OBL(UBL) Killed

[zimmy]

No question some in the Pakistani govt. knew he was there.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by zimmy

Jim, Why do you bring this crap up if you don't want people to respond? This wasn't an issue of liberals distorting it, as you claim (like in most things you say). The white house had the banner made, even if the Navy asked for it. Bush was commander in chief. Revolting liars? You have a distorted sense of reality. You are right though, he didn't say mission accomplished, but he did let pictures of him standing in front of it get printed everywhere. He did say we have moved from major combat to stability and re-building. Bush also said "In the battle of Afghanistan, we destroyed the Taliban..." He was wrong on those accounts. The irony of today and it's juxtaposition to the Bush speech is notable, whether you want to believe it is liberal liars distorting it. Salty bugger certainly isn't very liberal.

"NEIL CAVUTO (host): Senator -- after a conflict means after the conflict, and many argue the conflict isn't over.

McCAIN: Well, then why was there a banner that said mission accomplished on the aircraft carrier?

Look, the -- I have said a long time that reconstruction of Iraq would be a long, long, difficult process, but the conflict -- the major conflict is over, the regime change has been accomplished, and it's very appropriate."

Wow...

"This wasn't an issue of liberals distorting it, as you claim"

Bush never said "mission accomplished" during that one speech. He did, however, claim that there was a lot of hard work left to do in Iraq. Please just read the speech.

"The white house had the banner made, even if the Navy asked for it"

If what you say is true, so what? The banner was designed to help those kids celebrate their accomplishments. If liberals want to distort the intent of the banner, that's the fault of the White House?

Maybe Bush should have demonized everyone who claimed he said "mission accomplished", just like Obama likes to demonize the birthers. I mean, what's the difference? Obama provided his birth certificate, so you can't rationally claim he wasn't born here. And as for Bush, you can download the text of his speech, not only does he not say mission accomplished, he says we have a lot of work left to do. So how can you rationally claim he said "mission accomplished"?

"You have a distorted sense of reality. You are right though, he didn't say mission accomplished"

So, in the same sentence, you say (1) my view of reality is distorted, and that (2) I have my facts straight. So which is it?

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Paul, if you read my posts before criticizing me, you'd see that I posted this...

"Not easy for me to admit, but Obama deserves some kudos here."

If I say it again, will you be able to recognize that I said it? I give Obama credit for always tightening th enoose around Bin Laden, and for being aggressive with predator drone attacks. I may be an S.O.B., but I'm extremely rational and fair.

I saw your quote and I was not criticizing you for anything related to this. I was crit. FishermanTim for his comments that Obama deserved no credit. I shouldn't have used your name, just the point about Bush keeping us safe after 9/11. My apologizes.

Does anyone know why seals would have been used for a land based mission? Are they considered the best trained of our special forces?

[american spirit]

i can't believe any propaganda i see on tv. didn't osama have diabetes and was getting dialysis? i think he may have just died from complications of that. if he is even dead at all. very quick to report he was killed, identified, and already buried him at sea.

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by Saltys

BTW

Yesterday marked the 8th anniversary of George W. Bush's "mission accomplished" speech....

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Zimmy, someone else posted that BUsh declared "Mission Accomplished" in a speech. .

The original post in reference to it never said Bush declared "Mission Accomplished" in a speech It is typically referred to in common vernacular as the mission accomplished speech. I don't know anyone who thinks Bush used the exact words mission accomplished in the speech. You can argue semantics all you want.

[PaulS]

Zimmy - you ever see the Osama look alike in the area we fish this time of year? Same scruffy, unkept beard. Keeps 2 fish a day to sell. He gave me a bunch of crap last night. I think he was off his meds. If I does again, I'm going to call him Osama.

[zimmy]

I think I know who you mean. Saw him a couple of nights ago. Maybe he won't be around anymore.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by american spirit

i can't believe any propaganda i see on tv. .

Originally Posted by american spirit

didn't osama have diabetes and was getting dialysis? .

....didn't they report that on TV....or maybe it was on the Internet......because there's nothing but the truth on the internet.

I see my Reynolds Wrap Stock Climbing.....

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

I saw your quote and I was not criticizing you for anything related to this. I was crit. FishermanTim for his comments that Obama deserved no credit. I shouldn't have used your name, just the point about Bush keeping us safe after 9/11. My apologizes.

Does anyone know why seals would have been used for a land based mission? Are they considered the best trained of our special forces?

IMHO, they are far and away the best, and the operate on land...that's what SEAL stands for, by the way...SEa, Air, Land. Their mission statement includes all manner of operations in any environment. They must be seen to be believed, not entirely human.

[Fishpart]

They are the best at what they do. Each member of the Special Operations community performs a different misson. Some train friendly insurgents, some go forward and establish a toe hold ahead of a forced entry, some seize hostages, there is some cross functionality but when there is a very specific mission, you choose the unit that trains for that mission almost exclusively.

[Tagger]

Originally Posted by TheSpecialist

So everyone is going to give Obama all the credit?

It was all military working on a mission until it was complete, all Obama did was give approval to the op, which any president would have done...

Why Not a part of it ... If this thing went bad (bum helicopter) many would have hung it around the Presidents kneck . Congrats Seals and Obama .

[buckman]

Maybe Fox is a little biased!

Fox News Says President Obama Is DeadVideo

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Crazy what happens though when the focus is taken off Bush's war in Iraq and back to where the real war on terrorism should be focused.

This was a win by US intelligence. Then our Special Ops perfectly executed (pun intended) a raid based on that intelligence.

I haven't heard anything that suggests that this mission might not have happened if we hadn't reduced our presence in Iraq. I could certainly be wrong...

I'd say it's crazy (crazy = good) what happens when intelligence folks are allowed to take the gloves off, because there ARE reports that the first break in this case (the relationship between the courier and Bin Laden) was provided by Khalid Shiek Mohammad, but only after he was waterboarded.

The word "incomprehensible" rarely is used to mean exactly what it implies. In this case, it is incomprehensible to me that folks are opposed to waterboarding.

[scottw]

my first concern, whenever a mas murderer is killed, is that his body is handled properly and buried in strict accordance with the guidelines of the peaceful religeon that he practiced throughout his life, you wouldn't want any of the other followers of the peaceful religeon to be upset that one of it's members, no matter how rogue, devious or deadly was in any way mistreated, even in death glad to know that he was properly prepared for his trip to heaven

[buckman]

Quick quiz.
Name a time "water boarding" worked? Hmmmm think hard....

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Quick quiz.
Name a time "water boarding" worked? Hmmmm think hard....

I'm at a loss. When?

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

I'm at a loss. When?

-spence

I'll help ya Spence.

Phone Call by Kuwaiti Courier Led to Bin Laden - ABC News

[scottw]

"Panetta acknowledges information from waterboarded detainees was used to help plan mission at bin Laden's compound - NBC News"

[EarnedStripes44]

Originally Posted by detbuch

So then you quote Rumsfeld in regard to Afghanistan which is not related to the ship's "mission accomplished" sign to somehow twist peripheral, unrelated statements to funnel into the falsely attributed quote to Bush to make it sound as if Bush was stupid enough to sort of say that our work was done, mission accomplished, combat is over. It is that slippery, slithery kind of discussion that is also used to paint the Tea Party as racist.

Speaking of slippery, slithery...

That mission accomplished sign was just a fashionable use in the art of power, not in the philosophy of any truth. Bush learned well. As to those who seem unwilling to acknowledge this, this is a nuisance. The philosophy of truth is at times an impediment to gaining and using power. And then truth becomes secondary to power. In your case it is the power of pursuasion. Your ability to make falsehood into a shining city on a hill to the audience is commendable. Nevetheless, I am unconvinced that your "mission accomplished sign" statements are nothing more than post hoc rationalization.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by EarnedStripes44

Speaking of slippery, slithery...

That mission accomplished sign was just a fashionable use in the art of power, not in the philosophy of any truth. Bush learned well. As to those who seem unwilling to acknowledge this, this is a nuisance. The philosophy of truth is at times an impediment to gaining and using power. And then truth becomes secondary to power. In your case it is the power of pursuasion. Your ability to make falsehood into a shining city on a hill to the audience is commendable. Nevetheless, I am unconvinced that your "mission accomplished sign" statements are nothing more than post hoc rationalization.

Nevertheless . . . I am unconvinced that your "mission accomplished sign" statement in response to my "mission accomplished sign" statement, which was in response to zimmy's "mission accomplished" sign statement, which was also responded to by Jim in CT's "mission Accomplished" sign statement which were all "post hoc" rationalizations of previous abundant "post hoc" statements and rationallizations and interpretations and refutations and mocking insultations and repudiations or reconfigurations of an original easily explained (and was) "mission accomplished sign" that was a "nuisance" to Bush haters who needed to conjecture an assault on the "philosophy of truth" to deny him a moment of victory so that the simple truth of the "mission accomplished" sign became secondary to belittling his power, and this never ending saga of meanings for the "mission accomplished sign" has cascaded and slithered all the way into your falsehood that I made a shining city on a hill . . . nevertheless, I am unconvinced that you said anything of substance.

What "mission" do you rationalize that the sign referred to and what actual evidence do you have of that?

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

I'll help ya Spence.

Phone Call by Kuwaiti Courier Led to Bin Laden - ABC News

This article doesn't prove that waterboarding "works", in fact it doesn't even says that the name of the courier was obtained using harsh interrogation techniques. Reality seems to be that information was used from a variety of sources, one having been a person that had previously been waterboarded. This is no way implies that the waterboarding was the reason he gave up the information...

You seem to want to think that because waterboarding was present in the system at some time it must be the reason we were successful. This doesn't pass a basic smell test. Sure, it's possible, but if you don't know, and we do know there are numerous other legal interrogation techniques that could produce the same intel, you really can't say.

If you read my old posts I believe I've said that I'm not against waterboarding as much as I'm against us using it while saying we don't torture. Let's not use bad logic to justify behavior we can't reconcile with our own stated values.

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

If you read my old posts I believe I've said that I'm not against waterboarding.

-spence

you should be waterboarded for some of the things that you try to run up the flag pole

[scottw]

Originally Posted by EarnedStripes44

Speaking of slippery, slithery...

That mission accomplished sign was just a fashionable use in the art of power, not in the philosophy of any truth. Bush learned well. As to those who seem unwilling to acknowledge this, this is a nuisance. The philosophy of truth is at times an impediment to gaining and using power. And then truth becomes secondary to power. In your case it is the power of pursuasion. Your ability to make falsehood into a shining city on a hill to the audience is commendable. Nevetheless, I am unconvinced that your "mission accomplished sign" statements are nothing more than post hoc rationalization.

don't bogart

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by scottw

my first concern, whenever a mas murderer is killed, is that his body is handled properly and buried in strict accordance with the guidelines of the peaceful religeon that he practiced throughout his life, you wouldn't want any of the other followers of the peaceful religeon to be upset that one of it's members, no matter how rogue, devious or deadly was in any way mistreated, even in death glad to know that he was properly prepared for his trip to heaven

What hasn't been mentioned yet is that the burial at sea from the USS Carl Vinson was that the burial's speed was enhanced by use of steam powered catapult when they launched the body. Its true, i read it on the innernets.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

This article doesn't prove that waterboarding "works", in fact it doesn't even says that the name of the courier was obtained using harsh interrogation techniques. Reality seems to be that information was used from a variety of sources, one having been a person that had previously been waterboarded. This is no way implies that the waterboarding was the reason he gave up the information...

You seem to want to think that because waterboarding was present in the system at some time it must be the reason we were successful. This doesn't pass a basic smell test. Sure, it's possible, but if you don't know, and we do know there are numerous other legal interrogation techniques that could produce the same intel, you really can't say.

If you read my old posts I believe I've said that I'm not against waterboarding as much as I'm against us using it while saying we don't torture. Let's not use bad logic to justify behavior we can't reconcile with our own stated values.

-spence

I'm sure Eric Holder could have got the information from them.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

This article doesn't prove that waterboarding "works", in fact it doesn't even says that the name of the courier was obtained using harsh interrogation techniques. Reality seems to be that information was used from a variety of sources, one having been a person that had previously been waterboarded. This is no way implies that the waterboarding was the reason he gave up the information...

You seem to want to think that because waterboarding was present in the system at some time it must be the reason we were successful. This doesn't pass a basic smell test. Sure, it's possible, but if you don't know, and we do know there are numerous other legal interrogation techniques that could produce the same intel, you really can't say.

If you read my old posts I believe I've said that I'm not against waterboarding as much as I'm against us using it while saying we don't torture. Let's not use bad logic to justify behavior we can't reconcile with our own stated values.

-spence

Google "Leon Penata interview" and try to spin what he said.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Google "Leon Penata interview" and try to spin what he said.

There's no spin, read my post above again.

Interestingly the report is now that KSM didn't even give any information up while being waterboarded, but that he actually lied about the link and threw us off the track. In other words, the waterboarding led to bad information.

Paneta's comment seems to be on track. Intel came from a variety of sources. Some sources had been subjected to enhanced techniques at some time, but he makes no connection between waterboarding and specific intel.

If waterboarding is ethical or legal is one argument, but the idea that it directly led (or even had a significant impact) to Bin Laden's capture doesn't seem to be based on any facts.

Because it's not possible to discount 100%, the issue is being used for political reasons.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

There's no spin, read my post above again.

Interestingly the report is now that KSM didn't even give any information up while being waterboarded, but that he actually lied about the link and threw us off the track. In other words, the waterboarding led to bad information.

Paneta's comment seems to be on track. Intel came from a variety of sources. Some sources had been subjected to enhanced techniques at some time, but he makes no connection between waterboarding and specific intel.

If waterboarding is ethical or legal is one argument, but the idea that it directly led (or even had a significant impact) to Bin Laden's capture doesn't seem to be based on any facts.

Because it's not possible to discount 100%, the issue is being used for political reasons.

-spence

You are the Master Spinster Spence. Well done...

In a world that Obama preached of before becoming President, Gitmo would be closed, trials would be in NY and UBL would be free.

I heard a great analogy to this. Obama is like a teenage kid who thought he knew everything, then grew up and realized Dad (GWB) was right all along.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by buckman

then grew up and realized Dad (GWB) was right all along.

Except of course about that damn Iraq mess....

[buckman]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Except of course about that damn Iraq mess....

Don't forget Lybia. Another war started.