GAZA

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by buckman

You do know Iran wants us dead ...
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Relevantly, much of the hate from Iran towards the US stems from US policy with regards to Israel-Palestine relations.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Relevantly, much of the hate from Iran towards the US stems from US policy with regards to Israel-Palestine relations.

So we let Iran bully us into changing our foreign policy?

If the barbaric kooks in Iran hate what we're doing in the Middle East, that's pretty good reason for me to assume we are doing the right thing.

The Civil Rights workers who fought in the segregated south used to have a saying..."if the Klan is shooting at you, you must be doing something right".

Happy Thanksgiving Johnny. Following UCONN hoops at all?

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

So we let Iran bully us into changing our foreign policy?

If the barbaric kooks in Iran hate what we're doing in the Middle East, that's pretty good reason for me to assume we are doing the right thing.

The Civil Rights workers who fought in the segregated south used to have a saying..."if the Klan is shooting at you, you must be doing something right".

Happy Thanksgiving Johnny. Following UCONN hoops at all?

Not necessarily. I think we should change our foreign policy with Israel because I think they are a bunch of instigators. They're like the little squirt who talks tough knowing that his big brother would come in and beat everyone up if he got in trouble.

Israel acts the way they do because the US is their safety net. Not much different than a lot of risks taken by banks in the financial sector who know that they have the government as a safety net should they be on the verge of going belly up.

Happy Thanksgiving to you too. Honestly, I don't follow any college sports at all - don't have the mental capacity for it.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Not necessarily. I think we should change our foreign policy with Israel because I think they are a bunch of instigators. They're like the little squirt who talks tough knowing that his big brother would come in and beat everyone up if he got in trouble.

Israel acts the way they do because the US is their safety net. Not much different than a lot of risks taken by banks in the financial sector who know that they have the government as a safety net should they be on the verge of going belly up.

Happy Thanksgiving to you too. Honestly, I don't follow any college sports at all - don't have the mental capacity for it.

Israel has fought wars, all-out wars, which we did not fight in. the aye quite capabe of wiping the Palestinians off the face of the Earth, with no help from us. Maybe Iran too, as long as Iran doesn't have nukes. Given that Obama isn't as supportive of them as previous presidents, we may well find out the answer to that question in 2013.

In my humble opinion, Israel does the only thing it can do, given that they are literally surrounded by people who want to kill them. I worked with their military for a few months, it's tough to describe what they live with every day. I'm not saying they haven't done some things to fan the flames of hate, but I see them as a victim, not an instigator.

The banks did what they did to make money. Israel is trying to continue to exist.

I'm not objective, as my Mom comes from a line of Polish Jews, who let's say faced some hardships in the 1930's and 1940's.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Israel has fought wars, all-out wars, which we did not fight in. the aye quite capabe of wiping the Palestinians off the face of the Earth, with no help from us. Maybe Iran too, as long as Iran doesn't have nukes. Given that Obama isn't as supportive of them as previous presidents, we may well find out the answer to that question in 2013.

It is extremely misleading to say Israel has accomplished *anything at all* on their own. An average of $3 billion per year in aid to them since 1985, most of which is military and technology. Almost $80 billion over the course of 27 years. http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

Also, to say Obama isn't as supportive is like saying it hasn't rained as much in the rainforest this year. As I posted earlier, Obama just announced we're 'gifting' another $70million to Israel for their missile defense shield.

In the face of $16 trillion in debt and a trillion dollar deficit, I am completely intolerant of the billions of dollars we are shipping out of this country for completely lost causes - that includes Pakistan, Afghanistan, Africa and Israel.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

It is extremely misleading to say Israel has accomplished *anything at all* on their own. An average of $3 billion per year in aid to them since 1985, most of which is military and technology. Almost $80 billion over the course of 27 years. http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

Also, to say Obama isn't as supportive is like saying it hasn't rained as much in the rainforest this year. As I posted earlier, Obama just announced we're 'gifting' another $70million to Israel for their missile defense shield.

In the face of $16 trillion in debt and a trillion dollar deficit, I am completely intolerant of the billions of dollars we are shipping out of this country for completely lost causes - that includes Pakistan, Afghanistan, Africa and Israel.

"It is extremely misleading to say Israel has accomplished *anything at all* on their own."

I don't limit my consideration to economic aid, although one cannot ignore it, either.

"Almost $80 billion over the course of 27 years"

It's a lot of money in terms of absolute dollars. As a percentage of our budget, it's not even a rounding error. And many, many Americans feel that Israel deserves that aid. Maybe you should read about what happened to the Jews in WWII? They fought like hell to get their country, and they fight like hell every day, to keep it. Compare that to what goes in in any urban city in CT or MA, where the residents feel no sense of obligation or ownership. None.

"to say Obama isn't as supportive is like saying it hasn't rained as much in the rainforest this year. "

If you only look at money, you have a point. If you look at standing by an ally in public, I have a point. He said, in one of those moments when he didn't know the camera was on im, he lamented about Netanyahu "I have to deal with him every day", to another world leader, can't remember who it was.

"I am completely intolerant of the billions of dollars we are shipping out of this country"

One can make a compelling case about that...speaking for me, I'd rather give it to Israel than to Planned Parenthood or to ACORN.

"lost causes - that includes Pakistan, Afghanistan, Africa and Israel"

Bush saved more than one million lives in Africa, with his massive AIDS relief project called EPFAR (for which, in a fair world, they re-name the Nobel Peace Prize after him). Generations and generations of kids will be born, thanks to us. Not a lost cause in my book.

Johnny, we are so lucky to be born here. Someday, you might find yourself in a situation where you really need someone else's help. If that ever happens, I hope you find someone who's not as seemingly self-centered as you appear to be.

In my opinion, the strong have a responsibility to help the weak. Many people would passionately disagree with that.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"Almost $80 billion over the course of 27 years"

It's a lot of money in terms of absolute dollars. As a percentage of our budget, it's not even a rounding error. And many, many Americans feel that Israel deserves that aid. Maybe you should read about what happened to the Jews in WWII? They fought like hell to get their country, and they fight like hell every day, to keep it. Compare that to what goes in in any urban city in CT or MA, where the residents feel no sense of obligation or ownership. None.

"to say Obama isn't as supportive is like saying it hasn't rained as much in the rainforest this year. "

If you only look at money, you have a point. If you look at standing by an ally in public, I have a point. He said, in one of those moments when he didn't know the camera was on im, he lamented about Netanyahu "I have to deal with him every day", to another world leader, can't remember who it was.

"I am completely intolerant of the billions of dollars we are shipping out of this country"

One can make a compelling case about that...speaking for me, I'd rather give it to Israel than to Planned Parenthood or to ACORN.

"lost causes - that includes Pakistan, Afghanistan, Africa and Israel"

Bush saved more than one million lives in Africa, with his massive AIDS relief project called EPFAR (for which, in a fair world, they re-name the Nobel Peace Prize after him). Generations and generations of kids will be born, thanks to us. Not a lost cause in my book.

Johnny, we are so lucky to be born here. Someday, you might find yourself in a situation where you really need someone else's help. If that ever happens, I hope you find someone who's not as seemingly self-centered as you appear to be.

In my opinion, the strong have a responsibility to help the weak. Many people would passionately disagree with that.

While I respect your position, I'm not going to get into much of a detailed retort because we philosophically disagree and there's no changing either of our minds. But there are a couple points I'll address quickly...

Dollars spent: $3billion being a rounding error or not, it is still a significant sum of money. As you frequently point to our crippling debt, I'd expect you to be the last person to trivialize a $3 billion expenditure.

Americans' support: You comment that Americans "feel that Israel deserves that aid" couldn't have been more perfect. I say that because I'd wager most non-Jewish individuals 40 y/o and younger could not actually state *why*. I strongly believe this and believe it is a function of the government's and mainstream media's propaganda. I point to the front page headline of CNN.com earlier "Clinton: The US will unquestionably support Israel." American's constantly read "We must support Israel", "Israel is a critical ally", "the US stands behind Israel" but aside from one person, no one has been able to actually state why - because they don't actually know why.

Obama's comment: Frankly, I think the comment goes to show how much of an actual drain Israel is on the US. Going back to my "little brother" analogy, I can see Obama's comment being along the lines of "yeah, the little s#$t is at it again." There's little denying that Israel is a pain in the ass for our foreign relations department.

The Money: I'd rather not spend the money at all... for PP, ACORN, or Israel.

Bush and Africa: Yup, a lot of people in Africa didn't die of AIDS thanks to Bush's efforts. However, they then went on to die from hunger, war or some other disease. You're right that generations and generations of kids will be born... to further overpopulate a lawless continent full of barbaric people that have been killing each other for hundreds of years and will continue to do so for hundreds more. Africa is the epitome of your complaints about the US welfare class - it is impossible to help those who don't want to help themselves.

My being self-centered: Call me self-centered, but I consider it US-centered. I believe in the Libertarian philosophy: If so many American's believe that Israel deserves the aid, then stop taking my tax money and let the individual make the contribution. Our economy is on the path of failure. If we are to continue contributing towards the world economy, then a major retraction in money sent out of the US needs to occur.

While I agree that the strong have a societal obligation to 'assist' the weak, as you stated in your earlier post, Israel is anything but weak. In my exhaustion with the US funding other people's wars, the military aid needs to end.


Well... that reply was significantly longer than I intended.

[spence]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Also, to say Obama isn't as supportive is like saying it hasn't rained as much in the rainforest this year. As I posted earlier, Obama just announced we're 'gifting' another $70million to Israel for their missile defense shield.

Election year rhetoric to exploit the reference frame of Obama the outsider who doesn't share the same values as you and me.

Be nice, I'm not sure Jim really knows any better.

I think Obama is secretly brokering a new peace deal with Egypt that will take Iran into account.

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

I think Obama is secretly brokering a new peace deal with Egypt that will take Iran into account.

-spence

hope it works out better than the Olympics

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

I think Obama is secretly brokering a new peace deal with Egypt that will take Iran into account.

-spence

That would be his SOP with everything
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[likwid]

Originally Posted by spence

Election year rhetoric to exploit the reference frame of Obama the outsider who doesn't share the same values as you and me.

Be nice, I'm not sure Jim really knows any better.

I think Obama is secretly brokering a new peace deal with Egypt that will take Iran into account.

-spence

Only a Muslim would do that!

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Election year rhetoric to exploit the reference frame of Obama the outsider who doesn't share the same values as you and me.

Be nice, I'm not sure Jim really knows any better.

I think Obama is secretly brokering a new peace deal with Egypt that will take Iran into account.

-spence

Obama is an outsider who sure as hell doesn't share my values. he pals around with Bill Ayers, and his admitted "spiritual mentor" thinks that the US Government invented AIDS to eradicate blacks.

Do those things reflect yoru values? They don't reflect mine.

You want campaign rhetoric? Who said this...

- Romney is suffering form stage-3 Romnesia
- Romney is like a Romney-hood in reverse, he want sto take from the poor and give to the rich
- Romney wants to implement the same principles that got us into this mess (Obama never said how Romney was going to re-start another subprime mortgage crisis, because Obama's worshippers, like you, don't question anything he says.

God damn right Obama's values are antithetical to my values. Everyone who disagrees with him is demonized and villified. All that liberal tolerance and open-mindedness.

I just heard today on MSNBC that John McCain is only opposed to Susan Rice as SecState, because he is - wait for it - a racist. This is the same John McCain who adopted a daughter from Bangladesh, now he's a racist. Maybe he hasn't noticed that his daughter isn't white.

Spence, as a state senator in Illinois, Obama literally supported a mom's right to kill the baby after it was born, outsid ethe womb and not connected to the mom in any way. Are those your values? Infanticide for convenience. Is that consistent with what you believe?

Saying I don't know better...who resorted to personal attacks once again, in response to getting defeated in honest discourse? Did I say one thing about Israel thatis factually incorrect? Anything?

There is nothing, not one thing, about which you "know better" than me. Except how to have a crush on a President who supports infanticide, I guess you "know better" than me about that. I can live with that.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Israel acts the way they do because the US is their safety net.

that's interesting, I always figured they act the way they do because their neighbors are routinely threatening the extermination of their people and annihilation of their country and have sponsored terrorism and engaged in indiscriminate bombing against their country routinely.........currently, things don't appear to be improving from their stand point in the Middle East with the Arab spring empowering radicals, if they are nervous or tired of being threatened or have an itchy trigger finger...I don't really blame them...