Any Doubters???

[The Dad Fisherman]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Joe Gibbs....I personally think he is one of the Best Coaches ever....top 3 for sure....right along with Belichek.

Gibbs one 3 superbowls with 3 different QB's...

Shula's a Hack....guy couldn't win a Superbowl with one of the Best QB's to ever play the game.

[fishsmith]

wrikerjr - What team do you root for?
Here at S-B most of us are life long Pats fans, and know exactly what the lean years were like. If any team was due for good fortune, it's the Patriots.

In Bill we trust, after all he is
The Greatest Coach Ever

[BigFish]

Spygate?? Please....they all do it.....they have also proved they can outright win so lets put that to bed!

They play the Bills, Jets and Miami 2 times....whats your point there??? You do not agree they had the toughest schedule in all of football this season??

Are you saying they are not a Dynasty because the season after their first Superbowl win they went 9-7??? After they went 9-7 they won back to back Superbowls.......soooooo....whats your point?

[wrikerjr]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

You had a great argument going until you threw the Big Tuna in the Mix......Both his superbowls were one on Defense.....and who was his Defensive Coordinator???

Good coaches put the right people in the right places. I never said that BB was not a great coach I just said you guys get ought of shape sometimes throwing out the best ever! top 5 yes, but best ever many arguments against that!!!

[wrikerjr]

[QUOTE=fishsmith;551140]wrikerjr - What team do you root for?
Here at S-B most of us are life long Pats fans, and know exactly what the lean years were like. If any team was due for good fortune, it's the Patriots.
QUOTE]

I am a life long cowboy fan, I am use to lean times, I am use to great dynasties as well. Who do I owe it to the best owner in football.

You could argue with many people that their team is due. I know a ton of Jets fans who would say that they are due for good fortune. You can't argue with that.

I do admit that you have a dynasty, yes, its true, but to say BB is the best coach ever you guys are getting a going a little far.

Who is the best receiver ever - Moss?
Best QB ever - Brady?
Best Linebacker ever - ?
They are not all patriots - ?

[wrikerjr]

Originally Posted by BigFish

Spygate?? Please....they all do it.....they have also proved they can outright win so lets put that to bed!

They play the Bills, Jets and Miami 2 times....whats your point there??? You do not agree they had the toughest schedule in all of football this season??

Are you saying they are not a Dynasty because the season after their first Superbowl win they went 9-7??? After they went 9-7 they won back to back Superbowls.......soooooo....whats your point?

Big fish - when did I not say they were not a dynasty, don't say I said that, because i truly believe that you are but interestingly you bring that up, interesting. I think it is definetly a blemish on BB as a coach that he failed to bring his team to the playoffs in their dynasty run. Its a nock

They did not have the toughest schedule in football, yes, it is true. Published by the nfl 2007 strength of schedule new England .473

Colts.516
cowboys .496
Jaguars .516
Redskins .555
Eagles .563
etc.

Spygate, unfortunately you will have to live with that when you break the rules you have to live with the consequences.

[BigFish]

I guess the consequences of spygate are a 16-0 regular season and whatever happens in the playoffs....I can live with that! I think that was blown way out of proportion.....teams steal signals all the time!

My definition of a dynasty is they compete at the highest level of the game over several seasons in a row and win at least 3 Superbowls in that run! The dynasty is established and is poised to be the greatest in history! Like it or not!

We both have opinions Wrikerjr, and I do respect yours. Its all good conversation and it really is opinion as I do agree there are many ways to argue the points.

I was a huge 49'er fan during their run and thought I would never see a team better than them......but here we are and I think this team is tons better than those 49'er teams.....I do wish there were a maching we could use to bring the 2 teams together and let them slug it out.....that would be fun!

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by wrikerjr

They did not have the toughest schedule in football, yes, it is true. Published by the nfl 2007 strength of schedule new England .473

Colts.516
cowboys .496
Jaguars .516
Redskins .555
Eagles .563
etc.

I'm a Giants fan, but I have to give credit where it's due. If the Colts played a serious game last night, the Browns would be in the playoffs, not the Titans. Which would have meant that the Pats played all 5 of the other AFC playoff teams, and also beat 3 of the six NFC playoff teams, including the team with the best record in the NFC. The Pats schedule is skewed by having to play the dog-assed Jets and Dolphins twice. Philly on the other hand had to play 3 playoff teams in their division twice. That tough schedule might mean more if they managed to win more than 2 of those 6 games.

Strength of schedule is all well and good, but when the team with the strongest schedule goes 8-8, what's the significance of having a margainally better schedule that a team that won all 16?

[Raider Ronnie]

[QUOTE=wrikerjr;551168][QUOTE=fishsmith;551140]wrikerjr - What team do you root for?
Here at S-B most of us are life long Pats fans, and know exactly what the lean years were like. If any team was due for good fortune, it's the Patriots.
QUOTE]

I am a life long cowboy fan, I am use to lean times, I am use to great dynasties as well. Who do I owe it to the best owner in football.

You could argue with many people that their team is due. I know a ton of Jets fans who would say that they are due for good fortune. You can't argue with that.

I do admit that you have a dynasty, yes, its true, but to say BB is the best coach ever you guys are getting a going a little far.

Who is the best receiver ever - Moss?



Jerry Rice is the best receiver ever!
Lots would say he's the best football player ever!

[wrikerjr]

Originally Posted by Mike P

I'm a Giants fan, but I have to give credit where it's due. If the Colts played a serious game last night, the Browns would be in the playoffs, not the Titans. Which would have meant that the Pats played all 5 of the other AFC playoff teams, and also beat 3 of the six NFC playoff teams, including the team with the best record in the NFC. The Pats schedule is skewed by having to play the dog-assed Jets and Dolphins twice. Philly on the other hand had to play 3 playoff teams in their division twice. That tough schedule might mean more if they managed to win more than 2 of those 6 games.

Strength of schedule is all well and good, but when the team with the strongest schedule goes 8-8, what's the significance of having a margainally better schedule that a team that won all 16?

Your looking at 2006 sos not 2007.

Someone said they have the third highest which is not true look up 2007 sos.

[wrikerjr]

[QUOTE=Raider Ronnie;551281][QUOTE=wrikerjr;551168]

Originally Posted by fishsmith

wrikerjr - What team do you root for?
Here at S-B most of us are life long Pats fans, and know exactly what the lean years were like. If any team was due for good fortune, it's the Patriots.
QUOTE]

I am a life long cowboy fan, I am use to lean times, I am use to great dynasties as well. Who do I owe it to the best owner in football.

You could argue with many people that their team is due. I know a ton of Jets fans who would say that they are due for good fortune. You can't argue with that.

I do admit that you have a dynasty, yes, its true, but to say BB is the best coach ever you guys are getting a going a little far.

Who is the best receiver ever - Moss?



Jerry Rice is the best receiver ever!
Lots would say he's the best football player ever!

I bet you 90% of the people on here would say that Montana and Rice is not as good as Moss and Brady.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by Raider Ronnie

Jerry Rice is the best receiver ever!

I won't argue that....he was amazing. Set his record in a strike shortened season too....

[The Dad Fisherman]

Before we start arguing who the Greatest coach is should we define what make a Coach Great. Is it his Career Win/Loss totals? is it his Championships won? Once you define what it takes then you can say who is the Greatest

[wrikerjr]

Dad fisherman,

I think it is a multiple of those that you suggested, but I like the way this thread is heading.

Some of those items will be uncalculated, like winning with less talent and various other things.

Motivation, Drafting ability, etc.

Many things that make a great coach come through all facets of the organization so it is difficult to say.

Obvious one's would inlude championships. To be a great coach you need to have won at least one championship and if you have multiple then you are doing something to be included with the greats.

[wrikerjr]

Originally Posted by Strike_King

Yeah,that was me..Obviously you didn't bother to read the article I linked. So I'll do it for you again (try reading it this time) and note that it is in regard to the
2007 Strength of Schedule
Pats have a .535 FYI
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2830466
Which is calculated based on the 2006 W/L records...

I read the article, and I really don't need you to tell me what to read again and again if you can't understand the concept that the 2007 sos is based on your opponents win/loss percentage in 2007 and not 2006. I can't help you The sos you are looking at is old and is used to create the schedule for 2007 and the draft for last year. when was that article April??? Enough said

if you still don't understand let me break it down. The problem is the sos for this year and this years draft is based on the winning percentage of your opponents in this year 2007, not the 2007 sos. The fact that a team plays Chicago was great last year and sucked this year will not help your SOS when its looked at after the season is over.

Pats do not have a .535 they have a .473. My friend that pat's did not have the 3rd hardest sos in 2008 its impossible in their divisions. I was correcting someone's comments, its qa mute point because they don't make there schedule. The major point is that it is well above Miami's sos when they were perfect.

The simple fact is that if the Patriots win the super bowl, they beat the best of the best, that is what the playoff does. That accomplishment will be up there with one of the greatest feats ever in sports, definetly the best football feat ever.

This thread has gotten way off line, people said that BB is the greatest and that is what I debated. people are saying i keep saying no dynasty and sos is weak. I didn't say that I am just correcting some of you.

Bottom line if you go undefeated in regular and post season no one can ever say a word, including myself and then I would have to give BB the nod over Knowles/Lombardi/Gibbs/Landry as the greatest greatest coaches ever.

[Slipknot]

[QUOTE=wrikerjr;551286][QUOTE=Raider Ronnie;551281]

Originally Posted by wrikerjr

I bet you 90% of the people on here would say that Montana and Rice is not as good as Moss and Brady.

I'll take that bet

Jerry Rice was the best reciever

Brady is making a great case for himself to pass Montana and I believe that he will soon enough.

There can be no denying that after this season once the Pats win their 4th superbowl, that it will be a fact that they are they greatest team ever

[ProfessorM]

Can't argue that. No way no how

[BigFish]

I will say Brady is better than Montana without hesitation! Give Moss a few more seasons catching Brady and they will be the best tandem ever...better than Montana and Rice!

Right now...not yet!

Rice was alot different receiver than Moss though......his yards after the catch were awesome! He was always on the fly when Montana hit him! Rice is one of my all-time favorites!

[wrikerjr]

Originally Posted by Strike_King

Wow..So now sos AND draft position are related?However you wanna spin it guy.One has NOTHING to do with the other..Going into the season,sos had Pats at third.. The Pats are picking seventh in April. You're probably going to tell me it has something to do with opponent's wins/losses from this year..Whatever you wanna make of it...The facts are the facts..The Pats have beaten many of the top ten teams in the league (Colts,Cowboys and Giants on the road)..Argue "your " sos all you want....

You lost your 1st rounder this year. Your 7th round pick is from San Francisco. I am not going to teach you about the draft, you will have to look it up but SOS weighs in when your tied and its the 2008 sos. The p[atriots did not have the 3rd toughest schedule in the nfl my friend is all i am saying.

[wrikerjr]

Originally Posted by Strike_King

Seeing as to how Brady and Moss have played one year together, I doubt it
If you wanna debate Brady and Montana head to head,I'll take it.. Montana had the greatest WR to throw to most of his career. How many HOF's came out of those 49ers SB teams?And how many will come from the Pats?.Brady's had a bunch of journeymen WR's,until this year. Brady's won 3 SB's and got the Pats to within a first down of getting to last year's SB with nothing more than spare parts for a receiving corps. Trailing with two minutes left in the game,there's no QB in the history of the NFL I'd want under center going for the win....

I will have to admit that Brady is up there with Montana that is undeniable. with under two minutes to go in a superbowl I would take Montana if you needed a touchdown

[Slipknot]

Strike King, are you going to plugfest?

[wrikerjr]

Originally Posted by Strike_King

Thanks for the refresher on the pick situation..I had no idea we lost ours.You said the sos was posted by the NFL a few posts ago

..Where's a link to the story?

No problem on the refresher anytime. I don't know where the link is look it up or do a search on sos in nfl and don't look at last year. FYI if the article is from April it is old!!!

[The Dad Fisherman]

Actually, i did try looking it up and i couldn't find it either. All I could find is the 2007 from the start of the year.

A lot of the arguing would probaly stop if you posted where you got your info from...then everyone would read it and we could move on to something else in the debate.

Originally Posted by wrikerjr

No problem on the refresher anytime. I don't know where the link is look it up or do a search on sos in nfl and don't look at last year. FYI if the article is from April it is old!!!

[Goose]

Outside NE it seems like the more knowlegdable football fans are slowly giving the Pats their props, what choice do they have at this point. Belicheck has won with nobodies and stars, beside going 19-0 what more can he do. I can see why its tuff to measure greatness in the same way it hard to measure jealousy

[wrikerjr]

Originally Posted by Strike_King

That was said sarcastically,which doesn't translate well over the net..But thanks anyways

If I can get out of working that day,I will be Slip....

wow explaining my tone, thanks i appreciate it!!!

[wrikerjr]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_NFL_Draft

strength of schedule is included in here.

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by wrikerjr

Your looking at 2006 sos not 2007.

No, I'm looking at the NFL playoff picture that starts this weekend.

6 teams from each conference qualify.

Of the 5 other AFC teams--the Pats beat 3--who just happen to be all 3 of the other divisional winners.

Of the NFC teams, the Pats also beat 3--including the team with the best record in the NFC, on their field, by 3 touchdowns.

Every NFC team on their schedule had at least a .500 record.

They also beat a 10-6 AFC team that didn't make the playoffs.

The NFL schedule requires you to play a home and home series against every other team in your division. It isn't the Pats' fault that the Bills had a mediocre year, and that the Jets and Dolphins were horrendous.

Playing and beating 6 of the other 11 playoff qualifiers--including two 13-3 teams on the road--kind of trumps playing 6 games against your own divisional cupcakes. And lest anyone forget, both of those 13-3 teams were undefeated when the Pats played them.

This isn't college ball where Ohio State can go out and schedule Bowling Green for 4 straight years. You get handed a schedule by the league, and you play it.

In 1972, Miami beat the teams the schedule makers put in front of them. They're knocked for it today, but it was what they had in front of them. They still beat two good teams in the AFC playoffs and the NFC champion in the Super Bowl.

[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by BigFish

I will take arrogance then I guess.....cause' he manages a team, its players and the entire way they function better than any other coach ever!

Originally Posted by zacs

But Bill B. will go down in history as the greatest football coach to ever step on the field.

Bill Belichick = Greatest football coach ever! period

[wrikerjr]

Originally Posted by Mike P

No, I'm looking at the NFL playoff picture that starts this weekend.

6 teams from each conference qualify.

Of the 5 other AFC teams--the Pats beat 3--who just happen to be all 3 of the other divisional winners.

Of the NFC teams, the Pats also beat 3--including the team with the best record in the NFC, on their field, by 3 touchdowns.

Every NFC team on their schedule had at least a .500 record.

They also beat a 10-6 AFC team that didn't make the playoffs.

The NFL schedule requires you to play a home and home series against every other team in your division. It isn't the Pats' fault that the Bills had a mediocre year, and that the Jets and Dolphins were horrendous.

Playing and beating 6 of the other 11 playoff qualifiers--including two 13-3 teams on the road--kind of trumps playing 6 games against your own divisional cupcakes. And lest anyone forget, both of those 13-3 teams were undefeated when the Pats played them.

This isn't college ball where Ohio State can go out and schedule Bowling Green for 4 straight years. You get handed a schedule by the league, and you play it.

In 1972, Miami beat the teams the schedule makers put in front of them. They're knocked for it today, but it was what they had in front of them. They still beat two good teams in the AFC playoffs and the NFC champion in the Super Bowl.

I agree 100% I agree that you beat the premier teams in the league, I have never agrued any of that or said anyhting about that. I have never said anythin against that, going back in the thread someone said they had the 3rd toughest sos and they were wrong they are looking at the old sos that the league uses to determine the schedules.

I agree 100% you don't make the schedule and you can't control who you play you just go out and win.

I am very willing to say that if NE wins the superbowl then they are the best team ever assembled but until then they will have to win the superbowl.

everyone seems to think I said that NE's accomplishment is diminished by their SOS. That is not true and I never said.

I do think if NE does not win the superbowl the 16-0 season is heavily diminished and I do not believe that BB is the greatest coach ever, i believe he is top 5 but not the greatest ever.

with that said it should be a great playoff and I fully expect after every NE win pm's from people telling me how wrong I am.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by wrikerjr

I do not believe that BB is the greatest coach ever, i believe he is top 5 but not the greatest ever.

Then who do you think IS the Greatest? How about you list your top 5?