If Obama had a brain, he would realize that to maximize our safety, you destroy these people BEFORE they build up their capabilities.

"There should be no confusion that Obama was appologizing to the murders"

That's precisely what he did. Worse, by apoloigizing, he lends credibility to the insane notion that it's justifiable to be enraged if someone accidentally burns a piece of paper. It was a simple accident, nothing more. Obama went out of his way to suggest that those who burned the Koran would be punished, but he offers NO ASSURANCES that those who murdered US servicemen would be punished? Those are the facts Spence. Just because they make your guy look stupid, doesn't mean they aren't facts.

"Launch a cruise missle at who?"

Oh, I dunno. For starters, at anyone who believes that a piece of paper is worth more than innocent lives.

"The point is we need to get past the events and violence to keep the mission on track. "

Jesus God Almighty man!!! What color is the sky in the world you live in? The BAD GUYS, not us, committed the violence in this case. You're willing to say "sorry" and call it a day? What do you say to the families of the next innocent victim, knowing you did nothing to prevent further attacks?

Spence, there are bad people out there that you cannot wish away, nor can you ever make them leave you alone by bowing to them. When someone pulls a gun on you, it's a bit late for formal negotiations. Fortunately for you, there are thousands of Americans who understand that, and volunteer to deal with it.

I didn't play the "Nazi" card, don't pin that label on me. I said, correctly, that your solution to dealing with these homicidal maniacs is to try to make them like us. That fact has impacted me, and other soldiers, more than it will ever impact you. I wish there were no bad people in the world, I wish there was no need for a military or a police force. But I recognize the existence of evil, and I know you don't make it go away by coddling it. Eventually, you have to deal with it. Fortunately for you, when that time comes, it won't be YOU that has to un-do the damage of that failed appeasement. Other brave soldiers will step up to clean up the mess created by those like you, with their heads in the sand.

Spence, your claim that "we" need to end the violence shows the absurdity of your position. To start off, so that I am clear, are you American? If so, then "we" do not need to end the violence, because "we" did not start the violence (please look up the events of 09/11 as a refresher). "We" would happily lay down our arms today if our adversaries would do the same. "We" are not perpetuating the violence in the Middle East, Islamic fanatics are perpetuating the violence there. Unbelievable. Simply unbelievable.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Yes, he is. And if apologizing to the murderers, rather than bringing them to justice, is what makes our troops safer, please explain how. Because I fail to see how.

Circular logic.

Oh, I see. So now you, Spence, are assuming that some sizable portion of our troops believe that we should be appeasing those who murder our troops, rather than killing them? By what divine right do you make that claim? By any chance, do you have some polls or US servicemen who think the best thing is to appease Islamic sociopaths, rather than bringing them to their knees?

More circular logic.

Spence, you are entitled to your own opinions, inane as they may be. You are not entitled to your own facts, and there are no facts (nor any common sense) to suggest that coddling Al Queda makes us any safer. If Obama had a brain, he would realize that to maximize our safety, you destroy these people BEFORE they build up their capabilities.

Coddling al Qaeda? Not many left after all those drone strikes the past 3 years. I thought we were talking about the Taliban here...

As for destroying them before they build up their capabilities, we've been trying to do that for the past 10 years.

That's precisely what he did. Worse, by apoloigizing, he lends credibility to the insane notion that it's justifiable to be enraged if someone accidentally burns a piece of paper. It was a simple accident, nothing more. Obama went out of his way to suggest that those who burned the Koran would be punished, but he offers NO ASSURANCES that those who murdered US servicemen would be punished? Those are the facts Spence. Just because they make your guy look stupid, doesn't mean they aren't facts.

Why aren't you jumping on Gen. Allen who quickly came out and apologized for the incident as well?

And I don't believe Obama said anyone would be punished, he said they would be held accountable. Big difference here. Accountability could be as simple as retraining on how to handle religious manuscripts.

Oh, I dunno. For starters, at anyone who believes that a piece of paper is worth more than innocent lives.

We should probably just nuke the entire country then.

Jesus God Almighty man!!! What color is the sky in the world you live in? The BAD GUYS, not us, committed the violence in this case. You're willing to say "sorry" and call it a day? What do you say to the families of the next innocent victim, knowing you did nothing to prevent further attacks?

No, we need to depressurize the incident, work to ensure better security and continue with the mission.

Spence, there are bad people out there that you cannot wish away, nor can you ever make them leave you alone by bowing to them. When someone pulls a gun on you, it's a bit late for formal negotiations. Fortunately for you, there are thousands of Americans who understand that, and volunteer to deal with it.

I think the disconnect is we see this war in different phases. You believe we should be engaging the Taliban in an effort to eliminate them.

Obama and our military leadership are in a different place. They've recognized that we're not going to eliminate the Taliban through force alone, and that a combined military/political end game needs to be reached...otherwise we continue to stalemate while the budget runs dry and troops continue to die.

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Circular logic.


More circular logic.


Coddling al Qaeda? Not many left after all those drone strikes the past 3 years. I thought we were talking about the Taliban here...

As for destroying them before they build up their capabilities, we've been trying to do that for the past 10 years.


Why aren't you jumping on Gen. Allen who quickly came out and apologized for the incident as well?

And I don't believe Obama said anyone would be punished, he said they would be held accountable. Big difference here. Accountability could be as simple as retraining on how to handle religious manuscripts.


We should probably just nuke the entire country then.


No, we need to depressurize the incident, work to ensure better security and continue with the mission.


I think the disconnect is we see this war in different phases. You believe we should be engaging the Taliban in an effort to eliminate them.

Obama and our military leadership are in a different place. They've recognized that we're not going to eliminate the Taliban through force alone, and that a combined military/political end game needs to be reached...otherwise we continue to stalemate while the budget runs dry and troops continue to die.

-spence

"Circular logic."

Spence, if I say that murderers (and their victims) deserve justice instead of apologies to the murderers, please explain why you dismiss that as "circular logic". And be specific please, so that I understand.

"Coddling al Qaeda? Not many left after all those drone strikes the past 3 years."

You got me. In this case, Obama waqs, in my opinion, coddling the murderers. Whether they are Taliban or Al Queda, i don't know.

"We should probably just nuke the entire country then."

I'm confused Spence. I said that muslims who would indiscriminately kill innocent westerners, simply because someone else accidentally burned a Koran, need to be killed. You respond by saying we should nuke the whole country? That necessarily means that you think all of them are sociopaths? That doesn't seem very liberal, does it?

"we need to depressurize the incident"

I don't see how failing to punish the guilty does anything, other than maximizing the chances that they will live to kill another innocent victim.

"They've recognized that we're not going to eliminate the Taliban through force alone"

Not once, ever, have I said that we can with with military force alone. I just don't see how overlooking the slaughter of innocent bystanders, helps anyone except the wicked. But that concept, moral relativism, is one of the pillars of liberalism. That, and lack of responsibility or accountability for one's actions.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Spence, if I say that murderers (and their victims) deserve justice instead of apologies to the murderers, please explain why you dismiss that as "circular logic". And be specific please, so that I understand.

Your assertion was that Obama was apologizing to the perpetrators of the crimes. This isn't backed by the facts nor is it even believable...unless you're trying to score political points.

You got me. In this case, Obama waqs, in my opinion, coddling the murderers. Whether they are Taliban or Al Queda, i don't know.

The Taliban took credit for the attack. Granted they're not the most trustworthy source.

I'm confused Spence. I said that muslims who would indiscriminately kill innocent westerners, simply because someone else accidentally burned a Koran, need to be killed. You respond by saying we should nuke the whole country? That necessarily means that you think all of them are sociopaths? That doesn't seem very liberal, does it?

I think a reasoned person would understand that many who commit violence, hell...even terrorism...aren't all crazy. If you look at it as a mental thing you risk ignoring root causes.

I remember a documentary on Afghanistan some years back when the journalist was remarking at even young kids getting involved in the violence. The Afghan kind of smiled and said, yea, here it's kind of like a bad habit. This doesn't mean they're crazy...it just means we need to consider who we're dealing with.

I don't see how failing to punish the guilty does anything, other than maximizing the chances that they will live to kill another innocent victim.

Perhaps the answer is so obvious you don't see it? Are the Afghan Police not working to capture the perpetrator?

Not once, ever, have I said that we can with with military force alone. I just don't see how overlooking the slaughter of innocent bystanders, helps anyone except the wicked. But that concept, moral relativism, is one of the pillars of liberalism. That, and lack of responsibility or accountability for one's actions.

This isn't a case of moral relativism, rather it's a case of reality. The killer and accomplices should be held to account. The Taliban where they seek to fight Americans or jeopardize our mission should be dealt with as we can...

But the simple fact is that we're not in a black and white situation. It seems like General Allen understands this.

Do you?

-spence