Mass. weighs tougher protections for striped bass

[big jay]

Am I totally crazy here -- when the heck did it become written in stone that Bass Fishing now is in the toilet?
Reading all these posts it seems like there are no bass and the fishery is dieing.

I'm normally not this bold online, but I had a kick-ass '09 season, and so did most all of the guys I hang out with/talk to.

I don't get this.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by big jay

Am I totally crazy here -- when the heck did it become written in stone that Bass Fishing now is in the toilet?
Reading all these posts it seems like there are no bass and the fishery is dieing.

I'm normally not this bold online, but I had a kick-ass '09 season, and so did most all of the guys I hang out with/talk to.

I don't get this.

Just guessing here, so please excuse me if I'm wrong. But, based in RI and fishing out of Sandwich you likely had a decent season in CCB and Race Point. You were likely helped by the use of hi grade sonar, GPS, radar, and cell phone contacts. You had access to and the knowledge of a remaining center or body of fish that allowed you to be successful. Guys on BI had something similar. Huge areas in between and to the periphery of that body of fish had nothing. THAT is the sign of trouble.

When fish begin to dwindle, it is the periphery and less bait intensive areas that show the strain first. Ask the guys in Maine how the fishing was. The North Shore. Vineyard Sound. Buzzards Bay.

Consider also 30 years ago. Guys would hammer bass all summer in CCB, just like this year........but while they were doing so guys would be hammering bass behind the Vineyard, off Monomoy, the outer cape, the North Shore, the merrimac, NH, Maine, Narragansett, etc.
That no longer happens, even though there are more people fishing with far better fish finding equipment.

Guys like Cow Hunter have a twisted perspective on things. They are smart fisherman and very competitive. With live/dead bait, advanced electronics, developed networks, mobile rigs, and lots of effort they are able to access and hammer the remaining mass of fish quite successfully. They forget that 30-40 years ago, without any of those tools, many many more people were even more successful than they are now.

Not that they would care. The scarcity of fish drives up the value of what they can still catch. It makes their services as a charter captain worth paying for. $800 for a charter is much easier to justify when each customer comes home with 20-30 lbs of fish worth $10-12/lb. Likewise, the travel and gas expense is well worth it for commercial guys when the price of fish is high........and scarcity keeps the price of fish high.

For most people, however, fishing is not about making money or paying customers, it is about a pleasant diversion from the substantial stress in the rest of their lives. A scarcity of fish ruins that for them. Either they can move on to something else, or they can use their numbers and votes to change the system that ignores them..........at the expense of the guys who profit from a depleted resource.

[JFigliuolo]

It's like George reads my mind...

[MAKAI]

" Nuff " said.

[CowHunter]

The same goes for recreational fishermen. Like it or not, we have no "right" to catch and keep striped bass. As a migratory species their utilization is by law controlled by the Federal government. If we don't like it it is Federal not State law that has to change. That isn't likely (you want NC deciding how many fish they can keep?).

Seeing schools of bass killed like that is upsetting, but the fish in that picture are only a fraction of what got killed in the canal this past memorial day.

(Post sound familiar) - Above Posted by numbskull

Numbskull, am I so twisted??
Is it different than me wanting stripersforever making a decision on whats best for Mass Com guys? Giving everybody 20" slot limits? I dont know anybody that wants 20" slot limits, dont see that as being part of a solution.
And its all comm guys killing the fish in the canal too!

Im not disagreeing with everything you said, I posted alot of my Observations from experience up and down the coast. My problem is the blame is just going on the comms when they in no way kill as many fish as the rec guys. Just look at all the info on NOAA. I dont agree with that 100% because I know that the numbers are much higher. At least the comms hit their number and shut it down.

Alot of those areas you mentioned were dead, most of the time, in July and August. I also did have some of my biggest numbers EVER in areas you mention while people were at home on the internet complaining about no fish.

There are more variables that you are overlooking. There are Way more people fishing for bass then ever. Weather patterns, bait patterns all have changed, all contributing circumstances to what striped bass do. Migration has changed. The EEZ zone protects bass.You may not like the fact that the fish arent holding to their summer patterns, plain and simple. They come through in May and June and dont stop and stay. All those areas you mentioned had a great spring, just the fish didnt stay. For whatever reason there was nothing to hold em there. I guess scup wasnt enough. All the surf guys were happy as could be on Cutty in the Spring remember. Unfortunately surf guys cant go everywhere the fish go, I know because Ive done it since I can remember and its what I love most. So the fish dont hold in the areas you mention in July and August after you had a spectacular run in buzzards bay and vineyard sound in the spring. I know those fish didnt get wiped out. September and October the fish came back through, maybe all not the same route. (In Nj we get the monsters in the spring and miles of rats in the fall. Those fish get wiped out? because they do seem to come through in the spring). Funny I didnt see as many people fishing their in the fall but I can tell you it was not a barren wasteland. Fishing a tourney on a few rockpiles in vinyard sound and nomans I had more fish than I wanted to count, they may not have been monsters but really good number to fish to 25lbs....

I may not have fished 40 years ago so I cant say from experience as to what happened then when the fish were stacked everywhere you went....

Everything I wrote and posted I wrote from my own experiences and observations and not other peoples complaints. I can sit home and complain or go fishing. Your very fortunate to have fishing theraputic for you and something you can selfishly enjoy, been there, done that. Unfortunately I dont always share the same, its not always enjoyable for me when its work. Im forced to go when I dont really want to when its work. Blowin 30, rain, cold, snotty. I will say that I have found it rewarding when I put smiles on many of my clients faces and given em' once in a lifetime trophies along with trips they will never forget.

Im really gonna stop rambling. People want change and change is a coming anyway, maybe do with bass like the fluke, closed zones like the red snapper fishery in the south, divers help make that decision so they can enjoy watching fish swim. There is alot on the table. Me Ill just roll with the punches, no need to complain...

On a side note, They do have pay to fish fish farms where you can catch fish on every cast if it ever came down to it...

[CowHunter]

The above paragraph was posted by Numbskull... I cut and Pasted it.

[Back Beach]

Originally Posted by big jay

Am I totally crazy here -- when the heck did it become written in stone that Bass Fishing now is in the toilet?

I don't think its remotely close yet, but by the time any meaningful regs are put in place we may look back at today as a missed oppotunity if some coast wide tightening on the recreational fishery doesn't occur in the next several years.

[JohnR]

Well, got 30 posts in for my morning reading to catch up on.

Originally Posted by Back Beach

I don't think its remotely close yet, but by the time any meaningful regs are put in place we may look back at today as a missed oppotunity if some coast wide tightening on the recreational fishery doesn't occur in the next several years.

It's going to be a missed opportunity if there isn't significant tightening of the rec & comm fisheries AND better protection of the forage.

[Jackbass]

I am glad I came back to this there is some excellent debate going on here.

No one group is 100 percent correct on this issue but as far as I am concerned the ASMFC will not act conservatively with the fishery. They never will it is up to us as recs or comms to police the fishery and have our voices heard.

Much like what recently happened with addendum two to the Striped Bass Management. It go put down because of overwhelming public outcry against it.

Believe me the guys that have written the bill are not yuppie jerks that just want life to be easier for them to catch fish with their fly rods. The contributors to H796 are From Woods Hole, marine biologists etc.

I am an electrician from MA I have far less of a clue on Marine Fisheries Management than many. I do know the last time we had a summer like we had this year was in the 80's Large fish being pounded off the block out off the rips in MV etc. We all know what happened then. The moratorium. When commercial fishing ended for Striped bass what happened the stocks came back in a Major way. They reopened the comm fishery and we are where we are now. Below average YOY indexes and breeders getting slaughtered.

If it were me in the Mid Atlantic Rock fish tourney and I knew there were guys dumping breeders overboard in lieu of a larger fish. I would not hesitate to report it. Remaining silent on something like that is just as bad as doing it your self. It is fisherman like that, that give us all a bad name.

[jmac]

I have been a commercial rod and reel fisherman since 1972. I have held licenses in RI and MA since licensing was instituted in both states. I file income taxes on all sales of fish. As an aside, I fish recreationally for stripers when they can’t be sold (with a fly rod/light bait-casting I might add). I care deeply for the welfare of ALL fish. I participated in all the striped bass discussion/ forums, etc., in the early 80’s that led to the current regulations promulgated by the AFMSC.
The commercial striped bass fishery has been held to a fixed cap (poundage allowed) for at least 8 or 9 years; it has not increased and is monitored factually. The recreational catch has increased exponentially during that period. People whose job it is to monitor/ regulate the fishery are well aware of that. In MY view, there are several reasons for the recreational increase. Other fish aren’t as “glamorous”, i.e., bluefish, scup, tautog, etc. Another factor, striped bass are a great tasting fish.
In the 70’s, most people I knew were selling bass…..a lot of people did, so they could support their boats, slips, and fondness for fishing. Nowadays, I know few people who fish commercially in both states (they’re just aren’t that many, i.e., licensing procedures, socio-economics, etc). Back then, bluefish, weakfish, tautog, fluke, winter flounder, cod, Pollack, took up the slack. Most of the charter boat industry was trolling rag mops and umbrella rigs for bluefish, chunking for tuna…rarely was the day that the bulk of the charter industry was targeting bass. There were a few at the Rip at Block, the Race in LI Sound, and probably a more dedicated fleet at the Pigs, Chatham, etc.
Nowadays, because the striped bass fishery is in such better shape than it was in the 70, 80’s, more and more recreational fisherman dedicate their effort towards them. Look at spots like SW Point, Ledge, Block Island on a weekend…or Valiant Rock in LI Sound, or Montauk. The East Coast charter industry has dedicated most of their efforts on striped bass…again, take a look at the SW side of Block, Montauk, the Race ( also the proliferation of small boat chartering in inshore bays and sound), Peaked Hill in P-Town, Monomoy…The pressure on striped bass is far greater than anything I saw “back in the old days”….I don’t have any problem with this, the fishery is a resource for ALL fishermen…just don’t blame the commercial rod and reel fisherman (as in MA) for all that is wrong with striped bass. In my eyes, the current situation looks like a ”fish grab” by a certain segment of the fishing community.
I do not see the catastrophic shortage of bass that is discussed in this and other threads….granted, ups and downs in the total biomass are part of the overall fishery. I see a lot of small bass in the early spring in Narragansett Bay (light tackle) and also with pogies during the commercial RI season (in Narragansett Bay). While fishing in MA, I caught a large amount of undersize (commercial limit) bass during the season. If anything, the problem for me and others was the difficulty in finding bait (menhaden).
What baffles me is the utmost disdain that a certain fragment of the recreational sector has for the commercial striped bass fisherman (and sometimes ALL commercial fishermen). Most fishermen I know do it part-time to support their income…just as the part-time carpenter, plumber, landscaper, tax preparer, etc. do, to support their way of life. That is how our capitalistic system works. Also, those who call for half their income come from commercial fishing, would be putting the bulk of the commercial fisherman out of business.
I hate to be long winded, but I had to offer my take on this issue. I did my part for conservation in the early 80’s when the moratorium was in effect (as ALL of us did)- because of that and because we now have laws and commissions which oversee the fishery, we have reached this point where there is a free for all over who gets the biggest share of the pie. All this, because of a well-managed fishery ,that was brought back from near disaster.


-jmac

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by jmac

All this, because of a well-managed fishery ,that was brought back from near disaster.
-jmac

Jmac, your post is a reasonable and good one but it presupposes that the fishery is in fact "well-managed". Right or wrong, the people pushing this bill do not agree that is the case and fear another collapse unless something changes. Forcing the ASMFC to change priorities is what they are after. Throwing commercial fisherman under the bus to get it is the best way they see of accomplishing that change. It is much more (I think) about getting rid of MA's commercial bias in their representation to the ASMFC (and thereby changing the balance of the whole board) than a "resource grab". The people I know who are active in SF (and probably the membership in general) are not interested in keeping fish.....their goal is MORE fish. Selfish? Yup, but not in the way most commercial voices paint it. If the commercial lobby could agree that more fish for everyone is a good goal I suspect the bill/issue would disappear.

As for your point about people hating all commercial fishing in general, I think again you are mistaken. Most people like to buy and eat fish. It is the mismanagement of the fisheries (based on short term commercial profit) that results in long term stock collapses and high cost that people resent.

[Pete F.]

The part that I don't understand about commercial fisheries management is how trawling is regulated and the effect of bycatch on the fisheries. This seems like it has way more impact and is far less visible than any of the other methods of commercial fishing. Some frieds kid spent a year or two as a fisheries observer and said that the waste was incredible. What that means in the big picture I don't know.

[trapperpierre]

......and...... a major reduction of the recreational catch would drastically reduce the amount of fish (striped bass) killed....furthermore, when I proposed the creation of a "new" fishing user group of the the striped bass pie at ASMFC meetings a number of years back...a new sector"Charter Commercial"(by the way a huge group-as indicated by JMac and Cow Hunter that kill numerous fish in large numbers)-the huge charter boat lobby did not approve......it is so obivous .......the recreational and "charter commercials" are decimating the stripers......just open one's eyes...take a look at the nearly 24 7 hit on the stripers taking place along the East Coast..........these sectors are out of control..remember the commercial cap has been frozen for years........the recreational/charter commercial catch have skyrocketed to new heights......and let us all user groups share the resource.........and....the resource grab that is circulating....is in total disgregard for multiple use wise use of the striped bass resource.........everyone involved should be concerned that this excessive disharmony among striped bass resource users...is perfect cannon fodder for extremist enviro groups............we careful, the doors that might open will slap all striped bass fisherman in the face...........share the resource..don't sqauander it................................................ .....................................

[Doublerunner]

It's time to put Omega protein and others like them out of business. They purse seine off shore and of course they are taking all the Menhaden to make millions of dollars off of. As they work in groups with their huge nets they take in all sorts of other fish...like stripers...that are feeding on the menhaden. The stripers get crushed under the weight of tons and tons of menhaden and die. The dead fish are tossed back in the ocean as a by product of the menhaden catch

We need to send letters and emails to our state's legislators to get this practice to stop.

[CowHunter]

Trapperpierre, You are correct Charter / Guide / Headboats do not have their catch reported and they should be on a seperate category or under recreational with a reporting system that is documenented. I am a charter Guide and it is recs that I take out. I think that number should be knocked down to one fish at 36" per person. I know that stripersforever has no clue what the catch is, none whatsover. They do make sure they know the Comm catch...
MikeToole, I am very aware that MD, and VA have a slot limit, mentioned that VA has one in one of the posts, and NJ used to. Do you have an idea how many shore fisherman have acces to em??They keep the bay open in the fall for basically November and december, got 6 weeks to get em BY BOAT then they shut down the entire chesapeake bay til May, alot of fish are up north by then. MD is a bit different. Its open now in VA, your allowed one slot and one over 28". (The ocean fish you are allowed 2 at 28") Slots kill way more fish, way more, the tonage doesnt change the amount of fish do. Numbskull would get his wish and way more people than now, The average Joe, would be killing these fish like they did here in NJ, its a big mistake.
Guys attack me as a mass commercial guy, I just see things from all views because I do charters, and fish recreationally. I see what goes on up and down the coast and Im saying what I thing is going on and what I think is wrong. No Offense DOUBLERUNNER, but I fished the Surf up and down the coast and pulled fish off the Surf in every state from Maine to NJ, I put in way more time then you ever did. You cant learn at your club and books what you can learn from experience.
There are extreme views for rec guys, such as STRIPERSFOREVER, which clearly state to ban all commercial Harvesting for striped bass. Shame on them! On the other end of the Spectrum we have the diehard commercials who wants to kill everything in the ocean by any means necesarry and Sell it! You just have to have a balance, These extreme views are WRONG.
Makai stated this thread is all about money.... Well Yeah...Am I so different from Pete G - Saltwaters Edge??? Who profits from mostly rec guys with some comms Im sure...How would he react if they were closing down the shoreline / waters of newport, prohibiting targeting of striped bass??? How many surf guys would be up in arms? Alot of people make money off striped bass, plug builders, book writers, tackle shop owners, the list goes on and on. Some are fortunate to go out and just have fun..

Water must be getting to me....Ill stop rambling...I fish striped bass from March through January...

[Canalman]

The thing I don't get, is why do you need to supplement your salary with commercial fishing? There are plenty of legit commerical fishermen out there who rely on the ocean to provide for their families. And they can't fall back on writing speeding tickets if they need a push, so why should you be able to sell their fish?

If all states made it necessary to provide proof that commercial fishing made up more than %50 their income, this debate would be moot.

-Dave

[Doublerunner]

I do agree that the rec needs to do their share as well. Thinks about this....if commercial is banned completely how many of those guys will make up for it with charter businesses? And if those are not regulated then it could be worse.

I think some of the wording can be mis-leading to some. A lot of people think when you use the term "rec" fisherman all they think of is the guy taking his kid and fishing from the shore. All the party boats and charter boats are considered rec as well. So separate classifications may be needed to spell it out a bit more specifically.

But regardless of that, as I have stated from the beginning, we all need to do our part. This should not all come off the backs of the commercial guys and I think if the commercial guys worked together with the "on shore" rec guys then we could also limit what the "boat" recs take in

Also, by establishing the license registry and more people having to pay to fish the monies raised should go to more enforcement.

And we really need to get rid of the netting of menhaden. This is a huge problem and if we can't eliminate it then there should be tighter restrictions on amounts and also how they are caught so that there is no by-product kill offs and/or damage to the oceans eco-system

[Slipknot]

that kind of thing touches nerves Dave

and that kind of thing can never happen as long as we have a Constitution.
This is America, you can't dictate who can make a living a certain way, that is rediculous and every time I hear it brought up I think it is rediculous.

"their fish" come on, the fish belong to all of us , it is a natural resource.

Cowhunter, no need to run away mad, you state your reasoning and others have debated, let's not all get carried away please.

[Back Beach]

I don't agree with this Dave. Fishing income can be highly arbitrary based on many factors, which is why next to nobody does it exclusively.

With specific regard to the Mass season, I read out of 3700 plus permit holders, only 100 or so report catching over 3000# of bass annually. Obviously most guys are using it to subsidize an expensive hobby. This means most guys are selling fish for the "wrong" reason, but the free market economy we live in permits this to happen as it does with most industries, thankfully.

[Doublerunner]

Gotta say I don't agree with this. If a guy is busting his hump and doing it legally then who are we to judge. This issue is not about individuals but about the resources that should be available equally and responsibly to all.

In many walks of life people do things to supplement their income, like many of the fishermen I know who make their own plugs which sometimes turns into a side job as they sell them. If you're good at it then people will want what you do. Nothing wrong with it.

Let's keep this about the resources and not about attacks on individuals

[Back Beach]

Originally Posted by CowHunter

No Offense Numbskull, but I fished the Surf up and down the coast and pulled fish off the Surf in every state from Maine to NJ, I put in way more time then you ever did. You cant learn at your club and books what you can learn from experience. Just a fact.

Are you kidding me? Numbskull's been around so long the key on Ben Franklin's kite was to his apartment....I also heard he still owes Jesus three bucks.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by CowHunter

No Offense Numbskull, but I fished the Surf up and down the coast and pulled fish off the Surf in every state from Maine to NJ, I put in way more time then you ever did. You cant learn at your club and books what you can learn from experience. Just a fact.

Easy Cowboy, nobody is questioning your experience or dedication. But please don't lecture me about learning.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by CowHunter

Trapperpierre, You are correct Charter / Guide / Headboats do not have their catch reported .

Sorry, that is B.S. every charter boat that holds federal licenses has to report every trip on a Vessel trip report form no matter where they have been fishing and no matter what species they have been fishing for. I'd wager that somewhere around 99% of all charter/party boats hold federal licenses, so the vast majority of the striped bass catch by charter/party boats is being reported.

[CowHunter]

Makomike, sorry bud but you are wrong... Not all states require guides / charter boats need to report. Not a single captain I know reports in nj and I have an endorsement in mass that does not require a striped bass catch report. New York for instance does...
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Back Beach]

Originally Posted by CowHunter

Makomike, sorry bud but you are wrong... Not all states require guides / charter boats need to report. Not a single captain I know reports in nj and I have an endorsement in mass that does not require a striped bass catch report. New York for instance does...
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

The new Mass commercial regs for 2010 indicate all vessels will need to submit trip level reporting either by mail or electronically. Not sure about other states or charter ops though.
This may help alleviate some of the over runs in the quota as there will be a "real time" tally going versus waiting for the fish houses to submit thier data weekly or longer.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by CowHunter

Makomike, sorry bud but you are wrong... Not all states require guides / charter boats need to report. Not a single captain I know reports in nj and I have an endorsement in mass that does not require a striped bass catch report. New York for instance does...
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Go back and read what I wrote. I was not talking about any state requirement, but rather the federal requirement for all federal permit holders. I'd guess that about 95% of all charter/party boats hold a federal license and they are all required to file federal trip reports for every trip. Frankly, I don't understand how any charter boat could make a living without having a federal license.

[sokinwet]

BB - You may be right on the individual permit; I know there were some changes a couple of yrs. back. In the past my dad, bro and I had to get 3 permits to fish the same boat but the limit was not x3. $130 for my boat permit and endorsements.

I think the new trip level reporting is a very positive change for both the fishermen and the number crunchers. Sure will make the "paperwork" a lot easier and provide more realistic data on the "sub-legal" released category; which in my case is usually an estimate once I run out fingers & toes to count with. ;-) Hey Sandman..you didn't answer my "math" question...just to be fair I guess you're allowed to use your fingers and toes too.

[sokinwet]

"I would say it 2 to 1 the people who just keep everything vs the people who actually sell fish with their license"

I for one would have no problem with those who check "DNF" on their catch reports for over 1 year being required to explain the circumstances prior to renewal.

Just curious guys...what would you say is the ratio or C&R bass fishermen to fisherman who put their 2 in the box whenever they can?

[MAKAI]

Originally Posted by sokinwet

"I would say it 2 to 1 the people who just keep everything vs the people who actually sell fish with their license"

I for one would have no problem with those who check "DNF" on their catch reports for over 1 year being required to explain the circumstances prior to renewal.

Just curious guys...what would you say is the ratio or C&R bass fishermen to fisherman who put their 2 in the box whenever they can?

In my group of twenty or so people I fish with only one always keeps a deuce.
95% of everything legal from the rest of us goes back.

[Saltheart]

Almost nobody I fish with keeps 2 on any given day. I would say 20% keep 1 every few weeks.These guys usually have 5 or 6 mouths to feed and do it to save money on food. 20% keep 1 maybe 2 or 3 times a season. These guys like to have it now and then but do not freeze it and only want it about 2 or 3 times a season.60% put everything back unless they have a very rare request from someone who wants to try striper.
95% of my own caught fish go back in to be caught another day.