Any Doubters??? - Page 3 - Striper Talk Striped Bass Fishing, Surfcasting, Boating

Mike P · 01-01-2008, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

Then who do you think IS the Greatest? How about you list your top 5?

I think you have to give serious consideration to Bill Walsh.

If you go back to the 60, and even into the mid 70s, head coaches didn't have the army of assistants that they do nowadays. Much of game planning, and especially the in-game adjustments, was the head coach's job. Guys like Hank Stram and Sid Gilman were tremendous at both jobs, and true innovators.

BigFish · 01-01-2008, 06:49 PM

Bill Walsh would be in my top 5......Chuck Knoll, Lombardi, Landry, and.......Bill Belichik!

wrikerjr · 01-01-2008, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

Then who do you think IS the Greatest? How about you list your top 5?

1. Paul Brown
2. Chuck Noll (tie with lombardi)
2. Vince Lombardi (tie with lombardi)
4. Bill Belichick
5. Tom Landry

I would love to put Madden on the list but I just can't do it.

Go ahead and pick it apart as I know everyone will!!!

lets hear everyone else's list

wrikerjr · 01-01-2008, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigFish

Bill Walsh would be in my top 5......Chuck Knoll, Lombardi, Landry, and.......Bill Belichik!

Can you please rank them, a lot of people here are saying that Bill Belichick is the best ever. do you agree???

BigFish · 01-01-2008, 06:55 PM

Tough to pick a top 5 for sure....I was waffling over Joe Gibbs....could have easily put him in there!

Madden???? Not even on the radar! What are his credentials.....1 Superbowl and what else? Did he even coach that long??

BigFish · 01-01-2008, 06:58 PM

Oh ok!

5. Bill Walsh
4. Chuck Knoll
3. Tom Landry
2. Lombardi
1. Bill Belichik

Tough to put them in order too.....Belichik is definitely my number 1!

wrikerjr · 01-01-2008, 07:05 PM

madden coaches less than 10 years and had 1 superbowl and the greatest winning percentage of coaches ever and the greatest winning percentage for a decade period.

BigFish · 01-01-2008, 07:11 PM

I can't get the image of Madden out of my head where in the Superbowl (forget which it was) the Pats could have sat on the ball and gone into overtime and taken their chances or played for the win, which they did and won and Madden thought their decision was a poor one.....until they won! Was it the St. Louis game?? I forget?

wrikerjr · 01-01-2008, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigFish

Oh ok!

5. Bill Walsh
4. Chuck Knoll
3. Tom Landry
2. Lombardi
1. Bill Belichik

Tough to put them in order too.....Belichik is definitely my number 1!

where is brown. that my friend is a travesty 7 championships, most of the people on your list got their start with brown and have aknowledged what he has done for the game and coaching. he changed the game as we know it today. Not having him on your list highly devalues your list. I don't even know why I have to defend him.

wrikerjr · 01-01-2008, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigFish

I can't get the image of Madden out of my head where in the Superbowl (forget which it was) the Pats could have sat on the ball and gone into overtime and taken their chances or played for the win, which they did and won and Madden thought their decision was a poor one.....until they won! Was it the St. Louis game?? I forget?

yes the rams game the 1st of their 3 titles.

Raider Ronnie · 01-01-2008, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wrikerjr

madden coaches less than 10 years and had 1 superbowl and the greatest winning percentage of coaches ever and the greatest winning percentage for a decade period.

Quickest and youngest coach to get 100 wins also!

Raider Ronnie · 01-01-2008, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigFish

Tough to pick a top 5 for sure....I was waffling over Joe Gibbs....could have easily put him in there!

Madden???? Not even on the radar! What are his credentials.....1 Superbowl and what else? Did he even coach that long??

Gee Larry
How about giving some credit when it's due and not being such a homer!!!
Yes he only coached for 10 years but he stopped because of health reason and fear of flying !
10 years-7 trips to the afc championship game and either having to play the Steelers or Miami and yes 1 super bowl win.
Some experts even thought he was good enough to put him in the hall of fame !
And 90% of all other coaches would have played it safe and sat on it and played for overtime!

BigFish · 01-01-2008, 07:48 PM

Yeah thats pretty good Ron! 7 AFC Championship games and only won what 2 of those and 1 Superbowl? I don't care who they were up against...he couldn't get it done! To be the best you have to beat the best! Marv Levy......great coach.....4 Superbowl births and couldn't win one......that hurts him on the top coaches list just as it hurts Madden. In my opinion! Same with Parcells......can't win the big ones!

Raider Ronnie · 01-01-2008, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigFish

Yeah thats pretty good Ron! 7 AFC Championship games and only won what 2 of those and 1 Superbowl? I don't care who they were up against...he couldn't get it done! To be the best you have to beat the best! Marv Levy......great coach.....4 Superbowl births and couldn't win one......that hurts him on the top coaches list just as it hurts Madden. In my opinion! Same with Parcells......can't win the big ones!

So how many wins would this Pats team have against that 70s Steelers team ???
Also, I don't think Knoll was that great of a coach to be on a list.
That defense made him look great !

The Dad Fisherman · 01-01-2008, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigFish

Oh ok!

5. Bill Walsh
4. Chuck Knoll
3. Tom Landry
2. Lombardi
1. Bill Belichik

Tough to put them in order too.....Belichik is definitely my number 1!

I'd lose Landry and put Gibbs in...Guy won 3 SB with 3 different QB's....not to shabby

BigFish · 01-01-2008, 08:05 PM

I don't buy into that "what if" line of argument! This team, in their time in their era are doing things that are unrivaled! Yes....thats right! UNRIVALED! That "GREAT" Pittsburg team did not have this long of a run and it shows no sign of ending! By the time the Pats are done re-writing the record books it might be 5 years from now or longer!

"What if the Pats played the dynasty 49'ers?".....

....."What if the Pats played the Steeler dynasty?"....

......I will take my chances with this Pats team against any team you want to name.......since it can't be done its kind of a stupid argument! Don't you think?? I do!

BigFish · 01-01-2008, 08:11 PM

To clarify my feelings on the "What If" arguments......I think players from yesterday were alot tougher than any of todays players! Take the 2007 Red Sox......do I think they could beat the 1961 Yankees???!!!! Not in a million years!!! Those players from years ago ate nails and breathed fire......they were real, hard working, hard playing athletes who had to kill themselves to retain their jobs......not like todays whining, spoiled breed of athlete! Players today are what we have and what we have made them.....society has changed and so have the times!

Raider Ronnie · 01-01-2008, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigFish

To clarify my feelings on the "What If" arguments......I think players from yesterday were alot tougher than any of todays players! Take the 2007 Red Sox......do I think they could beat the 1961 Yankees???!!!! Not in a million years!!! Those players from years ago ate nails and breathed fire......they were real, hard working, hard playing athletes who had to kill themselves to retain their jobs......not like todays whining, spoiled breed of athlete! Players today are what we have and what we have made them.....society has changed and so have the times!

I will say this!
I didn't think Tom Brady was that talented or great early in his career,
But I love how he has made himself great through HARD WORK, and the fact that he takes less money for the good of the team so they can spend it on other players that he need so he can be great!
Is refreshing in this day of SPOILED MILLIONAIRES!

BigFish · 01-01-2008, 09:06 PM

I agree Ron! Players like Brady are few and far between!

wrikerjr · 01-01-2008, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigFish

Yeah thats pretty good Ron! 7 AFC Championship games and only won what 2 of those and 1 Superbowl? I don't care who they were up against...he couldn't get it done! To be the best you have to beat the best! Marv Levy......great coach.....4 Superbowl births and couldn't win one......that hurts him on the top coaches list just as it hurts Madden. In my opinion! Same with Parcells......can't win the big ones!

Madden won one buddy so how does it hurt him. he is a great coach not on the top 5 but definetly top 10. he also happened to coach against a dynasty that many believe could beat your dynasty, the 70 steelers.

No one can say definetly who would win, because the game is much different now then just 10 years ago nevermind the 70s. 4 championships in 6 years my friend is something of a massive accomplishment. Your NE patriots would have to win back to back again to get 4 in 6. what do you think the odds of that are???

Raider Ronnie · 01-01-2008, 09:27 PM

[QUOTE=wrikerjr;551659]Madden won one buddy so how does it hurt him. he is a great coach not on the top 5 but definetly top 10. he also happened to coach against a dynasty that many believe could beat your dynasty, the 70 steelers.

My point to larry, Madden was a great coach, certainly not the greatest
But to say he's not even on the radar is stupid !

wrikerjr · 01-01-2008, 09:32 PM

[QUOTE=Raider Ronnie;551662]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wrikerjr

Madden won one buddy so how does it hurt him. he is a great coach not on the top 5 but definetly top 10. he also happened to coach against a dynasty that many believe could beat your dynasty, the 70 steelers.

My point to larry, Madden was a great coach, certainly not the greatest
But to say he's not even on the radar is stupid !

Smartest thing on this thread. Imagine if he would not have retired. He failed to mention Paul brown as well!!! No one is giving Paul brown any love, whats up with that???

Mike P · 01-01-2008, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigFish

In my opinion! Same with Parcells......can't win the big ones!

Parcells can't win the big ones--are you on drugs?

Are you forgetting the two he won with the Giants, and the one he kept a close and competitive game for your guys, during a stretch when the AFC teams were getting their heads handed to them on a platter--by halftime?

He won his two with a better than average QB, but one who'll never be listed on anyone's top 10 list, in Simms, and a career journeyman named Hoestettler. In the second one, he went in as an underdog and came up with a game plan the controlled the clock and kept Kelly and company on the sideline.

I hate the guy but you have to give him credit where it's due. And don't feed me that crap about how it was really Belichick who was the genius pulling his strings on the sideline--hell, I could have been a defensive coordinator on a team that had LT, Harry Carson, Carl Banks, Jimmy Burt and Leonard Hamilton starting for me.

There have been a lot of great coaches who won Super Bowls with great QBs. Joe Gibbs won them with Doug Williams and Mark Rypien at QB.

And any list of great coaches without Hank Stram on it is an incomplete one.

Raider Ronnie · 01-01-2008, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike P

Parcells can't win the big ones--are you on drugs?

Are you forgetting the two he won with the Giants, and the one he kept a close and competitive game for your guys, during a stretch when the AFC teams were getting their heads handed to them on a platter--by halftime?

He won his two with a better than average QB, but one who'll never be listed on anyone's top 10 list, in Simms, and a career journeyman named Hoestettler. In the second one, he went in as an underdog and came up with a game plan the controlled the clock and kept Kelly and company on the sideline.

I hate the guy but you have to give him credit where it's due. And don't feed me that crap about how it was really Belichick who was the genius pulling his strings on the sideline--hell, I could have been a defensive coordinator on a team that had LT, Harry Carson, Carl Banks, Jimmy Burt and Leonard Hamilton starting for me.

There have been a lot of great coaches who won Super Bowls with great QBs. Joe Gibbs won them with Doug Williams and Mark Rypien at QB.

And any list of great coaches without Hank Stram on it is an incomplete one.

Hey Mike
If you ask me the 86 Giants team is one of the best i've ever seen !
I sat in the L A coliseum and watched them play the Raiders that year.
A close tough game!
I can still see Marc Bavaro carrying 1/2 the Raiders defence on his back and he wouldn't go down !
They the killed everyone in their way (including the 49ers) in the playoffs!

Mike P · 01-01-2008, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raider Ronnie

Hey Mike
If you ask me the 86 Giants team is one of the best i've ever seen !
I sat in the L A coliseum and watched them play the Raiders that year.
A close tough game!
I can still see Marc Bavaro carrying 1/2 the Raiders defence on his back and he wouldn't go down !
They the killed everyone in their way (including the 49ers) in the playoffs!

Best set of linebackers ever assembled. Carson finally got the recognition he deserved from Canton. If he played in a standard 4-3 instead of a 3-4 he would have made it years ago--but 3-4 inside backers don't get the same respect as a MLB in a 4-3.

Raider Ronnie · 01-01-2008, 11:49 PM

I don't think Larry factors a five year 36-44 record with the Browns when determining the best coach ever !!!
Larry,
When are you going to listen.
IT'S A TEAM GAME !!!
LOTS of things have to fall into place for the team to win!
To me the greatest coach is one who changed the way the game is played!
Like Sid Gillman
Paul Brown
Lombardi
Bill Walsh
Also in this list I would include Buddy Ryan but as an assistant coach (defensive coordinator)

wrikerjr · 01-02-2008, 07:48 AM

i enjoyed this thread very much. Thanks for the fresh perspective guys and happy new year.

Fishin' Blues · 01-02-2008, 08:40 AM

I'm throwing Bill Parcells into this. I hate the guy for the way he left the Pats, and I love that "I just swallowed a turd" look he has when he loses, but think about his legacy. Besides the two Super Bowls, he has spawned the careers of many head coaches. Arguably, you could say that without Parcells there'd be no Bill Belichick, Charlie Weis, Tom Coughlin, Romeo Crennel, Dan Henning, Al Groh, Sean Payton, and I'm sure a few more that I've forgotten.

Mike P · 01-02-2008, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fishin' Blues

I'm throwing Bill Parcells into this. I hate the guy for the way he left the Pats, and I love that "I just swallowed a turd" look he has when he loses, but think about his legacy. Besides the two Super Bowls, he has spawned the careers of many head coaches. Arguably, you could say that without Parcells there'd be no Bill Belichick, Charlie Weis, Tom Coughlin, Romeo Crennel, Dan Henning, Al Groh, Sean Payton, and I'm sure a few more that I've forgotten.

He also did what no one else has done in the last 25 years---coached the Jets into the AFC championship game