Gun Owners.. Ball is in your court

[Fishpart]

Most of the issues related to the now "gun violence" have some relationship to mental health. How much of it is a result of illegal drugs which are in many cases someone looking for a way out of their own private hell. Good article pasted below.


Chris Harper Mercer, the man who killed nine people in Oregon yesterday, was almost certainly profoundly mentally ill. According to neighbors, Mercer isolated himself from others, communicated largely through the Internet and lived in the basement of his mother’s house in Torrance, California before moving to Oregon.

He was frequently seen wearing camouflage pants and combat boots. And he reportedly left a note at the scene of his rampage yesterday stating he had no girlfriend and no life and would be welcomed in Hell and embraced by the devil.

I certainly never examined Mr. Mercer, but these details, if true, may point to conditions like schizoid personality disorder, Asperberger’s syndrome or even schizophrenia, any of which can dramatically limit the ability to socialize and empathize with others, contribute to feelings of emptiness and isolation and spawn anything from intense depression to paranoid delusions.

Given the fact that Mercer lived for a time with his mother during his adult years, was noticed to be peculiar by neighbors and had acquaintances online, I would venture that more than one person knew he was not well.


If the president had a son like Chris Mercer, believe me, he would not be content to have his ill son live in a country where he could not procure firearms quite as easily. He would want his son’s disorder definitively diagnosed and definitively treated.

I do not know whether he ever got anything like comprehensive help, but it is hard to believe he could have, given what happened Thursday.

Violence of the kind perpetrated by Chris Mercer is always preventable through a combination of psychotherapy, proper medications and hospitalizations when needed.

Period. There is no exception.

But people like Chris Mercer keep falling through the cracks of our shattered, sorry excuse for a mental health care system. This is tragic and unnecessary, because outreach and screening systems could be put in place that would be neither prohibitively expensive, nor an impingement on anyone’s liberty.

One of the hurdles in the way of building a system to prevent killings like those that occurred in Oregon is that politicians like President Obama turn such tragedies into reprehensible calls for gun control, rather than proper calls to rebuild the mental health care system.

Somehow, the uncontrolled psychiatric symptoms of one man should justify, in the president’s mind, curtailing the liberties of all men.

If the president had a son like Chris Mercer, believe me, he would not be content to have his ill son live in a country where he could not procure firearms quite as easily. He would want his son’s disorder definitively diagnosed and definitively treated. That would be, after all, the humane thing and the right thing to do.

Instead, the president, through his utterly absurd public comments after this tragedy, argues for an America where men like Chris Mercer (of which there are many, many thousands who will never hurt a soul) are free to live lives of terrible desperation and suffering in the shadowy basements of suburban homes, lost in delusions and wandering the streets.

Fixing things, for real, is always harder than burying them, whether for convenience or to achieve political gain.

The president’s proposed solution to the rash of mass shootings plaguing our nation, which have been due almost exclusively to mental illness, would be no solution at all.



Dr. Keith Ablow is a psychiatrist and member of the Fox News Medical A-Team.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Fishpart

Most of the issues related to the now "gun violence" have some relationship to mental health. .

..in a society where we drug youth as a substitute to discipline, drug the population as a substitute to coping with life and then force feed graphic violence etc. through every media outlet devaluing human life making death seem routine and often entertaining...not a wonder some flip out....turn on the TV...it's a relentless how-to in how to be a maniac...you reap what you sow ....sadly sometimes

[spence]

Originally Posted by Fishpart

I certainly never examined Mr. Mercer, but these details, if true, may point to conditions like schizoid personality disorder, Asperberger’s syndrome or even schizophrenia, any of which can dramatically limit the ability to socialize and empathize with others, contribute to feelings of emptiness and isolation and spawn anything from intense depression to paranoid delusions.

It's Aspergers Syndrome. I really hope that was just a mistake by a tech writer or web admin...but this guy has a reputation as being a Fox News dope so who knows...

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

It's Aspergers Syndrome. I really hope that was just a mistake by a tech writer or web admin...but this guy has a reputation as being a Fox News dope so who knows...

this guy wrote the book

[spence]

Originally Posted by scottw

this guy wrote the book

Not on Asperbergers.

[The Dad Fisherman]

there are some good points made...and some that aren't. The problem is everybody has that All or Nothing mentality....the answer is in the middle.

[Nebe]

This would be a simple way to implement proper gun control. Create an endorsement on drivers liscense system for gun ownership. To obtain this endorsement, you would have to take a gun safety class. The system is already in place as this would be like getting a motorcycle liscense.
Eliminate gun shows and sales should only happen in gun stores. Simply showing your liscense with the endorsement on it allows you to purchase what you want.

The beauty of this system is that the criminal background check, and your police record can be accessed by the DMV and thus would provide some form of screening.

A gun endorsement would expire every 2 years and would be renewed online by paying a few bucks that would be used to fund the system, much like how the fishing liscense works.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[tysdad115]

In MA we already have to take a safety course prior to turning in an application for and FID/LTC.

[redlite]

Originally Posted by tysdad115

In MA we already have to take a safety course prior to turning in an application for and FID/LTC.

Again for the cheap seats mass has the most stringent gun laws/ permit issue guidelines in the country
Steps are
1. Attain application for license to carry from police department in which you legally reside
2. Pay to take certified safety course in which u have to safely demonstrate how to handle and fire handgun. Then pass written exam
3. Pay to get passport pictures
4. Submit in writing detailed request and reason for license to carry along with non-refundable fee to local police department
That information is then processed by the ATF and FBI for criminal back ground check( Thats right, the FEDS do the backround check). Upon completion it is returned to the local police department. Then it is ultimarely solely at the descretion of the presiding police chief of the town you leaglly reside in. It is also at the descretion of the police chief weather u are approved for a class A high cApacity/ all lawful purposes permit or a target only permit or denied all together as has happened in many cases. I know that for years carver had a female cheif that outright would not issue any concealed LTCs at all what so ever despite many lawsuits. It was her legal option which she executed. (She is gone and residents are now able to attainnLtCs)
Also in mass there is no difference between purchasing a firearm weather at an established gun shop or at a gun show. Here in mass anytime a legal firearm sale is made the dealer needs to call the atf with all buyer and seller info right there on the spot and wait for approval from the federal ATF before transaction can be completed
Only loop hole in mass that is slowly being closed is private sale from one person to another.

It is tragic that incidents such as this are on the rise in other parts of the country

No amount of legislation will stop or curb those illegally possesing firearms from using them illegally becuase they already dont care about the laws anyway
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[redlite]

Also the NRA has no political representation/ clout in mass. Here we have an organization called G.O.A.L. - gun owners action league that supposedly fights for our rightsbas gun owners here in mass tho not really sure about what they actually accomplish
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[spence]

Originally Posted by redlite

Also the NRA has no political representation/ clout in mass. Here we have an organization called G.O.A.L. - gun owners action league that supposedly fights for our rightsbas gun owners here in mass tho not really sure about what they actually accomplish
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Perhaps the answer is here?

http://timelines.latimes.com/deadlie...ting-rampages/

[basswipe]

MY god!!!!!

How about ban "gun free" zones and arm the damn campus police!!!Instant fix!!!

We can find billions of dollars to give illegals everything for free but we can't find a goddamn dime to have a cop or well trained security guard at a school to protect our children.

To the guy who started this thread:there's a reason why people like you get lost in a one stalk corn-maze.

[spence]

Originally Posted by basswipe

MY god!!!!!

How about ban "gun free" zones and arm the damn campus police!!!Instant fix!!!

We can find billions of dollars to give illegals everything for free but we can't find a goddamn dime to have a cop or well trained security guard at a school to protect our children.

To the guy who started this thread:there's a reason why people like you get lost in a one stalk corn-maze.

Welcome back

[tysdad115]

Originally Posted by basswipe

MY god!!!!!

How about ban "gun free" zones and arm the damn campus police!!!Instant fix!!!

We can find billions of dollars to give illegals everything for free but we can't find a goddamn dime to have a cop or well trained security guard at a school to protect our children.

Bravo.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[blondterror]

The type of discussion that I wanted to start in this thread is to get some quality input from gun owners like this guy... not the negative vitrole that I have seen in the posts above... get with the program guys.. take a look at this video... here is a gun owner who realized we have a problem and he makes sense.. things need to change and this guy makes perfect sense

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10206718620758282

Yes I realize MASS has some of the toughest gun laws in the land... we need national laws and this guys ideas make a lot more sense than what we have today...

[blondterror]

Getting a gun for a young troubled man or woman should not be easy ... here is a tongue and cheek idea that questions the Right wing politicians who are in the NRA's pocket and who like they know best for Women's Reproductive rights...



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From a post that making the rounds on social media:

After yet another horrific gun massacre in the United States, how to stop these incidences from occurring is still being vehemently debated. It seems our politicians can’t agree on ANY sort of solution, because one side of the debate is too worried about getting elected, or reelected, or being shunned by the NRA.

However, there is currently a Facebook post being circulated that offers a pretty great solution, and it also points out how horribly women are treated and how many hurdles they have to jump through to have control over their own body.

The post reads:


“Or, hey, how about we treat every young man who wants to buy a gun like every woman who wants to get an abortion — mandatory 48-hr waiting period, parental permission, a note from his doctor proving he understands what he’s about to do, a video he has to watch about the effects of gun violence, an ultrasound wand up the ass (just because). Let’s close down all but one gun shop in every state and make him travel hundreds of miles, take time off work, and stay overnight in a strange town to get a gun. Make him walk through a gauntlet of people holding photos of loved ones who were shot to death, people who call him a murderer and beg him not to buy a gun.



I makes more sense to do this with young men and guns than with women and health care, right? I mean, no woman getting an abortion has killed a room full of people in seconds, right?”

[scottw]

[QUOTE=blondterror;1083493]Getting a gun for a young troubled man or woman should not be easy ... here is a tongue and cheek idea that questions the Right wing politicians who are in the NRA's pocket and who like they know best for Women's Reproductive rights...



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moronic Facebook posts are not original ideas(sorry but that wasn't "tongue and cheek" it was dumb) ...here's a video...



I like it because it reflects what we've seen here...when pressed for an original thought...the folks cackling..."do something, we need to do something" can't come up with much in terms of thoughts beyond insults and the oft repeated "BS" that they pretend not to like...Mark Halperin, a journalist, apparently can't put a coherent thought together when it's not on a script in front of him, and Mika?...well...not much there...there...the look on the faces of Dean and whoever is sitting behind him when they pan the camera is precious, pick your jaws up off the table boys...

.Cooke also has a nice article regarding Hillary's recent posturing on the issue

http://www.nationalreview.com/node/425112/print

[FishermanTim]

Not a gun owner (except for a bb rifle).
I believe in the 2nd amendment.

As for these shooters, rules and regulations regarding gun ownership only serve to restrict the ability of those that should be able to obtain them. It will not serve as a deterrent for any of these mental-defectives to prevent them from doing harm on a large scale. Background checks will not weed out those that haven't been diagnosed for or are hiding their sociopathic issues.

How could any background check find out if someone hasn't been diagnosed as manic-depressive or schizophrenic? Will they find out if he/she isn't taking their meds?

If things continue down the path they seem to be heading right now (no changes see to be on the horizon), it may be more prudent to let everyone that wants to have a gun have one. With this would be the added responsibility of the gun owners and added punishments that would result from abusing the right to own the gun.

[Rockport24]

Here's what doesn't add up: the main reason why these mass shootings are happening now more than ever is because guns are readily available.

Do you anti-gun guys believe this? So there is nothing else wrong with society that is causing this? Or is it those other wrongs just don't fit the anti agenda?

Tell me, are guns easier to get now than say, 30 years ago when these mass shootings never happened? And I'm not talking about reciprocity of licenses from state to state, background checks if anything, are required more now than ever
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[tysdad115]

Blame people, not guns. This is not negative vitrole. Shall not be infringed.
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[spence]

Originally Posted by tysdad115

Blame people, not guns. This is not negative vitrole. Shall not be infringed.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Just keep repeating that to yourself.

Here's the problem with that line of thinking. You could say the exact same thing about cars. Yet the government has invested billions in making cars safer, making highways safer and creating more regulations to make drivers safer...and it's worked...dramatically.

Did you know that current law prohibits the Government (CDC) from scientific studies on firearms deaths? We used to do it, up until the NRA lobbied to kill the funding in 1996. There's an old saying in business "you can't fix what you don't measure."

The idea that we can't even study the root causes of gun related death is absurd. Hey, if more guns makes you safer the only way to know is through long-term research.

Ultimately you have to make guns harder to get as the gun proponent in the facebook video so clearly states. It has to be Federal so Jim can't keep reciting the same absurd talking point about Chicago. It has to be long term. There are things you can do to make guns safer and harder to steal. We have to take mental heath more seriously for sure and yes, this could mean having some people's rights infringed.

But none of this is going to happen until the NRA stops using it's deep pockets to bully politicians and whip gun advocates into a panicked frenzy of fear that the boogie man is going to destroy their freedoms.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

The idea that we can't even study the root causes of gun related death is absurd.

.

whose idea was this?...never hear of it

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Just keep repeating that to yourself.

Here's the problem with that line of thinking. You could say the exact same thing about cars. .

Again, if it's the gun and not the person, please explain the lack of gun violence in the Dakotas, despite astronomical rates of gun ownership.

Is it population density? Do you think that if you took all the people of the Dakotas, and squished them into a smaller space, they'd eventually start killing each other in huge numbers?

It's culture and values. The type people who live in the Dakotas embrace a culture that does not often lend itself to barbaric violence. That doesn't jive well with liberalism, but try making it wrong.

Let's react to what the facts actually are, not what one side desperately wants the facts to be.

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Again, if it's the gun and not the person, please explain the lack of gun violence in the Dakotas, despite astronomical rates of gun ownership.

Is it population density? Do you think that if you took all the people of the Dakotas, and squished them into a smaller space, they'd eventually start killing each other in huge numbers?

It's culture and values. The type people who live in the Dakotas embrace a culture that does not often lend itself to barbaric violence. That doesn't jive well with liberalism, but try making it wrong.

Let's react to what the facts actually are, not what one side desperately wants the facts to be.

They don't use guns but they sure love their hate crimes
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

They don't use guns but they sure love their hate crimes
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"They" do? All of them?

Chicago now averages 50 shootings per weekend. Those aren't hate crimes but rather, are expressions of empathy for one another?

Again, instead of commending the people in the Dakotas for being able to live with on another despite guns being everywhere, our President insults them (bitter clingers), and so did you just now. You are both more concerned with attacking your political adversaries, than you are with solving this problem.

The solution is there, in the culture they embrace, which leads directly to the way they treat one another, and the way they behave. But we can't say that out loud, because most of them happen to be white and church-going. So we can't point to them and say, "this is how you are supposed to behave".

Whites who behave this way are bitter clingers and racists. Blacks who choose to behave this way are Uncle Toms who aren't really black, but a bunch of Fox News sellouts. A professor at UPenn said this week that Dr Ben Carson deserves the "coon of the year" award. All that liberal tolerance. Because if you genuinely care about others but happen to be conservative, you must still be portrayed as part of the problem.

[tysdad115]

My way of thinking is only a problem to people like you. The root cause of gun related death is people. Chicago is a prime example of what we have allowed society to become. Rahm should run for president, like we don't have enough of their trash already occupying the big office. But lets not look at the whole picture, keep on rationalizing to yourself that the low life drug dealing thugs out there are just poor victims being held back and if guns weren't illegally obtained they would all sit in a circle and share a coke and a smile together.

[Fly Rod]

Hillary to the rescue....she is going to solve mass murders IF elected

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34447239

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

Just keep repeating that to yourself.

There's a lot of repeating on both sides of this issue.

Here's the problem with that line of thinking. You could say the exact same thing about cars. Yet the government has invested billions in making cars safer,

I would prefer that the auto companies spent the billions in making cars safer. If "the government" wants to point a gun at them and make them do stuff, just pass laws to make them do whatever it wants them to do. It's a free country--as in the government is free to do unto others.

making highways safer and creating more regulations to make drivers safer...and it's worked...dramatically.

Interstate highways are actually a constitutional responsibility of the Federal Government. Didn't market competition always result in improved products over time even without government mandates, including better and safer cars? Oh, right . . . some things would never improve if the government didn't make it so. Hmmm . . . though highways and drivers and even cars have become safer, there are still more deaths and injuries because of them than because of guns. What is it, in the 30 thousands deaths per year now? Is that considered an acceptable number since the government has spent billions and made so many regulations? Maybe it'll have to spend more billions and make more regulations . . . for an even more dramatic results.

Did you know that current law prohibits the Government (CDC) from scientific studies on firearms deaths?

Right, only the government can make scientific studies.

We used to do it, up until the NRA lobbied to kill the funding in 1996. There's an old saying in business "you can't fix what you don't measure."

Wow . . . "business" actually has something (very little to nothing) to say in your discussion.

The idea that we can't even study the root causes of gun related death is absurd. Hey, if more guns makes you safer the only way to know is through long-term research.

Again . . . "we" the government must do the studying. Actually, studies re guns making you safer have been done by private sources and people showing that they do. Maybe the term was not long enough for you . . . or the government. I think the government prefers longer and longer terms since that costs more and more money. The government likes to spend money.

Ultimately you have to make guns harder to get as the gun proponent in the facebook video so clearly states.

Yes, and you ("the government?") have to make cars harder to get since they cause more deaths than guns. And make lots of other dangerous stuff like knives, hammers, various foods, and so on, harder to get. Maybe tax and regulate all that stuff more.

It has to be Federal so Jim can't keep reciting the same absurd talking point about Chicago.

Yes, it must be Federal! Local governments are obsolete. They just don't get it. They are too influenced by the people. Things, for better life and justice and freedom, should more properly be coerced by the superior wisdom of centralized bureaucrats.

It has to be long term. There are things you can do to make guns safer and harder to steal.

Yes, of course, long term . . . the longer and costlier the better. Forever, never ending, better regulations created, of course, by Federal regulatory agencies--the only true, correct and just arbiters and promulgators of actual "government."

We have to take mental heath more seriously for sure and yes, this could mean having some people's rights infringed.

Yes We (the Federal Government?) have to take it more seriously. After all, We The Government is best suited to eliminate those annoying differences among We The People which cause so many problems. Mental health should definitely be left in the hands of the Federal Government.

And, oh . . . by the way . . . yes "some" people's rights will be infringed. After all, that is the side effect of all the wonderful trillions of dollars spent and hundreds of thousand regulations made by the Federal Government . . . "some people's" in toto actually being "all" of the people's.

But none of this is going to happen until the NRA stops using it's deep pockets to bully politicians and whip gun advocates into a panicked frenzy of fear that the boogie man is going to destroy their freedoms.

Not the boogie man. The "government" with its even vastly deeper (seemingly unlimited) pockets and regulations used to bully us all into a panicked frenzy of fear over every "crisis" it invents or takes advantage of into living life the "government's" correct and safe way.

[tysdad115]

Just saw this somewhere else and the solution is brilliant!- "There has been a lot of talk lately about gun control and regulation (as often follows a tragedy involving firearms). The discussion is vague: "something needs to be done" or "guns need to be restricted", etc, but no one has real answers about how this happens. Then there is always the "guns don't kill, people do" argument on the other side. However, many are missing the point and the true underlying issue. The problem isn't as complex as "how many bullets can a magazine hold" (7, 10, 30?) or "what type of gun can people own" (handgun, bolt-action, shotgun, semi-auto?). The problem is that people are killing each other. We all need recognize that murder is the issue. We need to stand up and fight for common sense and force our government to make murder illegal once and for all."

[Raven]

Originally Posted by tysdad115

We all need recognize that murder is the issue. We need to stand up and fight for common sense and force our government to make murder illegal once and for all."

we are very much closer to understanding the human brain as a whole
and in the not so far off future a psych exam will reveal homicidal
tendencies of certain individuals showing that they should not possess
weapons and any access to a relatives weapons as happened at sandy hook...

has to be especially restricted.