A Different Point of View

[nightfighter]

I ran into my friend Ray today and our conversation had me thinking much of the day. Ray is a commercial lobsterman/fisherman and one of the more insightful and educated people I know. (I tell him he's an oxymoron)
His view on the striped bass population is that there are as many now as back in the day, but they're killing his livelihood as they prey on lobsters. This is from a ban on commercial netting of SB, AND the collapse of their food sources. He sees large often but noted that they are not fat as in the day. The fact that dogfish are protected drives him, and the tuna fishermen nuts. There are days that most of us would question that dogfish are endangered, I'm sure. He thinks anyone would be hard pressed to find any eels in the Danvers River, once a great source in this neck of the woods. His books reflect that in the past three to four years his lobster catch has fallen off the map. Where it used to be good from June to Dec, it has been dead until October. And when do the bass leave our area?
He said the state has drawn a line from the Cape to Maine, and the area inside, area 15 I think he said, was coming under pressure for less traps and more fishing regs. A friend of his is in the seafood suppy biz with Stavis, and stated that to meet restaurant demand 95% of his SB sold were farm raised. So was our comm. SB season just two weeks long this year? And he went on about the restriction on cod fishing until June (?) which I must have missed.
Am I/we missing something here. Has the ecological cocktail been totally screwed up? What is the true state of the SB population? Should we be taking/killing our daily limit to help the state of the population? If their normal food sources disappear, they will forage for what, lobster? Not unlike the deer hunting, is it? You reduce a herd for the long term betterment. It's not just SB, but eel, herring, dogfish, etc.
I mentioned how many of us practice catch and release. He said he would make me up a shirt with "Catch and Filet"
He brought up valid points and I wanted to share...
Ross

[PNG]

I concure with you "oxymoronic" friend and will do him one better, in another thread it was asked essentially how where to bag a cow. My response would be think more than 3 miles & use live bait say cod whiting whatever. For what its worth I would much rather have seal poop cod than a fall bass.

[Clogston29]

To me, the problem is over harvest of baitfish (menhaden, herring, mackeral, whiting, etc.) that is the problem, not the under harvest of bass. We've completely screwed up to ocean ecosystem and that is going to have consequences and everyone sees those consequences from their own point of vier. Lobsterman see too many bass eating lobsters. Striperman see bass that aren't as big/fat as they used to be. And on and on. Almost every bass that I've kept over the past few years has had nothing but crabs or lobster in their stomachs, most have nothing at all.

[Pete_G]

Originally Posted by Clogston29

To me, the problem is over harvest of baitfish (menhaden, herring, mackeral, whiting, etc.) that is the problem, not the under harvest of bass. We've completely screwed up to ocean ecosystem and that is going to have consequences and everyone sees those consequences from their own point of vier. Lobsterman see too many bass eating lobsters. Striperman see bass that aren't as big/fat as they used to be. And on and on. Almost every bass that I've kept over the past few years has had nothing but crabs or lobster in their stomachs, most have nothing at all.

This is my view on it as well. Till the ecosystem overall is managed, it's never going to be balanced.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Clogston29

To me, the problem is over harvest of baitfish (menhaden, herring, mackeral, whiting, etc.) that is the problem, not the under harvest of bass. We've completely screwed up to ocean ecosystem and that is going to have consequences and everyone sees those consequences from their own point of vier. Lobsterman see too many bass eating lobsters. Striperman see bass that aren't as big/fat as they used to be. And on and on. Almost every bass that I've kept over the past few years has had nothing but crabs or lobster in their stomachs, most have nothing at all.

Bingo.....

[Flaptail]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Bingo.....

Double bingo.

[RIROCKHOUND]

And _INGO was his name-o

Lets hope ecosystem management is in the future... unfortunetly I see lots of talk, and not much implimentation

[eelman]

You cant blame the lobsterman for being upset, We had this discussion at a recent RISAA meeting. In the years I have fished I would say 90% of the bass I have gutted all have either lobsters or crabs in there gut. However many fisherman mis-identify lobster at times especially if they are a little decomposed. Not alot but enough to take notice, what the bass acually have in there gut is Manta Shrimp and, they can be a dead ringer for lobster especially in the decomposed stage.

Mant shrimp live in the muddy bottom and bass will root for them with there chins and absolutly love to eat the things!

However I agree that the ecosystem is totally screwd up...bass cant eat whats not there

[nightfighter]

So our response as a group should be....? How can we as sportsmen put our support around a solution? A true overall solution. What groups do we need to work with to make an impact? And we must identify who the opposition will be. We as a group could have some impact I would think, especially if we teamed up with others. Zealots need not apply.
Maybe we could start with folks like TimW as his work on the eel problem is obviously a piece of the puzzle.

[Swimmer]

The total management concept such as allready has been seconded, thirded, and fourth has to be the only way to go. To try and manage one species or a third of the species at one time is micromanaging for the short haul. Managing the fishery has to envelope the entire ocean.

I just got through reading a book about lobsters and you wouldn't believe the amount of research and work that goes into sustaining the lobster fishery. From locating and protecting spawning areas, nursery areas, and cobble areas where after molting into the first hard shell they hide. It is a fishery where everyone joined hands in Maine to protect a tremendous resource. The biggest threat to the lobster(outside of manmade threats) is changing weather patterns, such as; colder winters, and wind direction fluctuation that blows the floating lobster larve into different areas where thier isn't sufficient food or hiding places for them when they sink. Much of this research surrounded work done at Woods Hole by a swedish fellow. My point is not to hijack this post but to tell of the extensive research in regard to lobsters, and that the entire fisheries should be manage and saved the same way.

[Swimmer]

In regard to the Maine lobster fishery and those in charge........with the exception of the government overseers, all research was accepted by the scienctists and lay persons for the most part as being valid. That included one lobstermans wife who talked her husband and other lobstermen into throughing a wood claw plug into a can everytime they opened a trap and found a female lobster in order to get a somewhat valid female lobster population in certain areas. The government kept saying the female lobster population was depleted and she proved it wasn't. The government also said there weren't enough V-notched lobsters, females that are automatically thrown back as breeders, and the lobstermen proved them wrong again.

My further point here again is that our fishery in Massachusetts and south of here is not supported by our opinon because it is considered lacking in scientific meaning. The government says we are not scientists. I say we are the most important link in the chain. If we could convince the scientists that we do hold important information and they let us join the management process as opposed to shooing us away we may have to perform certain tasks for them, such as recording total catch, and how were keepers and how many were not. It is something to consider.

[libassboy]

Almost every bass that I've kept over the past few years has had nothing but crabs or lobster in their stomachs, most have nothing at all.

Very true, even in October this year I noticed this, usually Bass In Oct would be stuffed with bait...not scrounging around for crabs.
I thnk we are going to see more and more Bass staying offshore, or going to join those offshore schools, theres no food for them inshore anymore.

[DZ]

While bass may be a "contributing factor" in the lobster fishery they certainly are not the "cause" of the problem. The lobster fishery has a lot more issues involved with it now than predatation by striped bass.
For an example: striped bass were plentiful at other times (1960s), and so were lobsters.

Shell disease, over fishing, degradation of environment, and a more focused effort to catch them are more likely contributing factors. Just think, as more finfish commercial fishermen are closed out of those fisheries they turn to lobstering, more effort means less and less for everyone else. As far as I know only the Maine Lobster fishery is doing well but I hear that the shell disease creeps further north each year.

In another words - its very easy to try and pin the decline on one factor - but shortsighted.

DZ

[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by Clogston29

To me, the problem is over harvest of baitfish (menhaden, herring, mackeral, whiting, etc.) that is the problem, not the under harvest of bass. We've completely screwed up to ocean ecosystem and that is going to have consequences and everyone sees those consequences from their own point of vier. Lobsterman see too many bass eating lobsters. Striperman see bass that aren't as big/fat as they used to be. And on and on. Almost every bass that I've kept over the past few years has had nothing but crabs or lobster in their stomachs, most have nothing at all.

and the numbers of seals on the cape that eat all the bait are a good part of the problem of not having enough bait for bass and blues. I have not caught a fat bass ever in the last decade.

[Rockport24]

I think the the general consensus here is that there is not a shortage of stripers, just a shortage of LARGE stripers. So that has to point to the fact that something is seriously wrong with their forage base. And as somebody mentioned, this could drive them offshore which is potentially really bad for us as surfcasters.

[LeCounts1099]

Well... there are those who believe (like lil ol' me), that the lack of big bait inshore at all of the hallowed Striper surf turf over recent years has already been pushing the bigger Bass to off- beach hunting grounds! Don't know about you: but over the last five years I'm seeing less bigger & fatter Bass, not more!-- contrary to optimistic expectations of "experts" based upon good relevant YOY Indexes. But just ask those off-shore draggers & commercials how common 40's & 50's & 60's Stripers are in their by- catch of Herring, Mackeral, Cod or whatever! Esp. on my beloved Cape, where the arrival of Seal- gangs more intimidating than an invading Army has for 3+ years now succeeded in pushing the most of the "big" bait (here large Sand Eels & Herring mostly) well off of the once- productive beaches of the Backside. Guess who's found our big fish & Herring & Sand Eels? -- the guys dragging nets daily in 80- 120 feet, depending upon season. Between Seals & Bass & other predators, no doubt the smaller schools of large bait left out there have sought deeper/ off-shore places to hide (and, for every Lobster & shelfish eaten by a Bass... I'll bet 100+ are devoured by Dogfish! Managing Dogfish properly, is as big an issue in "large" bait Mgt., as any! When will "they" admit the ocean is paved with their "protected" Dogfish!-- that foreign trawlers would gladly take off our hands for their Fish & Chips if we only let them! (Dogfish are the ONLY case where I'm "for" letting foreign ships at our fish stocks!)

So: that's why our surf- caught Stripers have only Crabs & runt Lobsters, etc., in their bellies: they made the "mistake" of looking inshore/ shallow for food-- lucky for us Surfcasters! But I believe 95% of the bigger Bass now associate big bait with deeper/ open water, from Cape May to Race Point at least! (Haven't fished beyond myself yet). Too bad for us surf nuts: we need Bunker (Pogies), Herring, Eels/ Sand Eels, Squid & Mackeral in our casting range to attract the fat/ well- fed Cows we seek! Anyone see much of these in the Surf last season? Not I!! (Not from Sandy Hook, to PJ RI, my range last year anyway). Some peanut Pogys in late- season, and a 10 day Spring Squid run aside-- and yes, 10 years ago Mackeral were commonly caught from surf & piers in May where I'm from!

SO... Let the Pogys, Herring, Eels, & Mackeral alone & free of commercial netting for a few years-- and while we're at it, the Stripers too! (yes, Gamefish now!! ) Lay off the inshore Alewife- type Herring runs, & Eels too for a few (everybody!) Crack down harder on the underground/ unmonitored sale of Bass (illegal pinhooking, netting, & even Recs. selling to restaurants directly w/o license, etc.), & those that keep shorts obviously! Curtail the dogfish explosion & way-too-abundant Seals SOMEHOW ... and THEN watch the (large) bait population explode to the point where they're found everywhere, shallow & deep like in years ago-- & just watch the results! All Bass are then fatter... & more prosperous, & thus numerous too!... and Surfcasters will THEN claim back their fair- share of 40's & 50's from the off- shore draggers "by- catch!"... & to a lesser extent (by far!) the deep- water Recs./ Charters/ trollers! Simple to me!! -- now, HOW do we do all of this??

[NEXT2NUN]

http://www.savethefish.org/action_it..._bass_EAN2.htm Take a minute and sent the gov an Email. You might make a difference.

[basswipe]

Originally Posted by NEXT2NUN

http://www.savethefish.org/action_it..._bass_EAN2.htm Take a minute and sent the gov an Email. You might make a difference.