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Old 09-09-2013, 08:31 PM   #1
Saltheart
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Syria , the Presidents biggest embarrasment of all

This Syria thing is turning ridiculous and IMO has become the biggest embarrassment of the Obama Presidency and worst for any President since Bill got caught with his zipper down (which despite being embarrassing did the country little harm) .

He stupidly draws a line in the sand , backs down from that by dumping his mess on congress. When its apparent he will lose the vote in the house and barely get support from his own parties Senate , he grasps at straws about this idea of a UN or worse , Russian policed Chem warfare stockpile. Talk about him blinking , he has turned tail and run away.

I think the world views us as the biggest bunch of political fools around now. To me this huge show of weakness , brought on by the loose lips of a zero foreign policy experience President is going to encourage further action against us and our allies.

This is the ultimate failure of his Presidency and that's saying a mouth full after all the other stuff that has happened. I hope he locks himself in a closet for the next few years. "No President" , would be better than this guy stumbling along in the darkness.

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Old 09-09-2013, 08:52 PM   #2
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Or...it could be some brilliant political maneuvering in a nearly impossible situation with significant consequences.

If Obama can negotiate via Russia a WMD disarmament without force that would be huge. It also draws a very clear line for future action that even UN veto darlings won't be able to contain.

Hell, it has the potential to stall the entire civil war and the rise of radicalism underway.

I remember just after 9/11 thanking the expert foreign policy team Bush had in place...and look what happened then.

Perhaps these people are a hell of a lot smarter than you're giving them credit for.

-spence
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Old 09-09-2013, 09:12 PM   #3
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And here I thought LSD had gone out of fashion.

Now what were you saying about a tooth fairy?

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Old 09-10-2013, 03:55 AM   #4
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best headline in recent days

" to punish Syria Mr. President, send in your economic team, not missiles "


JUGDGE "Mr Spence, you are charged with running a red light, hitting a pedestrian and driving through the front of a strip mall store, how do you plead?"

SPENCE "I plead brilliant Your Honor, the car that had to come to a screeching halt at the intersection was going to be in a fatal accident a mile down the road so I save the lives of all on board, the dead pedestrian's family is going to get a tidy settlement from my insurance company and the store was empty and needed a makeover anyway, I just helped the owner make the decision, he should thank me.....Perhaps I'm a hell of a lot better driver than you're giving me credit for."
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Old 09-10-2013, 04:43 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
Or...it could be some brilliant political maneuvering in a nearly impossible situation with significant consequences.

If Obama can negotiate via Russia a WMD disarmament without force that would be huge. It also draws a very clear line for future action that even UN veto darlings won't be able to contain.

Hell, it has the potential to stall the entire civil war and the rise of radicalism underway.

I remember just after 9/11 thanking the expert foreign policy team Bush had in place...and look what happened then.

Perhaps these people are a hell of a lot smarter than you're giving them credit for.

-spence
Stop playing me for stupid. You are dreaming... I just wish you were a paid political spinmeister. It pains me to think you really believe some of the crap I've seen you post. We are just polar opposites.
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Old 09-10-2013, 06:01 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
Or...it could be some brilliant political maneuvering in a nearly impossible situation with significant consequences.

If Obama can negotiate via Russia a WMD disarmament without force that would be huge. It also draws a very clear line for future action that even UN veto darlings won't be able to contain.

Hell, it has the potential to stall the entire civil war and the rise of radicalism underway.

I remember just after 9/11 thanking the expert foreign policy team Bush had in place...and look what happened then.

Perhaps these people are a hell of a lot smarter than you're giving them credit for.

-spence
Wow. Here is Spence's opus. Wow. Whew!
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Old 09-10-2013, 06:01 AM   #7
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Forget bombing Syria, our troops should bomb DC and we can start over !
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Old 09-10-2013, 07:12 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spence View Post
Or...it could be some brilliant political maneuvering in a nearly impossible situation with significant consequences.

If Obama can negotiate via Russia a WMD disarmament without force that would be huge. It also draws a very clear line for future action that even UN veto darlings won't be able to contain.

Hell, it has the potential to stall the entire civil war and the rise of radicalism underway.

I remember just after 9/11 thanking the expert foreign policy team Bush had in place...and look what happened then.

Perhaps these people are a hell of a lot smarter than you're giving them credit for.

-spence
First off this idea started with a slip up by Kerry. Putin played it brilliantly . Think for a moment Spence.
In order to negotiate a deal Assad has to be in charge. Exactly what Obama did not want .
You are going to retrieve chemical weapons from a nation in civil war?? It will take years if it can happen with any success at all.
By negotiating this deal Putin now looks like the world's leader.
Putin has handed Obama a face saving out and the self serving commander and chief will run with it .
Nothing accomplished , just a step in the wrong direction. His legacy !!!
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Old 09-10-2013, 07:18 AM   #9
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Shocking news
Syria has excepted Russia's proposal . It would be comical if not for the embarrassment and danger involved .
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Old 09-10-2013, 07:23 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by buckman View Post
First off this idea started with a slip up by Kerry. Putin played it brilliantly . Think for a moment Spence.
In order to negotiate a deal Assad has to be in charge. Exactly what Obama did not want .
You are going to retrieve chemical weapons from a nation in civil war?? It will take years if it can happen with any success at all.
By negotiating this deal Putin now looks like the world's leader.
Putin has handed Obama a face saving out and the self serving commander and chief will run with it .
Nothing accomplished , just a step in the wrong direction. His legacy !!!
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I don't think Kerry's statement was a slip up at all. Obama's in a difficult situation and this was an even better option. For all we know Obama and Putin could have set the whole thing up last week. The timing of the three statements sounded nearly staged.

Now, instead of military strikes you have the potential for the WMD to simply be taken off the table...now the rebels won't have access to them either.

Assad's control is still pretty centralized. I don't think removing weapons will be an issue as they don't appear to have to pass through rebel territory.

-spence
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Old 09-10-2013, 07:50 AM   #11
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I'm convinced this whole thing is staged as well. Lets give all these alqueda fighters a place to go fight and die.... Sounds almost too good to be true.
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Old 09-10-2013, 08:05 AM   #12
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First off this idea started with a slip up by Kerry. Putin played it brilliantly .
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That's exactly what happened. Kerry opened his big fat mouth, even his own spokesperson claimed that it wasn't a real offer. Putin absolutely played it brilliantly, he played Obama's team like a Stradivarious deluxe. Putin looks like an absolute genius, Obama looks like the clueless unic that he is.

Spence, here's what you and your ilk haven't figured out yet. There is a huge difference between actually doing things in the world, versus talking about doing things in an Ivy League faculty room. What sounds brilliant in the faculty room at Harvard, doesn't always work in the real world.
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Old 09-10-2013, 08:09 AM   #13
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Putin has handed Obama a face saving out and the self serving commander and chief will run with it .
Nothing accomplished , just a step in the wrong direction. His legacy !!!
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Also exactly correct. Putin offers Obama an out that will (1) save Obama the humiliation of having Congress collectively tell him to 'get lost', and (2) leaves Putin's puppets in Syria and Iran happy and still in place, right where Putin wants them.

We're geting absolutely steamrolled by Russia on this one. Unless it plays out very differently than the direction it's currently heading.

Carter version 2.0
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Old 09-10-2013, 08:14 AM   #14
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I don't think Kerry's statement was a slip up at all. Obama's in a difficult situation and this was an even better option. For all we know Obama and Putin could have set the whole thing up last week. The timing of the three statements sounded nearly staged.

Now, instead of military strikes you have the potential for the WMD to simply be taken off the table...now the rebels won't have access to them either.

Assad's control is still pretty centralized. I don't think removing weapons will be an issue as they don't appear to have to pass through rebel territory.

-spence
"I don't think Kerry's statement was a slip up at all"

You don't? Well, Kerry's spokeswoman said it wasn't a real offer. Here is what she said...

“Secretary Kerry was making a rhetorical argument about the impossibility of Assad turning over chemical weapons he has denied he used. This brutal dictator with a history of playing fast and loose with the facts cannot be trusted to turn over chemical weapons"

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013...nty-of-strike/

Spence, take off your tin-foil hat for a change.
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Old 09-10-2013, 08:37 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
"I don't think Kerry's statement was a slip up at all"

You don't? Well, Kerry's spokeswoman said it wasn't a real offer. Here is what she said...

“Secretary Kerry was making a rhetorical argument about the impossibility of Assad turning over chemical weapons he has denied he used. This brutal dictator with a history of playing fast and loose with the facts cannot be trusted to turn over chemical weapons"

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013...nty-of-strike/

Spence, take off your tin-foil hat for a change.
Exactly Jim.
And why wouldn't Kerry say he was working on it ...what would the harm be of that ? Fools
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Old 09-10-2013, 08:40 AM   #16
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Now, instead of military strikes you have the potential for the WMD to simply be taken off the table...

-spence
You are too cute Spence. My nieces say cute things all the time that have a tinge more credibility
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Old 09-10-2013, 09:53 AM   #17
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You guys are funny.

Obama was never going to remove Assad by force, and with the increasing radicalization of the rebels arming them is becoming less desirable day by day.

This action takes the WMD off the table so nobody can use it.

The Iranian leadership has shown slight signs of moderation, a diplomatic outcome in Syria helps here as well for future nuclear negotiations.

Why wouldn't Kerry say he was working on it? Are you serious?

Here's a better question for you. Can you explain why Russia would do an about face from the position there was no evidence the Govt led the attack to suddenly demanding Assad give everything up?

-spence
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Old 09-10-2013, 10:33 AM   #18
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Here's a better question for you. Can you explain why Russia would do an about face from the position there was no evidence the Govt led the attack to suddenly demanding Assad give everything up?

-spence
From Putin's perspective, here are 2 possible outcomes.

(1) we remove or kill Assad, who is a Putin ally.
(2) Assad simply agrees to give up his chemical weapons, and everybody agrees to forget about what happened. In this case, Assad stays right where he is.

Why wouldn't Putin jump at the chance for option #2? There is no better outcome for Putin.

So much for Obama's red line nonsense. We look like idiots.
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Old 09-10-2013, 10:34 AM   #19
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You guys are funny.

Obama was never going to remove Assad by force, and with the increasing radicalization of the rebels arming them is becoming less desirable day by day.

This action takes the WMD off the table so nobody can use it.

The Iranian leadership has shown slight signs of moderation, a diplomatic outcome in Syria helps here as well for future nuclear negotiations.

Why wouldn't Kerry say he was working on it? Are you serious?

Here's a better question for you. Can you explain why Russia would do an about face from the position there was no evidence the Govt led the attack to suddenly demanding Assad give everything up?

-spence
France came out today in favor of an agreement as
Put fourth by Russia but then stated Assad still had to go.
A shift in the balance has always been Obamas stance also. Try as you might to rewrite history days after its recorded . So you agree,that after killing thousands with chemical weapons,the punishment shall be an agreement that assures Assad stay in power??? Great !!!
Explain to me how this " takes weapons off the table so nobody can use them"?? Do you have a magic WMD wand or something?
I think Jim answered your last question quite well. Putin and Assad win! America loses.
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Old 09-10-2013, 10:42 AM   #20
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Quote:
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Or...it could be some brilliant political maneuvering in a nearly impossible situation with significant consequences.



Perhaps these people are a hell of a lot smarter than you're giving them credit for.

-spence
Spence, I luv ya man, but for me to believe what you wrote, I would have to believe in the
Tooth Fairy too.
I will ask you again, even though I wouldn't expect an answer, but what would you
be saying about Bush under the same circumstances???

BTW- What would your posts be without words like Perhaps, or it could be.

" Choose Life "
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:02 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
From Putin's perspective, here are 2 possible outcomes.

(1) we remove or kill Assad, who is a Putin ally.
(2) Assad simply agrees to give up his chemical weapons, and everybody agrees to forget about what happened. In this case, Assad stays right where he is.

Why wouldn't Putin jump at the chance for option #2? There is no better outcome for Putin.

So much for Obama's red line nonsense. We look like idiots.
In addition, Putin takes over the good guy roll.

It was a win,win proposal for Putin. He comes out as the new leader of the world,
makes the US look like war mongers, protects his ally Assad, and protects his
military base in Syria.
The "red line" talk and the "very small limited attack" plan without the support of our country or the rest of the world made it easy for Putin.

" Choose Life "
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:43 AM   #22
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IMHO.. this whole "line in the sand" crap from Our "President" was to get the attention away from the latest round of White house "spy gate"... another notch on his legacy belt.

A good run is better than a bad stand!
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Old 09-10-2013, 12:15 PM   #23
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Here is what John Kerry himself, said of his offhand comment about Assad simply turning over his chemical weapons...

"He could turn over every single bit of his chemical weapons to the international community in the next week, but he isn't about to do it, and it can't be done, obviously."

The link...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...pons-proposal/

First he says "it can't be done, obviously". Now we're supposed to believe that what he said obviously cannot be done, is now in the world's best interest?

Watching this administration is like watching Peter Sellers portray Inspector Cluseou in the old 'Pink Panther' movies...
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Old 09-10-2013, 12:17 PM   #24
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QUOTE=Rockfish9;1013009]IMHO.. this whole "line in the sand" crap from Our "President" was to get the attention away from the latest round of White house "spy gate"... another notch on his legacy belt.[/QUOTE]
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Old 09-10-2013, 12:48 PM   #25
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Spence, I luv ya man, but for me to believe what you wrote, I would have to believe in the
Tooth Fairy too.
I will ask you again, even though I wouldn't expect an answer, but what would you
be saying about Bush under the same circumstances???

BTW- What would your posts be without words like Perhaps, or it could be.
Very different circumstances. I supported the initial Iraq war justification by the way.

And people please, Obama didn't draw the red line to distract from the Snowden affair. Letting a WMD attack go post 9/11 is an extremely dangerous precedent.

-spence

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Old 09-10-2013, 01:09 PM   #26
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Very different circumstances. I supported the Iraq war initially by the way.

-spence
It is different.

I can't decide where I stand on the issue of mi;litary action here. So it's not Obama's position that I necessarily object to, it's the way he has gone about it.


He claims that Syria has crossed the red line, then goes to play golf.
He talks about military action, then punts it to Congress.
His Secstate makes a non-serious comment, tells us that it could never be done. now they're touting it as the greatest idea ever.
All the while Putin is literally making Obama look like a child.
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Old 09-10-2013, 01:18 PM   #27
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Explain to me how this " takes weapons off the table so nobody can use them"?? Do you have a magic WMD wand or something?
You pass a UN mandate to collect and destroy them with conditions for repercussions on any use or possession post mandate.

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I think Jim answered your last question quite well. Putin and Assad win! America loses.
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The point of air strikes would be sufficient punishment that Syria didn't use them again. If they voluntarily give them up that has been accomplished with much less risk of escalation.

It's an implicit acknowledgment by Russia that the attack wasn't a rebel stunt as was proposed. Assad is slapped with a UN resolution that will limit his military options and leaves the door open for further action depending on future humanitarian issues.

Putin doesn't really gain anything, Assad loses and Obama doesn't have to face a potential backlash...USA wins.

-spence
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Old 09-10-2013, 01:20 PM   #28
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It is different.

I can't decide where I stand on the issue of mi;litary action here. So it's not Obama's position that I necessarily object to, it's the way he has gone about it.
I don't think military action is mandatory unless the goal is to depose which it's been stated that's it's not. That being said, something has to be done to recognize the situation.

The admin has never been good at PR, this is nothing new.

-spence
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Old 09-10-2013, 01:31 PM   #29
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You pass a UN mandate to collect and destroy them with conditions for repercussions on any use or possession post mandate.


The point of air strikes would be sufficient punishment that Syria didn't use them again. If they voluntarily give them up that has been accomplished with much less risk of escalation.

It's an implicit acknowledgment by Russia that the attack wasn't a rebel stunt as was proposed. Assad is slapped with a UN resolution that will limit his military options and leaves the door open for further action depending on future humanitarian issues.

Putin doesn't really gain anything, Assad loses and Obama doesn't have to face a potential backlash...USA wins.

-spence
"You pass a UN mandate to collect and destroy them with conditions for repercussions on any use or possession post mandate"

And if Assad takes a page from Saddam's playbook, and violates the mandate? Does the UN do nothing, as it is doing at the moment? Assad alreeady broke the Geneva Convention rules Spence, and I don't see the UN doing much. The UN is not taken seriously by those who are looking to slaughter huge numbers of innocents.
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Old 09-10-2013, 01:32 PM   #30
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Very different circumstances.

-spence
Spence the question was, and I state for the 3rd time, "What would you be saying about Bush in the SAME circumstances."

" Choose Life "
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