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Old 11-20-2017, 07:58 AM   #1
wdmso
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GOP TAX PLAN

Senate Finance Committee would permanently cut corporate tax rates. But benefits for individuals and families, like doubling the standard deduction and cutting individual rates, would disappear after 2025. Republicans say they hope a future Congress will decide to keep the tax cuts in place,

White House Budget Director Mick Mulvaney, is among those who say the only way to stick to those rules it to let the individual tax breaks expire.

"One of the ways to game the system is to make things expire,"

family earning a median income of $73,000 will get a tax cut of nearly $1,500, according to Hatch.

So pass any bill because you need a point on the board

change the rules so you can get a point on the board

tell Americans nearly get 1500 a year ( thats laughable ) sounds like a geico commercial

Trump will have Savings of about $1.1 billion from Just repealing the estate tax

But its going to help the middle class ...........
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Old 11-20-2017, 11:25 AM   #2
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drain the swamp
term limits

this tax plan crap is just creative financing that makes us all poorer but rich get richer , sounds like dirty politics. There must be some good points to this tax plan no? or are you just focusing on the negatives

I'd like to choose not to pay taxes also.

"A government that does not trust it's law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust" James Madison

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so." Ronald Regan
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Old 11-20-2017, 11:44 AM   #3
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drain the swamp
term limits

this tax plan crap is just creative financing that makes us all poorer but rich get richer , sounds like dirty politics. There must be some good points to this tax plan no? or are you just focusing on the negatives

I'd like to choose not to pay taxes also.
My take on it is the main thrust is to get the "economy" booming. One of the reasons the "middle class" is disappearing is because the economy is not vibrant enough to expand and provide the capital to create the jobs needed to support a healthy "middle class." If that doesn't happen, then not only will various tax breaks expire, so will the Republican hold on their majorities. And the Dems will then reinstitute their economically sluggish tax policies. But they will accompany that with enough giveaways and "supports" for "families" and for the shrinking "middle class" (which will all, obviously, be the fault of the Republicans).

And the debt spiral will continue to grow. But that's OK. At least everyone will be paying their "fair share."
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Old 11-20-2017, 11:46 AM   #4
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drain the swamp
term limits

this tax plan crap is just creative financing that makes us all poorer but rich get richer , sounds like dirty politics. There must be some good points to this tax plan no? or are you just focusing on the negatives

I'd like to choose not to pay taxes also.
Seems good is based on the size of ones wallet...

seem you got the negative side covered
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Old 11-20-2017, 12:01 PM   #5
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Seems good is based on the size of ones wallet...

seem you got the negative side covered
So do you want a large enough private sector economy to support the growth in size of peoples wallets? Or do you prefer that the government fill our wallets.

And don't give me that crap about government filling the wallets of corporations by not taxing them. Government does not generate the money that businesses do. Government doesn't fill up wallets. It empties them. Taking less taxes does not fill any wallets, it drains them less. We've had several years of government taking a higher level of business taxes, and, magically, the "middle class" is supposedly disappearing.

Right ... the answer is to take even more out of business wallets. That will obviously drive a "middle class" comeback.

And, naturally, the big businesses will continue to donate to the party in power in order to somehow, nearly always get things working in their favor. Like getting more regulations passed that benefit them against their competitors.

Big is in. Middle just can't compete with the big government big business complex. And little gets mollified with "breaks" and giveaways from government.

And the national debt spiral will continue to grow.
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Old 11-20-2017, 12:23 PM   #6
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Senate Finance Committee would permanently cut corporate tax rates. But benefits for individuals and families, like doubling the standard deduction and cutting individual rates, would disappear after 2025. Republicans say they hope a future Congress will decide to keep the tax cuts in place,

White House Budget Director Mick Mulvaney, is among those who say the only way to stick to those rules it to let the individual tax breaks expire.

"One of the ways to game the system is to make things expire,"

family earning a median income of $73,000 will get a tax cut of nearly $1,500, according to Hatch.

So pass any bill because you need a point on the board

change the rules so you can get a point on the board

tell Americans nearly get 1500 a year ( thats laughable ) sounds like a geico commercial

Trump will have Savings of about $1.1 billion from Just repealing the estate tax

But its going to help the middle class ...........
"would permanently cut corporate tax rates"

if that happens, watch what happens to the value of companies, to the stock market, and to unemployment.

"tell Americans nearly get 1500 a year ( thats laughable ) "

If that estimate turns out not to be true, they deserve to catch a lot of heat. Remind me, when Obama sais that the ACA would save the average family $2500 a year, were you as skeptical?
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Old 11-20-2017, 01:13 PM   #7
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I'll put it in the same account I'm depositing my $2,500 annual Obamacare savings . . .



Allowing an illegal border crosser to stay in the US with amnesty and start the legal immigration process
is like allowing a bank robber to go free and keep the money as long as he fills out a loan application.
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Old 11-20-2017, 01:14 PM   #8
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If the GOP plan passes this year, would it apply to the 2017 tax returns?

If so, and if the GOP's claims about savings prove to be false, they will get rightfully creamed in the 18 midterms. Creamed.

If the GOP plan does in fact put a few more bucks in the pockets of the middle class (and if the stock market takes off and wages go up), the GOP will clobber the Dems in the midterms.

High stakes game here.
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Old 11-20-2017, 01:54 PM   #9
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Jury is still out on this. I have at least $500-700 (what I pay my accountant) of potential savings if I can file a return the size of a postcard myself. That said I live in a high tax state and RI will stand to lose some tax revenue - look for them and other blue states to tax the crap out of their residents with state taxes to make up the loss. But I guess its only fair as from what I read the northeast is heavily subsidized by other states. I think our beef will really be with our state legislators if this tax plan goes into effect. Time to cut state spending.

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Old 11-20-2017, 02:02 PM   #10
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Jury is still out on this. I have at least $500-700 (what I pay my accountant) of potential savings if I can file a return the size of a postcard myself. That said I live in a high tax state and RI will stand to lose some tax revenue - look for them and other blue states to tax the crap out of their residents with state taxes to make up the loss. But I guess its only fair as from what I read the northeast is heavily subsidized by other states. I think our beef will really be with our state legislators if this tax plan goes into effect. Time to cut state spending.
And yet we've been told, including by some on this forum, that the high tax states were subsidizing the rest of the country.
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Old 11-20-2017, 02:30 PM   #11
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Jury is still out on this. I have at least $500-700 (what I pay my accountant) of potential savings if I can file a return the size of a postcard myself. That said I live in a high tax state and RI will stand to lose some tax revenue - look for them and other blue states to tax the crap out of their residents with state taxes to make up the loss. But I guess its only fair as from what I read the northeast is heavily subsidized by other states. I think our beef will really be with our state legislators if this tax plan goes into effect. Time to cut state spending.
You must have a complicated return. I have partnerships, real estate, div, interest, cap. gains and I do my own.

Where have you read that the NE is subsidized by other states? Do you have any links to articles? I've read many times that the NE states pay more to the feds than they get back.
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Old 11-20-2017, 03:07 PM   #12
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I'm so glad I'm retired and taxes are not my big worry, but I see it as the rich getting richer.
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Old 11-20-2017, 03:24 PM   #13
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You must have a complicated return. I have partnerships, real estate, div, interest, cap. gains and I do my own.

Where have you read that the NE is subsidized by other states? Do you have any links to articles? I've read many times that the NE states pay more to the feds than they get back.
Paul,
My taxes are indeed complicated - use to do my own but not anymore. Here is a link to an article that explains both sides of SALT (state and local tax deduction) and how it fits into the plan.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...tion-explained

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Old 11-20-2017, 03:33 PM   #14
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Thanks, but that doesn't say that the NE is heavily subsidized by other states. The state and local tax deduction is only 1 part of federal taxes. W/o that deduction, we would be taxed 2 x on the same $ of income.

Red states get more $ from the gov. per $1 then they pay to the gov. Blue states get less $ from the gov per $1 then they pay to the gov.

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-mos...vernment/2700/

https://www.theatlantic.com/business...takers/361668/

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_recko...our_taxes.html

http://www.businessinsider.com/red-s...ernment-2015-7
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Old 11-20-2017, 03:52 PM   #15
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Thanks, but that doesn't say that the NE is heavily subsidized by other states. The state and local tax deduction is only 1 part of federal taxes. W/o that deduction, we would be taxed 2 x on the same $ of income.

Red states get more $ from the gov. per $1 then they pay to the gov. Blue states get less $ from the gov per $1 then they pay to the gov.

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-mos...vernment/2700/

https://www.theatlantic.com/business...takers/361668/

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_recko...our_taxes.html

http://www.businessinsider.com/red-s...ernment-2015-7
You're right its only one loophole. The other loopholes such as mortgage insurance are just to controversial. Again, we'll see how it goes. I'll let you know next year how it impacts me - if it improves the lives of the majority and improves the countries economy I'm all for it.

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Old 11-20-2017, 06:15 PM   #16
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how can any fiscal conservative voter support this BS? Donít forget regan reverses hisbtwx cuts once he realized how badly he #^&#^&#^&#^&ed up the national debt.
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Old 11-20-2017, 06:54 PM   #17
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If the GOP plan passes this year, would it apply to the 2017 tax returns?

If so, and if the GOP's claims about savings prove to be false, they will get rightfully creamed in the 18 midterms. Creamed.

If the GOP plan does in fact put a few more bucks in the pockets of the middle class (and if the stock market takes off and wages go up), the GOP will clobber the Dems in the midterms.

High stakes game here.
No, the 2017 law is already set.

The tax benefit to the Middle Class is minimal. The real recipients are the super wealthy and corporations who will, if history is any guide, use the savings to buy back stocks and increase dividends.

Companies in the US area already sitting on over 2 trillion in cash with another 2.5 trillion overseas. A lack of funds isn't inhibiting domestic growth.

You're not going to see much economic impact from this plan if it passes. Many think the market is already overvalued and the idea that more free cash will lead to wage growth is silly. Companies pay based on perceived value, not available money to spend.
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Old 11-20-2017, 09:11 PM   #18
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how can any fiscal conservative voter support this BS? Donít forget regan reverses hisbtwx cuts once he realized how badly he #^&#^&#^&#^&ed up the national debt.
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Here's how...slashing corporate tax rates COULD be good for lot of people.

Doubling the standard deduction, will help a lot of people who are poor to lower middle class. This is bad?
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Old 11-20-2017, 09:14 PM   #19
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No, the 2017 law is already set.

The tax benefit to the Middle Class is minimal. The real recipients are the super wealthy and corporations who will, if history is any guide, use the savings to buy back stocks and increase dividends.

Companies in the US area already sitting on over 2 trillion in cash with another 2.5 trillion overseas. A lack of funds isn't inhibiting domestic growth.

You're not going to see much economic impact from this plan if it passes. Many think the market is already overvalued and the idea that more free cash will lead to wage growth is silly. Companies pay based on perceived value, not available money to spend.
"The real recipients are the super wealthy and corporations"

Who benefits from doubling the standard deduction? The wealthy itemize deductions, they don't use the standard deduction.

"if history is any guide, use the savings to buy back stocks and increase dividends. "

Buying back stocks, increases stock price. That's good for everyone who has a 401k or an IRA, correct?

"Companies in the US area already sitting on over 2 trillion in cash with another 2.5 trillion overseas. A lack of funds isn't inhibiting domestic growth"

A lack of confidence is stifling growth. The cost of growing here, is an impediment to growth. False?
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Old 11-20-2017, 09:36 PM   #20
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The Trump Plan cost everybody who makes less than I think it was $125,000 money and saves money for everybody making over 125,000. Funny how the admin. shifted away from saying it was a reduction for everybody. Now the former deficit Hawks have their foot in their mouth after seeing how much the defecits will explode. The middle class thought they were going to benefit by the Trump presidency and they got played.
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Old 11-20-2017, 10:04 PM   #21
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The Trump Plan cost everybody who makes less than I think it was $125,000 money and saves money for everybody making over 125,000. Funny how the admin. shifted away from saying it was a reduction for everybody. Now the former deficit Hawks have their foot in their mouth after seeing how much the defecits will explode. The middle class thought they were going to benefit by the Trump presidency and they got played.
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Which is the trump plan? There's a house plan and a senate plan, which is Trumps?

"The middle class thought they were going to benefit by the Trump presidency and they got played"

I am middle class (maybe upper middle class, no higher than that), and my IRA and 401k are going through the roof. That's real, Paul. I gave Obama credit for the stock market going up, fairness says Trump gets credit too.

If he slashes corporate tax rates, and he gives an incentive for corporate money overseas to come back here, that has to help at least a bit. Unemployment is very low right now. So if companies want to grow, they will have to pay attractive wages, because there's not much supply of labor.

Bill Clinton and George Bush cut taxes, and the economy did very well. Tax cuts CAN help, not always (see Kansas).
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Old 11-21-2017, 01:20 AM   #22
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No, the 2017 law is already set.

The tax benefit to the Middle Class is minimal. The real recipients are the super wealthy and corporations who will, if history is any guide, use the savings to buy back stocks and increase dividends.

Companies in the US area already sitting on over 2 trillion in cash with another 2.5 trillion overseas. A lack of funds isn't inhibiting domestic growth.

You're not going to see much economic impact from this plan if it passes. Many think the market is already overvalued and the idea that more free cash will lead to wage growth is silly. Companies pay based on perceived value, not available money to spend.
You seem to have a static view rather than a dynamic one. The history of buying back stocks and increasing dividends wasn't always, as in the past eight years, dependent on quantitative easing with its huge influx of government money. Rather it was based on money generated by business, and yes, also helped by favorable tax rates which was not an excess of money as is government pumping an over supply of money.

Money generated by private sector business creates actual wealth which makes possible a real and expanding market. Fiat money not based on actual business is a hope and prayer that somehow it will stimulate rather than inflate. The recent government pumping has created more inflation than stimulation. And if corporations merely sit on cash, it loses value (inflation). And if investors can hedge against inflation by buying stocks and bonds before the price inflates, then sell them later for gains to those who don't have that initial pile of fiat money to spend, they'll do that rather then risking investing in new business ventures.

And lowering business taxes along with decreasing regulations that benefit the large corporations at the expense of the smaller businesses, can make small business startups more economically feasible (create perceived value, as you put it). As well, there will be less incentive to move money and jobs out of the country.

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Old 11-21-2017, 05:06 AM   #23
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improves the countries economy

seems everyone is saying this ? if unemployment is at historic low's how does a huge tax cut IMPROVE the economy ?

you will not see support from employers to increase in the min wage
or better heath insurance plans from employers more matching 401k contributions or just an increase in Pay



House of Representatives eliminates nearly $65 billion in credits, deductions, and exclusions that help students and their families afford tuition and student loan payments,

These cuts would take away the ability for nearly 12 million Americans to deduct interest paid on their student loans.

all that so the math will work to get rid of the estate Tax repeal hows that help? middle class

if your rich you can afford to send your kids to school with out loans so it wont effect the rich ..

the GOP is trying to spread the tax cuts all across the backs of the middle class ( distribute the weight so it dosn't feel like their on our backs when it clearly they are )
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Old 11-21-2017, 07:19 AM   #24
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improves the countries economy

seems everyone is saying this ? if unemployment is at historic low's how does a huge tax cut IMPROVE the economy ?

you will not see support from employers to increase in the min wage
or better heath insurance plans from employers more matching 401k contributions or just an increase in Pay



House of Representatives eliminates nearly $65 billion in credits, deductions, and exclusions that help students and their families afford tuition and student loan payments,

These cuts would take away the ability for nearly 12 million Americans to deduct interest paid on their student loans.

all that so the math will work to get rid of the estate Tax repeal hows that help? middle class

if your rich you can afford to send your kids to school with out loans so it wont effect the rich ..

the GOP is trying to spread the tax cuts all across the backs of the middle class ( distribute the weight so it dosn't feel like their on our backs when it clearly they are )
"if unemployment is at historic low's how does a huge tax cut IMPROVE the economy ? "

People have more money to spend. Businesses have money (and just as important, more confidence) to invest in growth. When corporate tax rates are cut, every business in the country is instantly more valuable than it was the day before. That is a good thing.

When unemployment is high, businesses can get more labor for cheap, because workers have no alternative. When everyone is already working, and businesses want to hire, they need to make it worth our while to leave our current jobs and work for them.

"you will not see support from employers to increase in the min wage"

No, you won't. What you will see, is the forces of supply and demand, force wages up. When the free market decides that workers are worth more, that's good. When the government decides that something is worth more than what someone wants to pay for it, that can be (isn't always ) bad.

"These cuts would take away the ability for nearly 12 million Americans to deduct interest paid on their student loans"

It also takes away my ability to deduct state taxes. But doubling the standard exemption, that alone, will help a lot of people at the bottom of the economic spectrum. Rich people do not take the standard deduction, they itemize deductions. I'm not an accountant, so can someone explain how this doesn't put more money in the pockets of lower income people?

"the GOP is trying to spread the tax cuts all across the backs of the middle class "

When all you do is focus on the things that will increase taxes, and you ignore everything that offsets that to lower taxes (like increasing the standard deduction), yes that's true. But your effective tax rate is the result of many moving pieces within this plan, not just the pieces that increase taxes.

If it gets passed, and the middle class sees a widespread tax hike, the GOP will get creamed in the next election, and they will deserve it.
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Old 11-21-2017, 09:21 AM   #25
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"

If it gets passed, and the middle class sees a widespread tax hike, the GOP will get creamed in the next election, and they will deserve it.
We'll see what the final bill is.

The political calculus is, I think, that the impacts will be felt towards the end of 2018 and in the 2019 filing season after the 2018 election. I think theyGOP are just hoping to get 2108 to stay towards the right.

2020 has the potential to be more challenging, if the Dem's can field a candidate worth voting for. 2020 could easily see serious infighting with Trump getting primaried. That would be chaotic for 2020 house/senate seats.

Some of the changes (like taking tuition stipends for graduate students as income) just seem punitive and stupid. That one in particular, in an age where we need more tech savvy, educated citizens, lets make it harder to afford graduate school...

I'm not worried, at least I can write off my private jet costs now...

Bryan

Originally Posted by #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&
"For once I agree with Spence. UGH. I just hope I don't get the urge to go start buying armani suits to wear in my shop"
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Old 11-21-2017, 09:32 AM   #26
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You canít deduct your grad school loans but you can deduct your private Christian academy loans. Let that sink in.....
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Old 11-21-2017, 09:52 AM   #27
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You canít deduct your grad school loans but you can deduct your private Christian academy loans. Let that sink in.....
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Is that true? If so, it's stupid.

Nebe, you own a small business? SO doesn't it help you, If the corporate income tax rate goes from 35% to 20%? If you keep 80% of your income, instead of 65% of your income, that's a 23% increase. That doesn't help you at all? I would sincerely hope that it would. But it's quite possible I'm missing something.
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Old 11-21-2017, 10:02 AM   #28
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We'll see what the final bill is.

The political calculus is, I think, that the impacts will be felt towards the end of 2018 and in the 2019 filing season after the 2018 election. I think theyGOP are just hoping to get 2108 to stay towards the right.

2020 has the potential to be more challenging, if the Dem's can field a candidate worth voting for. 2020 could easily see serious infighting with Trump getting primaried. That would be chaotic for 2020 house/senate seats.

Some of the changes (like taking tuition stipends for graduate students as income) just seem punitive and stupid. That one in particular, in an age where we need more tech savvy, educated citizens, lets make it harder to afford graduate school...

I'm not worried, at least I can write off my private jet costs now...
"2020 could easily see serious infighting with Trump getting primaried. That would be chaotic for 2020 house/senate seats."

Agreed 100%.

But if the economy is still steamrolling in 2018 or 2020, I suspect people will be willing to put up with Trump's idiotic behavior. I know I will.
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Old 11-21-2017, 10:24 AM   #29
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Is that true? If so, it's stupid.

Nebe, you own a small business? SO doesn't it help you, If the corporate income tax rate goes from 35% to 20%? If you keep 80% of your income, instead of 65% of your income, that's a 23% increase. That doesn't help you at all? I would sincerely hope that it would. But it's quite possible I'm missing something.
Yes. It will help Me. I will use that savings to boost my savings and pay off debt. I could also use that savings to outsource my production to a 3rd world country to save even more.

Or.. they could raise my taxes, in which case I would look to widen my deductions and hire employees.

See how the republicans dupe you?
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Old 11-21-2017, 10:33 AM   #30
zimmy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
Is that true? If so, it's stupid.

Nebe, you own a small business? SO doesn't it help you, If the corporate income tax rate goes from 35% to 20%? If you keep 80% of your income, instead of 65% of your income, that's a 23% increase. That doesn't help you at all? I would sincerely hope that it would. But it's quite possible I'm missing something.
Those numbers are really misleading and useless. Only thing that matters is effective tax rate. Effective tax rates for sole proprietors is 13% S business 26.9%. The 23% increase is a complete pie in the sky calculation and almost certainly way off. Misleading! Sad!

My eyes is goin' crazy!
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