H-Bomb

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

As opposed to the Trump apologists who claim NK is Obama's fault but give Trump credit from day 1 for the economy? Maybe Trump should have worked on NK earlier and it would have all been solved?

Hypocrites?

How many trump apologists are here? Any?

NK was a problem before obama got elected - who on this planet, has claimed otherwise? In 8 years, you tell me Paul, what did obama do to improve things? I believe, that obama believed, that he could make the world better just by making people see how hip he is. That reference Scott keeps making from obamas inaugural, where obama said something like " let today be the day we remember as the day when oceans stopped rising and the planet began to heal." I mean, that's as narcissistic and egomaniacal as anything trump has ever said.
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[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"I'm not sure what you expected Obama to do. "

I "expected" Obama to do exactly what he did, i.e., zip. I "hoped" he would do what the world knows needs to be done, which is to get China to reign that maniac in.

This is the issue you see North Korea as solely an American issue same with the Iran Deal but again those are not the Facts

the US has not acted unilaterally they acted with the WORLD in both of theses issues

But the rights Base are clueless and think thats whats happen under Obama he acted unilaterally and now kim has the bomb in 8 years
the truth is they were making the bomb well before Obama but again Plz dont let facts get in the way

1st test October 9, 2006, then may 2009 then feb 2013 Jan 2016 September 2016 ,September 2017

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

How many trump apologists are here? Any?

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Anyone who tried to defend him for saying that people who marched with the nazis where "fine" people or who have tried telling us what he meant vs what he actually said for starters. How about people who say he's being sarcastic when there's no indication he was being sarcastic? I could add a lot more.

First time in history we've had a president defending Nazis.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

This is the issue you see North Korea as solely an American issue same with the Iran Deal but again those are not the Facts

the US has not acted unilaterally they acted with the WORLD in both of theses issues

But the rights Base are clueless and think thats whats happen under Obama he acted unilaterally and now kim has the bomb in 8 years
the truth is they were making the bomb well before Obama but again Plz dont let facts get in the way

1st test October 9, 2006, then may 2009 then feb 2013 Jan 2016 September 2016 ,September 2017

I don't see this as a us only issue at all. Once again, you are responding to something that no one has said. Obama was supposed to be the guy, unlike bush, who could get other countries to help us, by being nicer to them. Did the world line up to help obama with NK?
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

First time in history we've had a president defending Nazis.
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I see.

So when Trump says "I condemn violence and bigotry on all sides", what you hear, is "I like Nazis".

Yes, he could have been very specific about calling them out separately from Antifa. He's a rotten speaker. And he may well have been wrong in his assumption that there were "fine" people mixed in.

If you look at everything he said, he clearly condemned the bigots, but was allowing for the possibility that there were non-bigots in the group. He may have been 100% wrong in that assessment. But to conclude that he was "defending Nazis", is completely irrational.

I can make a LONG list of character flaws that Trump has, and some are very ugly. Nazi sympathizer, isn't on the list, at least, not based on his comments from Charlottesville.

[nightfighter]

Originally Posted by PaulS

First time in history we've had a president defending Nazis.
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I would have to do some deep digging, but I am 75% sure there were some words spoken on their behalf by FDR, pre Pearl Harbor, said in an effort to keep the US neutral and out of the war in Europe. Again, pre WW2. Just saying and has no bearing on current discussion.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by PaulS

As opposed to the Trump apologists who claim NK is Obama's fault but give Trump credit from day 1 for the economy?

Hypocrites?

name one...

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I see.

So when Trump says "I condemn violence and bigotry on all sides", what you hear, is "I like Nazis".No, what I hear is what he said - read it. He was trying to put Nazis on equal footing with people who were marching against NAZIs.

Yes, he could have been very specific about calling them out separately from Antifa. He's a rotten speaker. And he may well have been wrong in his assumption that there were "fine" people mixed in.Go back and read what he said - everytime he called out a Nazi, he had to add something about antifa as if it killed him to call out a nazi.

If you look at everything he said, he clearly condemned the bigots, but was allowing for the possibility that there were non-bigots in the group.I would say if you think you are not a bigot and the person next to you is yelling something about Jews and is a self professed Nazi and you don't leave - you then are a bigot. He may have been 100% wrong in that assessment. But to conclude that he was "defending Nazis", is completely irrational. He was defending nazis' bc some in the crowd word MAGA hats - ie "they like me, therefore they are me and me can't be all bad so they can't be bad".

I can make a LONG list of character flaws that Trump has, and some are very ugly. Nazi sympathizer, isn't on the list, at least, not based on his comments from Charlottesville.

I read that Bannon pushed Pres Trump not to criticize the Alt right too strongly for fear of alienating Trump's core supports. What Bannon failed to recogonize is that the majority of Trump's supporters criticized the Alt right who participated in those marches and where horrified by Trump not criticizing the Nazis more. The thing I can't figure out is he likes "winners" so why isn't he calling for the removal of the statutes of a bunch of traitorous losers?

But back to the apologists - So aren't you being an apologist? Can't the same be said for anyone who posts on either side of a discussion in most threads?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

I read that Bannon pushed Pres Trump not to criticize the Alt right too strongly for fear of alienating Trump's core supports. What Bannon failed to recogonize is that the majority of Trump's supporters criticized the Alt right who participated in those marches and where horrified by Trump not criticizing the Nazis more. The thing I can't figure out is he likes "winners" so why isn't he calling for the removal of the statutes of a bunch of traitorous losers?

But back to the apologists - So aren't you being an apologist? Can't the same be said for anyone who posts on either side of a discussion in most threads?

"He was trying to put Nazis on equal footing with people who were marching against NAZIs."

Please post exactly what he said, that you interpreted as him equating Nazis, with those who oppose Nazis. He may have equated the violent jerks on both sides (Antifa is nothing more than a terrorist group), that's hardly the same thing as what you accused him of.

"everytime he called out a Nazi, he had to add something about antifa as if it killed him to call out a nazi."

So he called out both Nazis and Antifa. And that's what ticks you off. Yes, he could have said "Nazis have killed more people than Antifa ever will". But that's nowhere near "defending Nazis", which is what you accused him of.

"I would say if you think you are not a bigot and the person next to you is yelling something about Jews and is a self professed Nazi and you don't leave - you then are a bigot"

That's not a bad point. But interesting that you chose not to apply that logic to Obama, who had Al Sharpton in the Oval Office almost 100 times, and I don't recall you offering a syllable of criticism for that. How about we establish some rules, and we apply them equally to all presidents, regardless of party?

"He was defending nazis' bc some in the crowd word MAGA hats - ie "they like me, therefore they are me and me can't be all bad so they can't be bad".

He has condemned all kinds of bigotry, dozens of times, on camera. But let's ignore all that, because it doesn't fit The Narrative. The Narrative is having a hard time lately.

"aren't you being an apologist?"

No, I am being a rational adult who holds him accountable for the things he actually says and does. Just because I don't heap fabricated criticism at Trump, doesn't mean I am an apologist. I am highly, highly critical of the man. But I do it honestly, and that's the difference between us.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"He was trying to put Nazis on equal footing with people who were marching against NAZIs."

Please post exactly what he said, that you interpreted as him equating Nazis, with those who oppose Nazis. He may have equated the violent jerks on both sides (Antifa is nothing more than a terrorist group), that's hardly the same thing as what you accused him of.TRUMP: I will tell you something. I watched those very closely, much more closely than you people watched it. And you had a group on one side that was bad and you had a group on the other side that was also very violent. And nobody wants to say that. But I’ll say it right now.

[cross talk]

You had a group on the other side that came charging in without a permit and they were very, very violent.

REPORTER: Do you think that what you call the alt-left is the same as neo-Nazis?

TRUMP: All of those people — Excuse me — I’ve condemned neo-Nazis. I’ve condemned many different groups. But not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me. Not all of those people were white supremacists by any stretch. Those people were also there because they wanted to protest the taking down of a statue, Robert E. Lee.




REPORTER: Mr. President, are you putting what you are calling the alt-left and white supremacists on the same moral plane?

TRUMP: I am not putting anybody on a moral plane. What I’m saying is this: You had a group on one side and you had a group on the other and they came at each other with clubs and it was vicious and horrible. And it was a horrible thing to watch. But there is another side. There was a group on this side, you can call them the left. You have just called them the left, that came violently attacking the other group. So you can say what you want, but that’s the way it is.

REPORTER: You said there was hatred, there was violence on both sides?

TRUMP: Well I do think there’s blame. Yes, I think there is blame on both sides. You look at both sides. I think there is blame on both sides. And I have no doubt about it. And you don’t have doubt about it either. And if you reported it accurately, you would say.





REPORTER: The neo-Nazis started this thing. They showed up in Charlottesville to protest —

TRUMP: Excuse me. They didn’t put themselves down as neo-Nazis. And you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides.

You had people in that group — excuse me, excuse me — I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down, of to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.




"everytime he called out a Nazi, he had to add something about antifa as if it killed him to call out a nazi."

So he called out both Nazis and Antifa. And that's what ticks you off. I'm not ticked off at all. I think it is hilarious to watch the apologists try to explain his actions. Yes, he could have said "Nazis have killed more people than Antifa ever will". But that's nowhere near "defending Nazis", which is what you accused him of.

"I would say if you think you are not a bigot and the person next to you is yelling something about Jews and is a self professed Nazi and you don't leave - you then are a bigot"

That's not a bad point. But interesting that you chose not to apply that logic to Obama, who had Al Sharpton in the Oval Office almost 100 times, and I don't recall you offering a syllable of criticism for that. I never defended him nor did I critize him. Am I supposed to respond to every one of your numerous posts? I did defend him on your constant complaining about Rev. Wright. How about we establish some rules, and we apply them equally to all presidents, regardless of party? Fine with me - so does that mean all those posts about Obama's vacations, mom pants, the amount of exec. orders, etc. will get deleted or are you going to go back and change your comment on them?

"He was defending nazis' bc some in the crowd word MAGA hats - ie "they like me, therefore they are me and me can't be all bad so they can't be bad".

He has condemned all kinds of bigotry, dozens of times, on camera. But let's ignore all that, because it doesn't fit The Narrative. The Narrative is having a hard time lately.The "narrative" is he only does it when he gets called out. Something along the lines of "fine, I denounce" after his lying and saying he doesn't know anything about David Duke even though there is tape w/Trump talking about Duke previously. Took proding for him to make a comment on Charlottesville and then he said he had to gather the facts - as if that has ever stopped him from tweeting before knowing any facts The Neo Nazis where thrilled w/Trump's comments after Charlottesville

"aren't you being an apologist?"

No, I am being a rational adult who holds him accountable for the things he actually says and does. Just because I don't heap fabricated criticism at Trumpexpecting your Pres. not to lie is fabricated criticism (or bitter hatred)?, doesn't mean I am an apologist. I am highly, highly critical of the man.really only his crassness and lying - I'll give you that. But I do it honestly, and that's the difference between us.

That is your view- I think you are an apologist (I'll guess I'll start using that here) and a hypocrite. Should we pull up a post where you said only the nut who shot Giffords was guilty and not anyone on the right and then recently said the nut who shot Scalise was a result of the left's actions? I called DS on that one and let you off easy even though you had repeatedly argued basically the same thing as him in the same threads. How about your complaining about Obama blaming Bush for leaving him a bad economy and your complaining that he shouldn't talk about the prior Pres? You seems to not have a problem w/Pres. Trump's constant complaining of not only the former Pres. but of the defeated candidate. Pure hypocrisy.

[Jim in CT]

Paul -

"And you had a group on one side that was bad and you had a group on the other side that was also very violent. And nobody wants to say that. But I’ll say it right now"

There were two groups there at the same time. They are both disgusting. Is one worse than the other? Probably.

That's not "defending Nazis", not even close.

"to watch the apologists"

If you think I am a Trump apologist, you don't know what "apologist" means. I hate the guy. But I hate him for the things he has actually said and done.

If you have no quarrel with Obama meeting with Sharpton dozens of times, it's the height of hypocrisy for you to say that anyone standing next to a racist, should leave the premises, or they are a racist. Try making that wrong.

I don't need to change any of my criticisms of Obama. My criticisms were based on facts (well some were clearly personal as I didn't like the guy), and I don't hold Trump to a lower standard. The double standard is on your side. Again, on one hand you have no problem with Obama meeting with Sharpton dozens of times. On the other hand, you say Trump should denounce everyone that was standing next to the racists. How is that, in any way, consistent?

"really only his crassness and lying". His disgusting views towards women, too. When he exhibits true racist behaviors, I'll criticize him for it. I won't fabricate it.

[Jim in CT]

Paul, here's my issue with the left's treatment of Trump.

For 8 years, the left claimed that it was no big deal that Obama was admittedly close to two loathsome racists - Rev Wright, and Rev Sharpton.

But now, the left is telling me it's a huge deal that Trump associated himself with Steve Bannon. And I guess it's a bad sign that Trump doesn't wake up every morning and have a press conference that he doesn't start off by saying "I don't like Hitler".

My dog could spot the glaring double standard, and he's not an overly bright dog.

Does the right engage in that kind of hypocrisy? Of course, that's politics. But not to the same degree. Lots of conservatives criticize Trump when he deserves it. Not many liberals dared to criticize Obama. It's not the same thing.

If I was a lefty political consultant, i would be telling the DNC to spread the message that despite controlling everything, the GOP can't get a damn thing done. That's a very fair criticism (it ticks me off to no end), and it could hurt the GOP in 2018. Instead, the democrats are devoting all their time to making Trump out to be Darth Vader. Maybe it will work. We'll see.

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Paul, here's my issue with the left's treatment of Trump.

For 8 years, the left claimed that it was no big deal that Obama was admittedly close to two loathsome racists - Rev Wright, and Rev Sharpton.

But now, the left is telling me it's a huge deal that Trump associated himself with Steve Bannon. And I guess it's a bad sign that Trump doesn't wake up every morning and have a press conference that he doesn't start off by saying "I don't like Hitler".

My dog could spot the glaring double standard, and he's not an overly bright dog.

Does the right engage in that kind of hypocrisy? Of course, that's politics. But not to the same degree. Lots of conservatives criticize Trump when he deserves it. Not many liberals dared to criticize Obama. It's not the same thing.

If I was a lefty political consultant, i would be telling the DNC to spread the message that despite controlling everything, the GOP can't get a damn thing done. That's a very fair criticism (it ticks me off to no end), and it could hurt the GOP in 2018. Instead, the democrats are devoting all their time to making Trump out to be Darth Vader. Maybe it will work. We'll see.

You could have just said... "but Obama..."
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

You could have just said... "but Obama..."
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Here's the thing...if I am going to try and explain why I feel there is a double-standard, I kind of have to refer to the POTUS who I claim got preferential treatment.

How else would one go about demonstrating a double standard, then by comparing the way the 2 have been treated? Can you tell me how you'd do it?

[Nebe]

2 wrongs have never made a right.
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[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Nebe

2 wrongs have never made a right.
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But BU5H!tler

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by JohnR

But BU5H!tler

Yeah. Exactly.
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[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Paul, here's my issue with the left's treatment of Trump.

For 8 years, the left claimed that it was no big deal that Obama was admittedly close to two loathsome racists - Rev Wright, and Rev Sharpton. As despicable as Sharpton was (Brawley/Pagones - can name them off the top of my head) I don't view him the same as Nazis or KKK.

But now, the left is telling me it's a huge deal that Trump associated himself with Steve Bannon. I view some of his ideas as repugnant so just as you viewed Sharpton that way, others view Bannon that way. And I guess it's a bad sign that Trump doesn't wake up every morning and have a press conference that he doesn't start off by saying "I don't like Hitler".

My dog could spot the glaring double standard, and he's not an overly bright dog.It's not a double standard it is the other side of the coin.

Does the right engage in that kind of hypocrisy? Of course, that's politics. But not to the same degree. BS - it is the same.Lots of conservatives criticize Trump when he deserves it. Not many liberals dared to criticize Obama. It's not the same thing.TThe diff. is Trump isn't conservative - at this point he is clay and can be molded by the last person who talks to him bf he tweets.

NM

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

NM

Yes it is a double standard. Almost no one on the left cared about rev wright or sharpton, but those same people cannot stand that a potus would associate with Steve Bannon. Textbook double standard.

Sharpton incited violence that led directly to white Americans being murdered. I don't know that Steve bannon has blood directly on his hands.

I agree that nazis and the klan are worse. But fortunately for you, trump has given you zero compelling reason to suspect he sympathizes with them.
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[The Dad Fisherman]

A racist POS is a racist POS, regardless of the color of their skin. It's asinine that people are arguing which Racist POS is better.

Therein lies the hypocrisy
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[Got Stripers]

I think Trump telling the world he is going to totally destroy NK is just fueling that nut jobs will to keep pushing our buttons in any way he can. Think it, imply it with subtle rhetoric, but let the sanctions try to work before you make Kim go do something we will all regret.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

I think Trump telling the world he is going to totally destroy NK is just fueling that nut jobs will to keep pushing our buttons in any way he can. Think it, imply it with subtle rhetoric, but let the sanctions try to work before you make Kim go do something we will all regret.

Do you actually intend to blame Trump if North Korea does something stupid?
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[Nebe]

Originally Posted by buckman

Do you actually intend to blame Trump if North Korea does something stupid?
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All Nk wants is to be left alone. They can be played like a fiddle and it's plainly obvious what is going on here. I won't say trump is to blame but who ever is pulling the strings is just waiting for NK to make a big mistake which will be used as an excuse for another senseless war.
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[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Nebe

All Nk wants is to be left alone.

Seriously?

Originally Posted by Nebe

They can be played like a fiddle and it's plainly obvious what is going on here. I won't say trump is to blame but who ever is pulling the strings is just waiting for NK to make a big mistake which will be used as an excuse for another senseless war.
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This problem has been Clinton / Bush / Obama admins and the Can has been kicked to Trump.

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Seriously?



This problem has been Clinton / Bush / Obama admins and the Can has been kicked to Trump.

this is a world issue not an American POTUS only issue ..not sure why everyone frames it as a US only issue .. and to say the can has been kicked to Trump sound Like your giving him a pass

NK program is not offensive its all about regime preservation look what the US has done to non Nuke Countrys the last 60 years .. Its easy to see the desire to have a Nuke as a deterrent.. thats why we have them is it not?

[scottw]

Originally Posted by wdmso

NK program is not offensive

15 SEPTEMBER 2017
North Korea fires second missile over Japan

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...pan-residents/

[Nebe]

Stop making sense !
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[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by buckman

Do you actually intend to blame Trump if North Korea does something stupid?
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Of course not but do you seriously think his rhetoric is helping? Keep kicking the crazy dog and instead of just barring his teeth, he might actually attack you.
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[wdmso]

Originally Posted by scottw

15 SEPTEMBER 2017
North Korea fires second missile over Japan

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...pan-residents/

Thats how it works who's going to think twice about attacking NK if NK only Talk about a Having a Missile


Pyongyang knows there is no way to use their weapons for gain that would not immediately provoke massive counter-costs.


this make more sense THE ESCALATION SPIRAL
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order...hat-you-think/

[scottw]

Originally Posted by wdmso View Post

NK program is not offensive




North Korea fires second missile over Japan




[QUOTE=wdmso;1128610]

Thats how it works who's going to think twice about attacking NK if NK only Talk about a Having a Missile