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Old 02-14-2012, 12:58 PM   #31
JohnnyD
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Originally Posted by RIJIMMY View Post
Granted the govt is still sticking too much of its nose in my business (see my cupcake rant) but I think I have more freedom now that I ever did.
Santorum defines social conservative. He wants the government more involved with regulating our lives than the most liberal politicians do. He doesn't have a chance in the long-term.
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Old 02-14-2012, 02:10 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by RIJIMMY View Post
really? the govt was less overbearing in the 40s, 50s, and 60s?
lets see, how about..

1. The draft
2. Higher tax rates
3. Segregation
4. McCarthy-ism
5. Rampant censorship
6. Testing of biological weapons on civilains and military
7. The war on drugs
8. FBI on John Lennon, Louie, Louie, etc

Granted the govt is still sticking too much of its nose in my business (see my cupcake rant) but I think I have more freedom now that I ever did.
Add water and air quality, food safety, work place safety, home ownership rates, money for non-necessities, etc. I wasn't around in the old days, but my very conservative 95 y.o. grandfather's opinion on this topic is that we don't realize how good we have it today and anyone who says life overall things were better 50, 60 years ago is patently incorrect ( he used different descriptors)

My eyes is goin' crazy!
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Old 02-14-2012, 02:18 PM   #33
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1.The draft- guys volunteered with pride to serve their country.
2.Tax rates- you may be right, prolly the general average was 20%
over an $8 or $10,00 income when an income of $5-$8,000 was a great salary.
Majority were 1 family income, as most women were homemakers.
Plus we were fighting a war in Korea, "police action" pfft., and then the Vietnam
War starting early 60's.
3.Segregation- I went to an 1800 student city high school and there was no
segregation, never saw a fight or problem because of race. Yes in the South.
4. Mc Cartyism- yes, there was a great fear of Communism.
5. Rampant censorship- Rampant? of what?
6.Testing of biological weapons- only one I knew of was troops witnessing
a nuclear test several miles from the test sight.
6.The war on drugs- Never heard or saw anyone taking drugs until the
mid 60's, when the crime rate went through the roof.
7.FBI on Lenon- again mid late 60's.

As a generalization the average citizen wasn't affected by any of the above.
People were friendly and always willing to help out, no class dsitinction, a man's
word was as good as his bond, kids were free to play 12 hours a day outdoors without
fear, you could buy a BB gun without being finger printed, people were proud of their
country and on and on.
The 60's and all it entailed started our country down the wrong road.
Morals and values deteriorated and so the unbelievable amount of laws
regulations we live with now. Just my experiences.
If everyones memory was erased today and they woke up tomorrow,
they would think , hey this is pretty good. Fouties, fifities and early sixties
were the best and most free times to live, imho.
I understand these are your opinions, but realize, they are opinions. Crime rates, particularly against children have dropped for decades, so the playing outside thing doesn't hold water. More media now, so you hear about it. Tax rates were higher. Life expectancy dramatically higher now. I am not even going to go into the race/gender based equality because it is so far beyond any argument. Just because you didn't hear of bio-testing doesn't mean it didn't exist. So it looks like fingerprinting for bb gun purchase is about the only thing? I'm not even sure that is based on fact, but maybe where you live it is. Again, so much of the fuss these days is based on perception, rather than reality.

One last thing... your perception of the 40's and 50's is most likely the perception of a child. It is hard to compare experiences from childhood to what is happening later in life.

Last edited by zimmy; 02-14-2012 at 02:26 PM..

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Old 02-14-2012, 03:25 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by zimmy View Post
Add water and air quality, food safety, work place safety, home ownership rates, money for non-necessities, etc. I wasn't around in the old days, but my very conservative 95 y.o. grandfather's opinion on this topic is that we don't realize how good we have it today and anyone who says life overall things were better 50, 60 years ago is patently incorrect ( he used different descriptors)
Water quality was excellent, used to drink out of the fishing streams 25 miles
from NY City. Food was fresh ,grown locally, except for rotenone there
were few if any other pesticides. I do agree we have better work place safety.
Too bad you weren't around we could of had a great time with Clammer.
Ask him.

Your Grand Dad grew up, in the depression and those were tough times. But
I would assume when he talks about "how good we have it today" he is speaking
of the material and creature comforts we have compared to then.

In any event I won't recant my original posts speaking about people being use to
living with an overbareing government in a nanny state nor the fact that
values and morals dropped to the degree to bring unbelivable laws and
regulations to live by.

" Choose Life "
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Old 02-14-2012, 03:27 PM   #35
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One last thing... your perception of the 40's and 50's is most likely the perception of a child. It is hard to compare experiences from childhood to what is happening later in life.
Your assumptions are erroneous.

" Choose Life "
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Old 02-14-2012, 06:11 PM   #36
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Water quality was excellent, used to drink out of the fishing streams 25 miles from NY City. Food was fresh ,grown locally, except for rotenone there
were few if any other pesticides.
But issues like water quality are directly related to industrial growth and government regulation.

Industry will sometimes do what's required by law and rarely nothing more.

You can't calculate the benefits of an economy built on consumerism without factoring in the side effects.

-spence
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Old 02-14-2012, 06:46 PM   #37
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But issues like water quality are directly related to industrial growth and government regulation.

Industry will sometimes do what's required by law and rarely nothing more.

You can't calculate the benefits of an economy built on consumerism without factoring in the side effects.

-spence
Agree Spence, but shouldn't you be taking your wife out for Valentines Day
about now.

Also the rise in population hasn't helped.

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Old 02-15-2012, 11:13 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RIJIMMY View Post
really? the govt was less overbearing in the 40s, 50s, and 60s?
lets see, how about..

1. The draft
2. Higher tax rates
3. Segregation
4. McCarthy-ism
5. Rampant censorship
6. Testing of biological weapons on civilains and military
7. The war on drugs
8. FBI on John Lennon, Louie, Louie, etc

Granted the govt is still sticking too much of its nose in my business (see my cupcake rant) but I think I have more freedom now that I ever did.
Numbers 7. and 8. were a later time period than justplugit's 40's, 50's, and early 60's, and the war on drugs is still on. The draft was fulfilling individual duty to protect freedom, not an imposition on freedom. Segregation in jusplugit's time period was mostly a cultural rather than a governmental issue and where it was governmental it was State rather than Federal. The elimination at State level was good, but cultural segregation still exists and may take some time to disappear, if ever. Censorship that existed was, again a local issue and dependent, again, on cultural views. No culture is free of some form of censorship. That is one of the defining views of culture--it censors that which is counter to or threatens itself. There is less banning of books today, but there are still cultural taboos, e.g.--political correctness. McCarthyism may have been an overreaction to the Communist threat, that is still debated wheather it was or not, but it was mostly a threat to a few Communists and fellow travelers not to average Americans. It was open, blatant, opposed, and temporary. Today there are subtler and more lasting threats to individual liberties that effect us all. And the testing of biological weapons was one of those abberations, more horrible than most, that occur in every generation, not some, again, threat to the liberty of average Americans.

But the higher tax rates? Tax rates have increased greatly with the onset of our "progressive" era views of the function of government, but may not have VISIBLY risen since the 40's and 50's. The Federal income tax has gone up and down and been shifted to higher brackets and been eliminated in others. Certainly, for almost half of the people the tax is lower because they don't pay it. It was spread more evenly in jusplugits era, even though it appeared that the wealthier had a high marginal rate, they paid less than now due to loopholes. So, actually, today, the middle class and above pay the burden with a greater share of their income paid by the wealthy. If that's your idea of being freer . . . fine. But the cost of government, at all levels, has risen exponentially. And what you don't see as a "visible" tax, you are paying, at a much, much higher rate today in the form of "hidden" taxes. A far greater portion of your income today either directly goes to government or is forced by government through regulation. For example:




By Clyde Wayne Crews, Ryan Young

April 25, 2011

Originally published in McClatchy News Service
Print
Email
Share


Appeared: The Sacramento Bee, The Pittsburgh Tribune, St. Paul Pioneer-Press, The Portland Oregonian, The Bradenton Herald, The West Hawaii Today, Press of Atlantic City, Desert News, Tulsa World, and Bellingham Herald.

"The federal government is on track to spend more than $3.5 trillion this year. What most people don't know is that government actually costs about 50 percent more than what it spends. That's because complying with federal regulation costs an additional $1.75 trillion - nearly an eighth of GDP. And almost none of that cost appears on the budget.

Regulation is a hidden tax that raises the price of goods. It's tempting to think that businesses bear most of the burden. But consumers are the ones who actually pay, because companies pass on their costs.

Just how regulated is the economy? The just-released 2011 edition of the Competitive Enterprise Institute's annual "Ten Thousand Commandments" study has some answers. At the end of 2009, the Code of Federal Regulations was 157,974 pages long. In 2010, 3,752 new rules hit the books - equivalent to a new regulation coming into effect every 2 hours and 20 minutes, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

An additional 4,225 regulations are at various stages of the pipeline right now.

Not all regulations are created equal. Some cost more than others. If a rule costs more than $100 million, it's called "economically significant." There were 224 of those last year - up from 174 in 2009. Agencies aren't required to say how much these regulations cost, aside from acknowledging that each one of the 224 costs at least $100 million. At a bare minimum, last year's economically significant rules alone will cost $22.4 billion. The real number is likely much larger.

The total cost of federal regulation is $1.75 trillion. That's true in terms of money. But money isn't everything. Regulation also has opportunity costs. Workers spend millions of man-hours every year filling out forms and following procedures. That time could be spent on other things instead, such as finding ways to lower costs, improve quality and increase worker productivity. When there's too much regulation, progress and innovation slow down.

There is a second opportunity cost that is often overlooked. Companies don't sit idly by when regulators propose new rules. They try to influence the process. Most companies, especially larger ones, often favor new regulations in their industries. They will pay lobbyists a lot of money to influence the rules in a favorable way - say, by handicapping a competitor.

UPS and FedEx are fighting just such a battle right now in Washington. UPS is subject to stricter labor regulations than FedEx. It could argue that it should be under the looser system, too. But it isn't. UPS wants FedEx to have to abide by UPS' stricter regulations. FedEx, naturally, is fighting back.

All the time and energy that UPS and FedEx are spending competing against each other in Washington is time and energy they aren't spending competing in the marketplace.

When government is given a lot of money and power, lobbyists and their clients will swarm to Washington to fight over a piece of the pie. This is the source of a lot of the city's corruption. The way to reduce that corruption isn't to pass more regulations. It is to repeal them. The best way to keep money out of politics is to keep politics out of money.

There are many reforms that Congress and President Obama can pass to make that happen. One is for Obama to appoint an annual bipartisan committee to comb through the Code of Federal Regulations for old, obsolete and harmful rules. They would pass their findings on to Congress, which would be required to vote on the entire package without amendment. That last step would prevent a lot of backroom dealing.

Right now, Congress doesn't vote on most regulations. The agencies pass them on their own. The problem is that only Congress can pass laws, not the executive branch. To end this regulation without representation, Congress should vote on all economically significant regulations, at least for starters.

Because even good rules go bad as technology changes, all new regulations should automatically expire after five years, like a carton of milk. If a rule turns out to be useful, Congress can vote to renew it for another five years.

Because regulation is a hidden tax, most people don't pay it much mind. They should. Even in this age of trillions, $1.75 trillion is a lot of money."


There are, of course, other hidden costs to you, the average American, caused by government that are occurring today at a greater level than in the 40's and 50's, such as the greater volume of of money being printed which inflates the economy and lowers the value of the dollar. Since the LBJ Great Society, government debt and government inflation has eroded the value of common assets, especially savings accounts.
.
As I mentioned in this and other threads, we live in an era of an administrative State which "regulates" us through hundreds of unelected independent agencies who each make decisions on how, what, who, where, and why we will act in such and such a way. The totallity of those decisions is growing exponentially with each admininistration, and it takes more of our money, and it limits, bit by bit, more of our decisions. This has only been made possible by a progressive ideology which saw the Constitution, properly, as a hinderance to Central power, and so disregarded the Constitutional limitation granting legislative ability only to Congress, and unconstitutionally delegated its regulatory power to our current regulatory agencies. Return to Constitutional rule would be a corrective to the Federal Government's excessive confiscation of wealth and its creeping encroachment on our liberty.

Last edited by detbuch; 02-16-2012 at 09:32 AM..
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Old 02-16-2012, 09:31 AM   #39
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[QUOTE=detbuch;921144]Numbers 7. and 8. were a later time period than justplugit's 40's, 50's, and early 60's, and the war on drugs is still on. The draft was fulfilling individual duty to protect freedom, not an imposition on freedom. Segregation in jusplugit's time period was mostly a cultural rather than a governmental issue and where it was governmental it was State rather than Federal. The elimination at State level was good, but cultural segregation still exists and may take some time to disappear, if ever. Censorship that existed was, again a local issue and dependent, again, on cultural views. No culture is free of some form of censorship. That is one of the defining views of culture--it censors that which is counter to or threatens itself. There is less banning of books today, but there are still cultural taboos, e.g.--political correctness. McCarthyism may have been an overreaction to the Communist threat, that is still debated wheather it was or not, but it was mostly a threat to a few Communists and fellow travelers not to average Americans. It was open, blatant, opposed, and temporary. Today there are subtler and more lasting threats to individual liberties that effect us all. And the testing of biological weapons was one of those abberations, more horrible than most, that occur in every generation, not some, again, threat to the liberty of average Americans.

QUOTE]

Now,there is a man, Debuch,who knows the truth of history at the time!

I get a kick out of some of the younger generation who thinks that the older generation didn't know what was goin on when they were younger.Don't insult our experience, intelligence or
common sense.

Trust me we did. In my house the radio was turned on to the news
every night, the news and politics were discussed at the supper
table where the whole family ate together.
Every Sunday we would have dinner with aunts ,uncles and cousins where the news
and politics where the main topic and discussed well after dinner was over.

Neighborhood gatherings would always include talk of the news and politics.
We were well informed with newspapers, Time and Newsweek, pretty un-biased
magazines at the time.

When you read your history books, be sure you know the author, the time they
lived,and their agenda. There are a lot of pseudo-intellectuals and libertine
thinkers out there that would love to change the truth of history for their
own agendas.

" Choose Life "
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Old 02-16-2012, 10:02 AM   #40
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Quote:
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As I mentioned in this and other threads, we live in an era of an administrative State which "regulates" us through hundreds of unelected independent agencies who each make decisions on how, what, who, where, and why we will act in such and such a way. The totallity of those decisions is growing exponentially with each admininistration, and it takes more of our money, and it limits, bit by bit, more of our decisions.
Let me give a couple of recent examples of how regulation is encroaching
on our freedoms and costing us more $$$.

My son-in-law wanted to put down a 12X15ft patio with 3x3 bluestone layed
on stone dust in his backyard.
The building inspector rode by,saw the stone, and asked what he was doing.
He said he needed a permit. OK. he goes to get the permit and is told he needs
an engineering report of the backyard before he did it. Luckily he knew
an enginner who did it for $600. It cost him more for the permit and fee than
the cost of the patio.

I am putting a french drain system in my cellar for a water problem.
I need 2 permits, one electric, and one plumbing which I can understand
as the job needs to be done right and the safety factor.
However, I am told this is a Capital Improvement for my property which
will add to my tax bill for as long as I own the property!

Don't worry, there will be similar regulations coming to your neighborhood
soon.

" Choose Life "
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Old 02-16-2012, 10:37 AM   #41
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Quote:
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My son-in-law wanted to put down a 12X15ft patio with 3x3 bluestone layed
on stone dust in his backyard.
The building inspector rode by,saw the stone, and asked what he was doing.
He said he needed a permit.
"Oh that stuff? I don't have anything planned. They were clearancing it out at Home Depot so I bought a pallet worth. I'll probably sell it to a contractor friend of mine."

People are too complacent and willfully provide Big Brother with too much info.
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Old 02-16-2012, 11:48 AM   #42
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Your prolly right JD, but when they come around for re-evaluation and there
was stuff done without a permit, they getcha.
The inspectors and Building Dept salaries depend upon finding this stuff out.

I see the inspector riding slowly around town all the time.
Just shows to go ya how much Govt. regulations are infringing on deceisons
and how much Big G is watching.

Last edited by justplugit; 02-16-2012 at 12:00 PM..

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Old 02-16-2012, 01:35 PM   #43
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Your assumptions are erroneous.
You are older than I thought? Kudos to you for keeping so active with this stuff. I mean that sincerely.

My eyes is goin' crazy!
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Old 02-16-2012, 02:14 PM   #44
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You are older than I thought? Kudos to you for keeping so active with this stuff. I mean that sincerely.
Sorry, can't help it



-spence
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Old 02-16-2012, 02:39 PM   #45
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That was awesome....

I always think of this one.......


"If you're arguing with an idiot, make sure he isn't doing the same thing."
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Old 02-16-2012, 02:46 PM   #46
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thanks to spence and dadf for making my day

making s-b.com a kinder, gentler place for all
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Old 02-16-2012, 05:51 PM   #47
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That was awesome....


Ouch! I'll take that as a sign of liberal compassion for the senior citizen
and wanting to save Social Security.

" Choose Life "
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Old 02-20-2012, 09:06 PM   #48
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Concerning the administrative State versus the Constitution, here is a good distillation of the subject in a presentation given by John Marini in May 2010. It's a little over a half hour, and he is not a dynamic speaker. He mostly reads his presentation, but it is good. The question and answser session that follows is much better, he is excellent at extemporaneous answers. It's an hour not wasted, if the subject interests you.

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Old 04-10-2012, 03:03 PM   #49
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Sounds like Santorum must be rising in the Polls.
the only pole he'll be rising on is a stripper pole
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Old 04-10-2012, 04:49 PM   #50
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Rav, you must be feelin betta.

He's throwing in the towel, so much for polls.

Last edited by justplugit; 04-10-2012 at 04:56 PM..

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