RISAA Tournament

[JohnR]

Next weekend is the RISAA MS Shore Tourney with proceeds going to Multiple Sclerosis.

I need to know - quickly if people here would fish the tourney as Team S-B if I provided the entry fee ($50 team fee, nothing for team members). It's a shore only RI tournament.

The details are sketchy at this point but it is run much like the Fall MDA Surf Club Challenge.

If you are interested, please add your name to the list if you are in or a maybe

Thanks,

John

[BasicPatrick]

John,

I am seriously considering not fishing Tri state and fishin for S-B in this one.

It seems there are better quality fish in RI right now and I have already set this weekend aside for fishing.

If people are interested in putting together a S-B team is anyone interested in grabbing a room for the S-B Team. You know 4, 5, 6 of us just having a crash pad to nap out and coordinate our efforts.

[Nebe]

i'm in

[spence]

I'm in...

-spence

[Iwannakeeper]

I am game. I haven't fished RI yet and would love to head out with a team.

[In The Surf]

In!

[cheferson]

Im in

[redcrbbr]

count me in, may be in stealth mode

[leptar]

maybe

[JohnR]

Well, apparently we missed the dealine though some had told me it was still open. I wish it had been better documented. There is also apparently some controversy (again) on whether we can be defined as a "club" in tourneys such as these. I will keep you all up to date as I find out more.

So, with that all said, if you do intend to fish, please do so as a member of your respective organizations. I know the Newport Club is fishing so if I enter anything, it will likely be under the Newport Club...

Thanks,

John

[SeaWolf]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Well, apparently we missed the dealine though some had told me it was still open. I wish it had been better documented. There is also apparently some controversy (again) on whether we can be defined as a "club" in tourneys such as these. I will keep you all up to date as I find out more.

So, with that all said, if you do intend to fish, please do so as a member of your respective organizations. I know the Newport Club is fishing so if I enter anything, it will likely be under the Newport Club...

Thanks,

John

i have to agree with the "club" controversy again. we went over this last fall and i don't want to make this a big battle again. i am sure many of those the browse, post, and signed up for sb.com to fish are members of clubs entered into this tournament. go out there this weekend and support your club and fish for them! if you are not a member of one of the participating clubs, come to the awards breakfast and ask some of the participating clubs about how to join their club.

[JohnR]

Seawolf, I'm not looking to go full circle on this again but like I said last time, the amount of ways we function as a "club" and in many ways go beyond traditional clubs, plus the way we support traditional clubs is all the more reason we should be included in these tournaments.

Unlike some of these other clubs, we don't get our panties all in a bunch when someone that is a member of another club choses to fish for another club. If you use a legal definition of clubs, such as state or federally recognized organizations forumlated with regs and guidelines (like Robert's Rules) then half the clubs fishing these tournaments would need to be disqualified.

I am just a little disturbed that some clubs and some people feel the need to define a narrow set of rules to define "clubs" and are likely missing the point here. The point is to foster some generally good natured competition between organizations AND support a good cause at the same time.

[DZ]

John,
Our club (Newport County) is indeed entered. Feel free to enter any eligible fish for us. Many of our members will be out this weekend looking for some bass.
Good fishing to all.
DZ

[ThrowingTimber]

Does anyone have all the details for this? IE. weigh ins, boundries, cutoff etc. I checked the risaa.org site and it just says to contact Bob M. Any info would be appreciated. And good luck everyone

[Swimmer]

John,
Sounds like thier a tad afraid of all the talent here.......If they have a problem with meetings and such I think the blooberry beer get togethers cover meetings, or plugs fest, or our in-house tourneys, or

[cheferson]

Sucks

[DZ]

Like Seawolf said - I think most of the board members here also belong to area fishing clubs. I know our club(Newport) has quite a few, besides myself, there is Tattoo, Habs, John R, Roseneath, Big Ed, Pt Jude Joe, RIRockhound, some of the SWE staff, Iron Mike and probably a few I missed.
I'll try and link the rules and regs of the tourney.

[spence]

Too bad, MS has impacted my family in a tremendous way...I was looking forward to this.

I think I'll fish anyway

-spence

[The Dad Fisherman]

I would think that in a tournament like this the bottom line would be get as many people to fish as possible. That way you raise as much money as possible for the Charity its for. excluding people just takes money away from your original goal.

and, also, couldn't you use tournaments like this to foster interest in Clubs to grow your membership. People show up, meet people, talk and get interested in an organization and end up joining.

Its seems like a win-win to me...just don't get why you would exclude anybody.

[Iwannakeeper]

The only reasonably explaination for not wanting a club to participate is fear.

All others fear the fishing power of striped-bass.com!!

[zacs]

bummer. I don't belong to any clubs.

I will fish anyways, and have my own tournament, and award myself prizes in all categories. And afterwards have an awards ceremony and get all plastered by myself and go pass out in my bushes.

WOOOHOOO

[spence]

I reward myself before my personal tourney, this year first prize was a new surf top

-spence

[reelecstasy]

Originally Posted by spence

I reward myself before my personal tourney, this year first prize was a new surf top

-spence

LOL, me too on Friday..the new Simms surf top

[JohnR]

Club Tourneys can be funny but the MDA, which this one is modeled after is a no sheet awesome bragiing rights tourney, It really does more to fish and less on the fund raising then perhaps it could. The MDA Tourney last year raised 1200-1300 or something dollars if I remember right among all the clubs that particpated. I think much of the money raised was by people buying the raffle tickets. I know I donated a half dozen real nice plugs for the raffle table and a couple clubs donated things and a couple shops donated a reel. Again, went to a good cause.

I really would have liked to get us into the RISAA tourney but we were never invited (we have been invited to other regional tourneys, officially and unofficially) but I missed the dealine. I looked several times on their site but their were no details. Was not a problem when they wanted to push the show, plenty of links there. Anyway....

Well, in a nutshell, I received an e-mail which I will apply to tonight or tomorrow about whether or not we qualify as a "club"

Perhaps we will create a "club", elect Clammer as President, have an E-Board, charge $1 annual dues, and have out meetings at Hooters on Tuesday nights once a month in the off season

Thanks and good luck!

John

[likwid]

New England Surf Fishermans Association.

[reelecstasy]

F.U. -Fisherman Unlimited

[ThrowingTimber]

striped-bass.org

[SeaWolf]

john, again, this is not so much an sb.com issue as it is a tournament chairman issue. i will give sb.com credit as they have several members that keep involved and advise others here about issues. some even are on advisor panels, which is great. however, being that this and the fall mda club challenge are just that, club challenges. take sb.com out of the equation for a minute. you are the tourney chair or weighmaster at a shop. someone comes in w/ a fish to weigh in for a club. they ask the member, "who are you fishing for?" they say sb.com. great, now prove to me you are a member? one of the key parts that is hardly checked is that people are up to date/in good standing members of their particular club. it's easy when you are a familiar face at a shop you weigh in at, but what if you are not and are fishing this tournament? how do i know you are part of that club? you don't have membership cards. what's to keep the same person from later weighing in a different fish for a different club? how will i know? i personally am not involved with the rules for the risaa club challenge. that is risaa and bob mueller. i am giving my viewpoints from a tournament's chair position, which i am for other clubs.

ok, next issue. you invite sb.com into the tournament. what's to say website x cannot enter it? how about website w's ri forum if they want to enter it and their parent website is already entered into it? how about if i want a group of my friend's that all happen to fish rods i built for them want to enter. are all these still clubs? why can't they be? they paid the fees to enter. what if i want to fish for myself as a club. can i if i pay the entrance fee? do you see what and where this is going? originally, once a club signed up, all members of that club are eligibile to fish. there was no sign up. but, some are members of several clubs. how do you keep track of what club they fish for or if they enter fish for different clubs? so, they started to keep track of names of participants for that club so people couldn't fish for 2 or more clubs during the tournament.

now, as far as the majority of the participating clubs entered into the fall mda tournament not being true clubs, i argue that point. i'll give you a couple, one being sb. in more recent years this has been addressed.

ok, money. the entrace fee for the tournament and raffle prizes are all donated towards the charity. also, if people or clubs wish to give extra, they can make that donation as well. sure, it's all for a good cause, but it is also a club challenge.

now, off the serious note. fear? this has nothing to do w/ fear of sb.com. my reasons were said above, but go back and do some searches and see how many people said the same things about fear as some are saying here. then, go check the people that actually weighed fish for sb during those year. yes, sb won it one year, but i believe only 3-5 people even weighed fish! it's easy to talk behind the keyboard, but few have been able to step up to the plate and back it up.

now, onto the whole club issue. i'd be curious to see how many of the members here that want to fish for sb.com are actually members of another club. so, why would you not fish for that club? why sb.com? some clubs are in need of new blood and members, fresh with ideas and enthusiasm. why not get involved? when clubs start dying, as some have or are showing trends in that way, how are lobbyist going to use rec groups for their backing? does website x.com mean or hold any value to someone like asmfc? is sb.com affiliated with any other organizations? i said this last time john, and i'll say it again, sb.com could be a very important and vital voice in support of fisheries and other issues, but they way i see it right now, it's just a message forum. again, i stress, try and look at this as someone would who is outside of sb.com. then, ask the same questions.

[BasicPatrick]

Here we go again so I will jump in on this one. I will qualify by saying that I have been chair or on a committee of at least 4 different types of club/team/organization tournaments and have had this conversation more than five times. Here is my opinion.

The tournament committee must set the rules before the tournament is announced and in those rules need to be some sort of definition/qualification defining what makes up a "club". Both MDA and RISAA have bee very poor in this aspect with both of these tournaments.

As far as how you determine what is a "club", I see this as easy. A "legitimate" club is required by LAW to be registered both with the IRS and with a regulatory agency of their particular state. In MA it is the Office of the Attornety General. Hence forth, the easiest way to define a "club" is to require the confirmation/registration letters from both the State & Feds to be part of the application. The problem this brings up is that very very few clubs are truely legit. I suspect that some of the smaller clubs in RI have not filed in years. I know that this is the case here in MA. This is truely the best way to be covered by your insurance company and to avoid controversy with regard to who is and is not a club.

My second favorite way to define "club" is any and I meany any group of fishers that says they are a club and pays into the tournament. Now this is truly an open tournament that will maximize revenue for the charity. This is why it is my second choice.

Any other set of criteria will fall in between and is open to a lot of controversy because many clubs operate in many different ways.

As far as as clubs I belong to and who I am fishing for there is large controversy around this also. I belong to 4 "clubs" entered in this weekends MS tournament and can choose to weigh fish for either. MDA closed this loophole last year by making clubs submit names of participants ahead of time. this was a very smart rule and made anglers choose what club they are fishing for prior to the tournament.

Bottom line is that thiese questions should have been adressed prior to the announcement of the tournament and creating rules that exclude anglers after the fact is just pleain wrong.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by SeaWolf

john, again, this is not so much an sb.com issue as it is a tournament chairman issue. i will give sb.com credit as they have several members that keep involved and advise others here about issues. some even are on advisor panels, which is great. however, being that this and the fall mda club challenge are just that, club challenges. take sb.com out of the equation for a minute. you are the tourney chair or weighmaster at a shop. someone comes in w/ a fish to weigh in for a club. they ask the member, "who are you fishing for?" they say sb.com. great, now prove to me you are a member? one of the key parts that is hardly checked is that people are up to date/in good standing members of their particular club. it's easy when you are a familiar face at a shop you weigh in at, but what if you are not and are fishing this tournament? how do i know you are part of that club? you don't have membership cards. what's to keep the same person from later weighing in a different fish for a different club? how will i know? i personally am not involved with the rules for the risaa club challenge. that is risaa and bob mueller. i am giving my viewpoints from a tournament's chair position, which i am for other clubs.

Two things: First - a great solution was implemented at the last MDA, having a list of who would be fishing for what club - this took care of exactly what you mentioned plus it made certain that those that belong to multiple participating clubs - and there were many - could not chose depending on which way the wind was blowing or which club needed a little boost. Same with weighing for multiple fish. Now all fish weighed in really should have the tail cut in a specific way (without impacting length) to prevent multiple times being entered. Some tournaments do this and it is a good policy. Also, how many people carry their club membership cards with them? 50% maybe? When a fish is entered in a club tourney, it is easy to check membership standing - this completely fails at the intra-club level, short of the roster. So the rosters work on several levels. Based on the current system, I suppose I could weigh in a fish for RISAA even though I am not a member (I have not gotten around to join yet but the wife so no more fishing commitments )

ok, next issue. you invite sb.com into the tournament. what's to say website x cannot enter it? how about website w's ri forum if they want to enter it and their parent website is already entered into it? how about if i want a group of my friend's that all happen to fish rods i built for them want to enter. are all these still clubs? why can't they be? they paid the fees to enter. what if i want to fish for myself as a club. can i if i pay the entrance fee? do you see what and where this is going? originally, once a club signed up, all members of that club are eligibile to fish. there was no sign up. but, some are members of several clubs. how do you keep track of what club they fish for or if they enter fish for different clubs? so, they started to keep track of names of participants for that club so people couldn't fish for 2 or more clubs during the tournament.

You are now dividing one entity into several. Some Tourneys have fixed group size (Tri State) so a club splits teams into A, B, C, etc. This creates some competition within clubs too. As for a bunch of friends getting together? That's far more loosely based than say S-B, which is a defined entity, like a club. We're defined as in we have a place we meet - online, members are registered, rosters can be defined in advance... I have not given much thought about a manufacture putting a team together, say like Team VS.

now, as far as the majority of the participating clubs entered into the fall mda tournament not being true clubs, i argue that point. i'll give you a couple, one being sb. in more recent years this has been addressed.

I don't want to put gas on a flame but several of the MDA teams, even historically competing teams, are not "legal" clubs so that is a wash. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that a club needs legal status but I am saying that several of your tightly defined "clubs" do not pass legal muster. No more than SB would, no less.

ok, money. the entrace fee for the tournament and raffle prizes are all donated towards the charity. also, if people or clubs wish to give extra, they can make that donation as well. sure, it's all for a good cause, but it is also a club challenge.

- yep, all for a good cause

now, off the serious note. fear? this has nothing to do w/ fear of sb.com. my reasons were said above, but go back and do some searches and see how many people said the same things about fear as some are saying here. then, go check the people that actually weighed fish for sb during those year. yes, sb won it one year, but i believe only 3-5 people even weighed fish! it's easy to talk behind the keyboard, but few have been able to step up to the plate and back it up.

I don't think "fear" is a real reason either. Perhaps with some thinking we'd bring down 100 people, which is obviously has not been the case. We've typically had somewhere between 6 and a baker's dozen fish a tourney, not the 20-40+ members that teams like RIMS et al have entered in the past. Yeh, that year SB won it, 3-4 guys whacked the daylights out of the fish, Hab's, Tattoo, Krispy, and I (sadly) don't recall if there was one other, that put SB over the top. Then guys from WS or RIMS, forgot which but I think RIMS, got all bent out of shape that they lost because those fish were not entered for that team. How many guys did RIMS and Weekapaug have that year? Or the year after when RISAA had some huge number of anglers fishing the tourney?

now, onto the whole club issue. i'd be curious to see how many of the members here that want to fish for sb.com are actually members of another club. so, why would you not fish for that club? why sb.com? some clubs are in need of new blood and members, fresh with ideas and enthusiasm. why not get involved? when clubs start dying, as some have or are showing trends in that way, how are lobbyist going to use rec groups for their backing? does website x.com mean or hold any value to someone like asmfc? is sb.com affiliated with any other organizations? i said this last time john, and i'll say it again, sb.com could be a very important and vital voice in support of fisheries and other issues, but they way i see it right now, it's just a message forum. again, i stress, try and look at this as someone would who is outside of sb.com. then, ask the same questions.

I disagree that we are just a "message forum". Yes, that’s what we revolve around more or less, but we have become a community, and in many ways more so than some clubs. You mention the ones that have failed over the years, well, many have been brought down by squabbles, hands in the cookie jar, and lack of fresh blood, far too narrow of focus, or plain unwillingness to change with the times.



I think we do have some pull on fisheries issues. Not the pull of a MSBA or RISAA but some pull and some influence when muscles are flexed and calls made. I know we are not organized as efficiently as we could be on this. Or as political as we could be. I do all I can and do not have time to do more. Could SB move that way more in the future? Perhaps. But that would entail involvement from others stepping up to the plate to do this. I can't do anymore.



The sad fact is that most clubs generate so few people to attack a subject where it counts in fisheries meetings. RISAA and MSBA being probably the most vocal in RI & Mass, send the most people to hearings and public events but it is still painfully too few doing it and usually the same few (though RISAA impresses me by how broad their influence is on various committees and such). How many clubs don't send anyone? Or don't sit on any committees? Would more than half be a fair number?



Well, not to beat a dead horse , again but you and I are obviously still on opposite sides of the fence on this subject. I can see and even appreciate some of your points. But you seem to minimize what SB is in some areas and maximize what clubs are in other areas. The way I look at it, we define a lot of things of a "club"; camaraderie, education, responsibility, action, community, yet place it in an easy to access format with fewer limitations than some traditional clubs. We are perhaps an extension of the club philosophy in mission without some of the baggage that sometimes impedes regular clubs, at least those that fail. So I feel that in many cases we do define the "spirit" of a club better than many out there now do.



Are we the best club out there? No. Are we the best community (you say message board)? Maybe, maybe not. Some think so and others think not. But do we grab the spirit of a club that is pretty open to all walks? Yeh, I think we do....