Very nice piece from SJ Blog on Striped bass and ASMFC

[afterhours]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

Just remember this guys, when all is said and done the future of striped bass depends on one factor no one can control, the weather. Best the managers can hope for it keep the egg production up (maintain SSB) and pray for good weather.

that is partially true. but we can control what i believe is the ultimate factor- we ALL have to stop killing as many breed stock fish as we do thus more eggs. cut rec take and comm take in half for starters.

[numbskull]

In fact it is exactly why we are trouble now. It is the gambling approach to fishery management. Preserve some level of spawners and hope for a banner year. And it worked. They got their banner year in 2011, and that means more of the same.

The better way is to ensure a much larger spawning stock so that even mediocre years contribute meaningful fish to the population. Twice as many spawners mean twice as many offspring and double a YOY result, which goes a long way towards turning a bad year into an average year. Unfortunately, those spawners are worth money dead. So we manage with the goal to kill most of them and hope for the weather to save us by generating a banner year once every generation. Brilliant.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[MAKAI]

Hope and change.
More Fn hope and change !
Hope, isn't a plan.
Just pollyanna thinking.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by numbskull

The better way is to ensure a much larger spawning stock so that even mediocre years contribute meaningful fish to the population. Twice as many spawners mean twice as many offspring and double a YOY result, which goes a long way towards turning a bad year into an average year.

Sorry but it just don't work that way. There are plenty of eggs being laid every year, just look at 2011. The problem is that, given the wrong weather pattern very few of those eggs turn into fish.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by Mr. Sandman

I remember when they correlated the production to sunspot activity...really!

Read this and then get back to me: http://www.bayjournal.com/article/li...ahead_for_fish

If you like, I have the URL for the scientific paper published by Martino, but I think it costs $25 to access it.

[Zeal]

I'm no authority on any of this, I just know what I have seen over the years growing up but to me, stripers are an uncommon and sometimes rare fish to catch (boat are not) depending on the year. I always thought something was wrong.

To me, wouldn't it make sense to just make Stripers a catch and release only type fish? This way the fisherman can still fish them and they still have the chance to grow. Wouldn't the mortality rate of foul hooking be much lower than what we see now along with the select population of idiots keeping the fish until they get slammed with a fine?

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

Sorry but it just don't work that way. There are plenty of eggs being laid every year, just look at 2011. The problem is that, given the wrong weather pattern very few of those eggs turn into fish.

Are you serious?

No matter how bad the conditions, some percentage of the total eggs laid turn into fish every year. If you double the number of eggs laid (by doubling the number of breeders) that same percentage results in twice as many YOY unless there is a severe limiting food shortage......which is hard to believe since larvae are very small and eat plankton.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[stripermaineiac]

Good weather and low rainfall keeps the insecticides and bug chemicals out of the spawning areas when the eggs are hatching for both stripers and what they feed on. Bob Pond proved this fact time an again. The process needs tweeking so that it works not completely scrapped. Incomplete data and ruling out what doesn't agree with what the controling interest wants is a major part of the problem. Benchmarck for max sustainable yeild only works for the smallest group that makes money out of it not the bulk of the users.
The only reason I don't agree with having someone dictate management without public comment is that the controling interest doesn't take care of the fish.Take care of the fish and everyone will benefit .not just any one user group.

[Saltheart]

The reasons for the sharp decline in the striped bass harvest during the 1970s and 1980s are complex. Scientists determined that overfishing caused the striped bass population to become more susceptible to natural stresses and pollution. (The principle gear used in the Chesapeake Bay commercial striped bass fishery included pound nets, haul seines, and drift, anchor and stake gillnets.) In particular, fluctuations in water temperature in spawning grounds cause significant natural stress. But this is not the only stressor.
Low dissolved oxygen (DO) in the deeper water of the upper Chesapeake Bay and in other areas has eliminated much of the summer habitat of adult and juvenile striped bass.
Acidity and contaminants in spawning habitats may have influenced the mortality of striped bass larvae in the Choptank, Nanticoke and Potomac rivers. Research indicates that highly acidic rain reacts with aluminum in the soil, causing it to dissolve in the water, which is lethal to newly hatched stripers.
Salinity, turbidity, light, temperature and pH also affect the survival of striped bass in their habitat.
Larval striped bass are also susceptible to toxic pollutants such as arsenic, copper, cadmium, aluminum and Malathion, a commonly used pesticide.
Other hypotheses for the decline of striped bass in the Bay include starvation of larvae, unfavorable climatic events, changes in water use practices, competition with other species for food and space, and poor water quality due to agricultural runoff and sewage treatment practices.
Despite these threats, the striped bass stocks continue gradually to increase in the Bay. Because the Bay remains the main spawning and nursery area for 70 percent to 90 percent of the Atlantic stock, restoration efforts remain critically important to the future of the striped bass in the Chesapeake Bay

http://www.stripers247.com/Spawning-Stripers.php

[Saltheart]

The article state that the most successful survival group of hatching stripers are those that have come from eggs with large yolk sacks. This happens when the females are about 10 years old or older. a look at an age vs length chart will show that these best breeding females with eggs that have large yolk sacks happens at a length of about 35 inches. They certainly do produce eggs that hatch successfully before this but at about 10 years old/35 inches , the survival rate of the hatched eggs goes way up do to the availability of the food in the well developed yolk sacks. Also this size female produces many more eggs as well as the more well developed eggs.

This single fact alone says that the "keeper" size limit for maximum spawning success should be somewhere in the 35 inch range , give or take some for average vs high and low lengths vs age.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by from the (aptly named)numbskull school of fishery management

No matter how bad the conditions, some percentage of the total eggs laid turn into fish every year. If you double the number of eggs laid (by doubling the number of breeders) that same percentage results in twice as many YOY unless there is a severe limiting food shortage......which is hard to believe since larvae are very small and eat plankton.

You ass-U-me that some percentage of the total eggs will turn into fish. We don't know that, for all we know doubling, tripling or quadrupling the number of eggs will increase the YOY index by zero. We don't know what causes the failure to turn eggs into fish. But by your logic we should shut down all fishing on the hope that it will somehow increase the YOY incises.

Sorry I'm not willing to deny the pleasure of striped bass fishing to millions of fishermen, on some untested and unscientific theory.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by stripermaineiac

Good weather and low rainfall keeps the insecticides and bug chemicals out of the spawning areas when the eggs are hatching for both stripers and what they feed on. Bob Pond proved this fact time an again.

Did you read the article? That is the exact opposite of what the scientists found. High rainfall is the event that causes increased survival.

[Saltheart]

High rainfall causes more current which help to keep the eggs suspended in the current rather than sinking to the bottom where they suffocate. In this sense , high rainfall helps survivability.

However....high rainfall increases the amounts of chemicals in the runoff from the watershed. This is a particular problem in the northern watershed of the Chesapeake which extends way up into central Pennsylvania. This area has many small farms where the farmers use large amounts of fertilizer and insecticide to maximize yield from their relatively small acreage. The more rain , the more these farming chemicals run off into the Chesapeake Bay from that area of the watershed. It further causes the ph of the runoff and bay waters to the acidic size which results in the leaching of metals like copper and aluminum from the soil. These metals leaching into the Bay are lethal to hatched eggs.

This info jives with what Bob Pond used to tell me over the years when I would frequently go to the Atom Factory which was 15 minutes from my house.

[stripermaineiac]

Mike, I've got copies of all that stuff. I watched Bob beat his head against commercial interest for decades so that the money would keep flowing. He all but put ATom under using it to fund research with one goal. Keep the striped bass viable for all interests not just sportfishing.His research was irefutable but because he didn't have PEW funding or large corperate and big name political backing-Kennedy-it was ignored and shot down . Many of use helped and did the grunt work. It was a real eye opener.The moratorium helped the fish to rebound. things were going better till by-catch and commercial take pushed by more sportfishermen started things to reverse.Now the numbers are dropping faster. Things will get changed for the better.Your name calling and insults just show your interest are self serving to the point you could care less as to what happens to the fish.A load of us feel different. Catch n release and sportfish status will all be determined in the next year.A huge anti fishing lobby is just waiting for the chance to shut it all down. If you wish to keep being part of the problem fine. Year after year retorick like yours gets less and less prevolent and conservation mindedness increases as our feelings towards a fish change.that's a positive . Yes like i said i'm selfish. I want my grand kids to be able to catch stripers even if it is just to throw them back.Not to line my pockets.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

You ass-U-me that some percentage of the total eggs will turn into fish. We don't know that, for all we know doubling, tripling or quadrupling the number of eggs will increase the YOY index by zero. We don't know what causes the failure to turn eggs into fish. But by your logic we should shut down all fishing on the hope that it will somehow increase the YOY incises.

Sorry I'm not willing to deny the pleasure of striped bass fishing to millions of fishermen, on some untested and unscientific theory.

You are losing it, Mike, when you need to resort to insults and wild ridiculous distortions and extrapolations.

You are also losing it when you pull out the same old tired "the science isn't good enough so we shouldn't change a thing" BS......particularly after you have made such a strong claim that the entire fishery management is based on science ( which it is not).

Your postulate that more eggs will not result in more YOY is totally ridiculous unless the YOY number is determined by a single absolute limiting condition such as food supply. It is not and you should know that. Egg survival is dependent on a whole host of factors that destroy a large percentage of eggs laid.....some years more than others. Lay more eggs then more eggs make it to adulthood FOR ANY GIVEN MORTALITY RATE.

You should be familiar with all this. It is exactly what you are doing with self-serving misinformation. Spout more of it and more of it will stick.

Your agenda here is to support commercial fishing and the management process that is beholden to it. You made it clear you don't fish for bass any more, yet you are neck deep in an argument about their management on a board populated by recreational fishermen. Your bias is clear, as is ours, leave it at that rather than creating lame lies, false claims, and childish insults to cover your tracks.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[MakoMike]

O.K. I'll say it one more time and then I'm done with this thread. THE LAW requires that the stock be managed using the best available science and attempt to reach optimum yield (MSY) If you don't like it, work to get the law changed, until then the managers will do what they are directed to do. Gamefish status is an individual state matter, as the law stands now the ASMFC would be violating the law if they attempted to make stripers a game fish.

[Slipknot]

time to buy another flyrod


maybe basic patrick can clue us in on upcoming meetings and lawmakers so we can get the law moving in the right direction, hope and change, ya that's it

[stripermaineiac]

Look at the ASMFC site Slip and find the part on the appeals process. i've been on the phone with some of the northern reps to see if that might be the way to go to fix some of the problems due to the economic impact of the lower numbers of fish landings coast wide.Appeal specific parts of the process with specific changes to improve things for the fish.Fix the fish problem and everyone including the fish benefit.

[Mr. Sandman]

I am going with the sunspot theory...

[stripermaineiac]

I don't know about you Jim but before the internet and cell phone we caught way more fish.LOL Might have something to do with it LOL.Way too easy for people. we normally had to find our fish on our own.LOL

[ProfessorM]

The wise does at once what the fool does at last. I just hope this all gets fixed before it's too late. I know it is a heated debate and emotions run high,but I would be curious how many that come here to the site would be for gamefish status. I think it would be interesting to have a poll on this just to see.

[stripermaineiac]

I'm for it.

[Saltheart]

Originally Posted by ProfessorM

The wise does at once what the fool does at last. I just hope this all gets fixed before it's too late. I know it is a heated debate and emotions run high,but I would be curious how many that come here to the site would be for gamefish status. I think it would be interesting to have a poll on this just to see.

Start a poll thread!

[BasicPatrick]

I was at the meeting and working the rec commissioners hard. It was very disappointing that MA & CT were the only states to vote for reductions in 2014. The fact that NY & NJ went the other way was disheartening. I hope anglers in those states hammer their commissioners.

[OLD GOAT]

Trying to follow everything said and realize that you're not touching on another unknown factor. SEAL FOOD.
I HAVE A CHANCE TO WATCH THE CUTE SEALS EATING BASS,ONE AFTER ANOTHER,NON STOP.
UNLIKE MYSELF THEY DON'T TAKE TIME OUT FOR HOT DOGS & BEANS.
In the mid 80's I was blessed with the ability to leave my house, drive down Nauset beach, catch two bass[forty lb class] and drive home within five or six hours.

To quote Numby, I'll never live long enough to see that again. The biomass will not be around long enough to reach that age group.
Not out in seal infested outer cape

[Mr. Sandman]

didn't they even try and increase the quota within the last 2 or 3 years in spite of the poor trends? (it is all becoming a big blurr)

Mark this post. When the comms finish off the bass off chatham (just like they did at gay head) they will be moving to get into the eez next. (Heck I have seen guys fishing it already...there is no one out there to nab them either)