Help me find answers to this scenario

[tlapinski]

I can't work in hypothecials and must know your secret bass-catching addative.

[DZ]

You guys are good. Yes I am referencing the YoYo technique. I just wanted to keep the description generic so as to just describe/show the potential harm/effect without naming the method. I could not come up with an analogy to some other fishing method that potentially could have the same effects.

The reason I posed this question was because the RI Striped Bass Advisory Panel (of which I’m a member) reviewed a request from RISAA’s Legislative Committee on Tuesday to enact a regulation that would alter how yoyo rigs can be constructed – basically stating that all foreign materials added to the bait (menhaden in this case) had to be attached to the anglers running line so that if the bait was lost, the foreign materials would be recovered. Massachusetts enacted a similar regulation last season.

Well, to make a long story shorter the Advisory Panel decided that there was not enough “scientific evidence” or “studies” to indicate that bass (and other fish, birds, mammals) were/could be harmed by having lead weights or sections of coat hanger in their digestive tracts. I tried to convince other members of the panel that even without scientific evidence; the yoyo method was essentially a wasteful/unethical method because of its potential by-kill effect. I anticipated that the R&R pinhook lobby would fight this regulation but I never anticipated that other recreational panel members and recreational fishermen that were present would have a problem with the proposed new yoyo regulation. By a vote of 8-1 (me being the 1) the proposed new regulation was sent back to the RI Dept of Marine Fisheries asking for more scientific evidence that ingested lead weights can contaminate bass and sections of coat hanger in the stomach can cause harm to fish/marine birds, etc. To say the least I was a little bit shocked but again this is Rhode Island and I’ve been in this game a long time so I’ve seen this before.

What I gathered at the meeting was that use of the yoyo method is apparently rampant in RI waters by both commercial rod and reel AND recreational fishermen – so much so that both groups argued that their catches would be severely affected by the proposed change. Sounds like many of these fishermen (both Comm and Rec) are very dependent on this method for their success rates.

BTW, looks as if the recreational and commercial striped bass regulations in RI will stay essentially the same. Only a slight change in commercial R&R seasonal start dates.

Thanks for all your responses.
DZ

[Piscator]

Originally Posted by DZ

Well, to make a long story shorter the Advisory Panel decided that there was not enough “scientific evidence” or “studies” to indicate that bass (and other fish, birds, mammals) were/could be harmed by having lead weights or sections of coat hanger in their digestive tracts. DZ

[Clammer]

JL
I was also @ the meeting & a commercial R/R ask the person from the DEm if the they or the state or anyone /anywhere has evidence to back this up .
She said of all the studies & testing that has been done .............. the only harmful chemical that is coming up in fish is mercury ..........zero on lead, iron, etc ?????????????

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by Clammer

JL
I was also @ the meeting & a commercial R/R ask the person from the DEm if the they or the state or anyone /anywhere has evidence to back this up .
She said of all the studies & testing that has been done .............. the only harmful chemical that is coming up in fish is mercury ..........zero on lead, iron, etc ?????????????

Mercury is a chronic bioaccumulation, biomagnification issue. The coat hanger, and ingested lead for that matter, are accute threats. I can supply a veterinarian who can testify what a coat hanger does to the digestive tract of vertebrates. Would that help this committee ? The tests have not been done specifically on striped-bass with those quantities of lead digested, because you would have to capture those specific fish from the wild, which is nearly impossible or set up a controlled experiment where they are fed yo-yo rigged bait. There is plenty of scientific data of the effect of lead on vertebrates. Yo-yoing is for people with short rods.

[JohnnySaxatilis]

Seriously?... Why don't you have those board members eat some coat hangers, spark plugs, or lead weights and see how they feel LOL

I think its safe to say it doesnt take a scientist to realize these foreign objects arent good for wildlife to eat

Not to mention the complications that will arise when people go to weigh in their 50+ pounder fish in a tournament, and 12oz of led comes rolling out of its belly! Happened in the MV derby a few years ago to Lev Woldyka I believe

[JohnR]

Interesting question -

IMO:
To the Hypothetical, no you shouldn't

To the YoYo, no you shouldn't unless you come up with a variation that does what the reg states - stay attached to line.

Dennis - If I was on the panel with you it would have been 7-2

[PaulS]

6 - 3

[Sea Flat]

Like someone else said, I would try to experiment and find a way of fishing similar, but less toxic.

Everyone (including myself) is thinking that you are talking about yo-yoing and if you are there are already many other proven methods that will accomplish the same thing and you are able to do it less toxic.

If you are not talking about yo-yoing than the "toxin" you keep referring to, if it would be harmful to you if you ate the fish you catch with it I would absolutely stop fishing with it. My thought being that even if you were irresponsible, fished with this toxic method and threw the fish back, there is nothing to say that someone else, in a matter of minutes or hours, couldn't come by and catch that fish, keep it, and then ingest this toxin as well.

Lastly, isn't the fun of fishing the challenge? I can tell by your language that you know/think this is wrong. It really isn't a catch at all costs type of thing with you is it? A few less fish, but caught in a more challenging and safe way sounds a lot more rewarding to me.

Great question!!

[tlapinski]

Is there scientific data available which shows how long lead must be inside the stomach of a fish, bird or human before enough lead is absorbed into the bloodstream to become lethal?

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by tlapinski

Is there scientific data available which shows how long lead must be inside the stomach of a fish, bird or human before enough lead is absorbed into the bloodstream to become lethal?

Absorption rates in humans are known A child in Oregon died of lead poisoning within four days of swallowing a necklace that contained lead. He had syptoms within 24 hours.
In children, up to 50% of ingested lead may be absorbed (see Grant, L.D. (2009). "Lead and compounds". In Lippmann, M.. Environmental Toxicants: Human Exposures and Their Health Effects (3rd ed.). Wiley-Interscience. ISBN 0-471-79335-3).

LD50 of lead is known for many fish, birds, etc. Given the digestive system in fish, the lead is not going to pass through the digestive tract and will stay in the fish to be continually absorbed. The amount of lead in a fish that eats yoyo'd bait is going to kill most of them. I don't have any idea how many people yoyo or how many baits come free, so I can't guess how much of an issue it is for the overall population. Maybe I kill just as many fish by catch and release mortality as a person who yoyo's for meat, I don't know.

[tlapinski]

Originally Posted by zimmy

Absorption rates in humans are known A child in Oregon died of lead poisoning within four days of swallowing a necklace that contained lead. He had syptoms within 24 hours.
In children, up to 50% of ingested lead may be absorbed (see Grant, L.D. (2009). "Lead and compounds". In Lippmann, M.. Environmental Toxicants: Human Exposures and Their Health Effects (3rd ed.). Wiley-Interscience. ISBN 0-471-79335-3).

LD50 of lead is known for many fish, birds, etc. Given the digestive system in fish, the lead is not going to pass through the digestive tract and will stay in the fish to be continually absorbed. The amount of lead in a fish that eats yoyo'd bait is going to kill most of them. I don't have any idea how many people yoyo or how many baits come free, so I can't guess how much of an issue it is for the overall population. Maybe I kill just as many fish by catch and release mortality as a person who yoyo's for meat, I don't know.

Thanks! Now I am trying to recall if I ever ingested any split shot when I was younger figuring it would just pass right on through. Maybe the fact that I can't remember is a sign...