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Old 01-04-2016, 07:10 PM   #1
nightfighter
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Executive Order background checks

A second thread about Obama and gun control. Two different subjects. Let's try to keep them separate.

I don't have the exact outline to copy and paste, so let me lay it out, as I initially understand it. Require more stringent background check for any firearm sale, including private/gunshow, which will create new class of firearm dealer requirements. Some 130 new FBI hires to handle additional background checks, and 200 new ATF hires to handle investigations.

I don't think I could have a problem with more stringent background checks, unless someone can show me where this may be a slippery slope.... Would like to see the minimum requirements for red flagging someone.... Hope party voting record would not have any bearing. How are they going to incorporate mental health history into the equation needs to be explored. I would have to believe there are a number of ranchers in Oregon who are currently adding a black mark to their future background checks.....

“Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose leaders are afraid to trust them with arms.” – James Madison.
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Old 01-04-2016, 07:14 PM   #2
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Wait a year and it will be nullified
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Old 01-04-2016, 07:33 PM   #3
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Has not been infringed
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Old 01-04-2016, 07:53 PM   #4
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I are staying out of thiz wun.
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Old 01-04-2016, 09:57 PM   #5
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I are staying out of thiz wun.
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You'll come around eventually, you have to much knowledge of the topic not to.....super dad
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Old 01-04-2016, 11:14 PM   #6
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Please stop the sanity.
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Old 01-05-2016, 04:34 AM   #7
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Please stop the sanity.
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Bigger government and more regulations fixes everything . We all know Bubba at the gun shows is the problem with gun violence in America . Brilliant !!
Brought to you by good people that brought you Operation Fast and Furious
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Old 01-05-2016, 05:28 AM   #8
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AND THESES Steps ARE A BAD THING ?? Please explain how any of theses are bad and restrict your 2A rights?

and please no talking points from your inbox


All sellers must be licensed and conduct background checks, overturning current exemptions to some online and gun show sellers
States must provide information on people disqualified due to mental illness or domestic violence
FBI will increase workforce processing background checks by 50%, hiring more than 230 new examiners
Congress will be asked to invest $500m (£339m) to improve access to mental healthcare
The departments of defence, justice and homeland security will explore "smart gun technology" to improve gun safety
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Old 01-05-2016, 05:38 AM   #9
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Bigger government and more regulations fixes everything . We all know Bubba at the gun shows is the problem with gun violence in America . Brilliant !!
Brought to you by good people that brought you Operation Fast and Furious
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your sure dont have many ideas on how to fix the gun problem or are unwilling to admit there is one .. seem you just regurgitate what the NRA tell's you say.. I understand See no evil speak no evil hear no evil

If gun owners got behind some of this common sense stuff and many do.. they get drowned out by the extremes and the Money it would be a Huge PR win But they would rather have the armed guys in oregon be their Flag bearers on 2A rights they do more damage to your cause the then Pres Obama .. And how are things going to change when hes out of office ??? Gun Makers have had a banner few year with no gun law changes .. Sadly Conservatives are the party of Fear
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Old 01-05-2016, 06:05 AM   #10
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your sure dont have many ideas on how to fix the gun problem or are unwilling to admit there is one .. seem you just regurgitate what the NRA tell's you say.. I understand See no evil speak no evil hear no evil

If gun owners got behind some of this common sense stuff and many do.. they get drowned out by the extremes and the Money it would be a Huge PR win But they would rather have the armed guys in oregon be their Flag bearers on 2A rights they do more damage to your cause the then Pres Obama .. And how are things going to change when hes out of office ??? Gun Makers have had a banner few year with no gun law changes .. Sadly Conservatives are the party of Fear
I have no idea what the NRA says .
Why don't you explain to me why under the Obama administration gun violation prosecutions have seen such a significant drop ? Seeing how he has been the best thing for gun sales and probably personally responsible for more guns being sold in the last 7 years , I would think we would be using the laws that are already on the books to there fullest . Do you have a problem with or even understand how many laws there already are ?? It appears he's only interested in going after the gpod guys.
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Old 01-05-2016, 06:44 AM   #11
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My understanding is that there is no "gun show loophole " if you occasionally sell a gun you are not required to become a licensed dealer but all license dealers are required to do federal background checks . I have never been to a gun show, even though I would be classified as "a gun nut "by some of you, my understanding is most of them at the shows are licensed gun dealers.
Now if I decide to sell a few guns to a relative do I now have to become a licensed dealer?
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Old 01-05-2016, 06:47 AM   #12
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Common sense is something the left says but doesn't understand. Anyone with common sense knows Hillary put classified information at risk with her use of an unsecured personal server. Common sense over how Hillary responded to the abuse of women her husband perpetrated against women shows she is not on the side of women.
Common sense over how she dealt with the video lie shows she is not trustworthy.
Common sense points to the speaking fees and donations from foreign governments to the Clinton foundation are nothing more than buying influence.
Common sense is something the left does not have.
Common sense about the war on drugs is that it is a failure.
Common sense would legalize Marijuana and allow people to grow their own without fear of penalty. Common sense is why people never should have put Duval Patrick back in office after he increased the sales tax by 25%.
Common sense would keep the Clintons out of the white house.

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Old 01-05-2016, 10:42 AM   #13
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Why don't you explain to me why under the Obama administration gun violation prosecutions have seen such a significant drop ?
I looked into this and it doesn't look like it's really that significant.

Federal weapons prosecutions are still very high under Obama compared to the last few decades. They did spike a few years after 9/11 but declined steadily under Bush and under Obama have sort of leveled out. It's also just a single statistic that without context doesn't mean a heck of a lot. You could have a shift towards local and state prosecution for instance that doesn't mean anyone is soft on anything.

I'd rate this one as made up talking point nonsense.
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Old 01-05-2016, 10:43 AM   #14
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I looked into this and it doesn't look like it's really that significant.

Federal weapons prosecutions are still very high under Obama compared to the last few decades. They did spike a few years after 9/11 but declined steadily under Bush and under Obama have sort of leveled out. It's also just a single statistic that without context doesn't mean a heck of a lot. You could have a shift towards local and state prosecution for instance that doesn't mean anyone is soft on anything.

I'd rate this one as made up talking point nonsense.

BS. I take your last line and throw it back at you
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Old 01-05-2016, 12:30 PM   #15
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BS. I take your last line and throw it back at you
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It's public data, not much to BS.
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Old 01-05-2016, 12:53 PM   #16
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My understanding is that there is no "gun show loophole " if you occasionally sell a gun you are not required to become a licensed dealer but all license dealers are required to do federal background checks . I have never been to a gun show, even though I would be classified as "a gun nut "by some of you, my understanding is most of them at the shows are licensed gun dealers.
Now if I decide to sell a few guns to a relative do I now have to become a licensed dealer?
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The gun show loophole is really the private sale loophole. To your point, all licensed dealers have to run background checks, but private sellers do not. However, in MA there is no private sale loophole because it is illegal to sell to someone who is not properly licensed in MA even in a private sale, so this doesn't matter all that much if you live in MA..
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Old 01-05-2016, 02:10 PM   #17
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Please stop the sanity.
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Spence, if I concede that there's no likely constitutional violation to these regulations, can you return the courtesy, and answer a question?

Here it is...let's say 250 get shot in Chicago in an average weekend. If we put these rules in place, how many less shootings can we expect in Chicago in an average weekend, as a direct result of these regulations? 3? 5?

Now, if we can save a few lives and not violate anyone's rights, we should do it.

But what will it take, exactly, for people on your side to agree to have the rest of the conversation that's required if we want to put a real dent in gun violence?

The right doesn't like to upset the NRA by curbing gun sales - that's fact. It's also fact that the left doesn't like to alienate urban blacks by telling them to knock it off, which is exactly what we need to be saying to the people in Chicago. The problem in Chicago isn't that these rules aren't yet law, and the problem obviously isn't white cops. The problem is that our culture is no longer embracing the kinds of values and behaviors that make one less inclined to shoot someone else.

Here's how I know that's true. In places that still embrace those values (or "cling" to them, as your beloved would say), there is very little gun crime.
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Old 01-05-2016, 03:29 PM   #18
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Yeah when the murders continue in Chicago after all of these new "orders" maybe then Obama will realize that it wasn't the guns that were the problem...

Here's one thing that I struggle with: it seems indisputable that suicides are more prevalent in areas with the most guns. We need to address this mental health issue somehow and the amount of deaths by guns would go down significantly simply because of the suicide factor. Here's a bit of research on the suicide thing: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/fi...rship-and-use/

As Ross mentioned though, this mental health thing can go very wrong if done incorrectly. For example, if you were treated for any mental health issue are you excluded from buying a gun? Where does it end?

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Old 01-05-2016, 03:43 PM   #19
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Yeah when the murders continue in Chicago after all of these new "orders" maybe then Obama will realize that it wasn't the guns that were the problem...

Here's one thing that I struggle with: it seems indisputable that suicides are more prevalent in areas with the most guns. We need to address this mental health issue somehow and the amount of deaths by guns would go down significantly simply because of the suicide factor. Here's a bit of research on the suicide thing: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/fi...rship-and-use/

As Ross mentioned though, this mental health thing can go very wrong if done incorrectly. For example, if you were treated for any mental health issue are you excluded from buying a gun? Where does it end?
"the amount of deaths by guns would go down significantly simply because of the suicide factor."

Interesting. I would have thought (and I would have been wrong) that suicide has nothing to do with availability of guns, since there are so many other ways to commit suicide, and many of those are preferable to me over gun.

"We need to address this mental health issue somehow"

I think w eknow how - we need to adopt the rules we used to have, which made it easier to commit someone before they hurt themselves or others. We know how to do that, we just don't have the stomach. Which is fine - if we want to give these people the freedom to walk freely, that means we are agreeing to accept the fact that a small number of them will do horrendous things.
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Old 01-05-2016, 04:12 PM   #20
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AND THESES Steps ARE A BAD THING ?? Please explain how any of theses are bad and restrict your 2A rights?

and please no talking points from your inbox


1All sellers must be licensed and conduct background checks, overturning current exemptions to some online and gun show sellers
2States must provide information on people disqualified due to mental illness or domestic violence
3FBI will increase workforce processing background checks by 50%, hiring more than 230 new examiners
4Congress will be asked to invest $500m (£339m) to improve access to mental healthcare
5The departments of defence, justice and homeland security will explore "smart gun technology" to improve gun safety
The main policy would not have stopped any recent mass shootings.

225 years of precedent, destroyed–without any legislative due process.
The expansion of background checks is an affront to freedom in general, because it brings private sellers under the purview of the government regardless of whether those sellers sell one gun a year or 100. Americans have been selling guns privately since 1791–that’s 225 years–and now, with a swipe of his pen, Obama is saying a portion of those sales must be handled federally and conducted via background checks.

This is a not-so-subtle slide toward universal background checks–the kind of background checks they have in California and France–and it will eventually require a gun registry database in order to be enforceable–like the registry they have in France and the one they are building in California.
Sounds bad to me.


You can be denied a gun for purely financial reasons or if you are on Social Security.

Sounds horribly bad


It adds more burdens to gun dealers who are already following the law.
This doesn't affect me because we already have it in Mass.


Nobody wants smart guns, they are unreliable and not proven. Bad idea, very bad idea



so stick with the laws we have
If the individual states can legally add laws to have better background checks, then that is a whole other story

"A government that does not trust it's law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust" James Madison

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so." Ronald Regan
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Old 01-05-2016, 04:58 PM   #21
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smart gun or no smart gun, a stupid irresponsible person is still going to be unsafe with it!
Every single damn accident with a gun is preventable, triggers don't pull themselves, I know Obama wants you to believe they do, but they just don't!
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Old 01-05-2016, 06:25 PM   #22
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Here's one thing that I struggle with: it seems indisputable that suicides are more prevalent in areas with the most guns. We need to address this mental health issue somehow and the amount of deaths by guns would go down significantly simply because of the suicide factor. Here's a bit of research on the suicide thing: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/fi...rship-and-use/
I've personally known 4 people that committed suicide.....none of them shot themselves. They all hung themselves.

Suicide is more prevalent where depression is......not where more guns are.

Suicides by guns are more prevalent where guns are......because it's convenient.

If someone wants to commit suicide they will do it.
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Old 01-05-2016, 06:37 PM   #23
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Suicides by guns are more prevalent where guns are......because it's convenient.

If someone wants to commit suicide they will do it.
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Studies have shown that if the person fails in the attempt or is prevented from killing themselves, they are not that likely to try again. With a gun they are more likely to succeed in their attempt.
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Old 01-05-2016, 06:39 PM   #24
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I didn't hear anything on this but what if anything might be against the constitution?
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Old 01-05-2016, 06:51 PM   #25
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I didn't hear anything on this but what if anything might be against the constitution?
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Oh you mean that piece of paper
I'm no expert but didn't he create a new crime ? I don't think the President can set law .
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Old 01-05-2016, 06:52 PM   #26
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Studies have shown that if the person fails in the attempt or is prevented from killing themselves, they are not that likely to try again. With a gun they are more likely to succeed in their attempt.
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The link I posted earlier on Australia found that with fewer guns not only did the suicide rate by firearm go way down but the rate of suicide fell also. I'd wager for exactly the same reason.
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Old 01-05-2016, 06:53 PM   #27
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The link I posted earlier on Australia found that with fewer guns not only did the suicide rate by firearm go way down but the rate of suicide fell also. I'd wager for exactly the same reason.
We should spend the money on the veterans that are killing themselves if that's his concern
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Old 01-05-2016, 07:08 PM   #28
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Studies have shown that if the person fails in the attempt or is prevented from killing themselves, they are not that likely to try again. With a gun they are more likely to succeed in their attempt.
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Did you ever think that is because now people know they need counseling now, where before it came out of nowhere.

People who fail or are prevented probably also didn't want to succeed.....they were looking for help.

If somebody truly wants to die.....they will.
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Old 01-05-2016, 07:09 PM   #29
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Oh you mean that piece of paper
I'm no expert but didn't he create a new crime ? I don't think the President can set law .
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I don't know anything other than people said what he proposed was unconstitutional. That is why I asked a question.
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Old 01-05-2016, 07:11 PM   #30
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We should spend the money on the veterans that are killing themselves if that's his concern
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I agree it's a worthy cause but that would require Republicans to stop thwarting VA funding.
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