Van Staal [SIZE="1"]made in china[/SIZE]

[cheferson]

Did they really move manufacturing to china???

[JohnR]

Where did you hear this? Hope not...

[cheferson]

the other site

[Pete_G]

Definitely true.

Although I have to say they gave the shop one early this year with the usual instructions to try and destroy it. They wouldn't tell us what was new other then that it was different until a couple days go.

The anodizing was better (we didn't put 2 and 2 together at the time), it was smoother, and it caught a lot of fish.

Sad though, regardless.

[cheferson]

Originally Posted by Pete_G

Definitely true.

Although I have to say they gave the shop one early this year with the usual instructions to try and destroy it. They wouldn't tell us what was new other then that it was different until a couple days go.

The anodizing was better (we didn't put 2 and 2 together at the time), it was smoother, and it caught a lot of fish.

Sad though, regardless.

No negative differences? Same parts and materials? Are they gonna knock the price back??

[Pete_G]

Originally Posted by cheferson

No negative differences? Same parts and materials? Are they gonna knock the price back??

It's the same exact reel as far as I know. Just made there. We tried for a long time to identify what was different about the one we got and there's just nothing obvious.

I highly doubt you'd see a price drop and I haven't heard anything at all about price change.

If the Saltiga and Stellas having some parts made out of cast metal still sell for $600 to $700 made overseas there's just no way I can see a price drop on similarly priced but instead all machined reel made overseas.

[fishpoopoo]

Originally Posted by Pete_G

Sad though, regardless.

Why? If VS is getting better margins, then that means the reel will be around for that much longer. If quality (for a VS) remains consistent, then why should we care?

17,000 VS reels in circulation IIRC (correct me if I'm wrong).

WTF cares - parts made overseas ain't gonna make a dent in our balance of trade or employment situation. Drop in the bucket.

People ain't gonna stop buying or using VS reels just because they are made in China. This prejudice is irrational.

[JohnR]

Togue - good post - pretty much sums it up other than our failing of parenting and education in addition to the lack of manufacturing capability... The Van Staal, at the forefront of American stability and National Pride - Who Knew?

Weewee, the prejudice is not irrational. Our country's lack of desire to deal with, compete, and force a level playing field is irrational.

[Pete_G]

Originally Posted by fishpoopoo

Why? If VS is getting better margins, then that means the reel will be around for that much longer. If quality (for a VS) remains consistent, then why should we care?

17,000 VS reels in circulation IIRC (correct me if I'm wrong).

WTF cares - parts made overseas ain't gonna make a dent in our balance of trade or employment situation. Drop in the bucket.

People ain't gonna stop buying or using VS reels just because they are made in China. This prejudice is irrational.

Just a feel good thing mostly.

But I agree, misplaced. Personally I don't care that much, but there's no question many care VERY much about the move.

[maddog2020]

Dan Hill had mentioned it to me last yr (Fall) they were doing in China and that they have live video of the shop so they can SEE if something goes wrong and correct it as quick as possible. I just thought everyone knew that.

The new VSB and the 275 have the newer instant anti-reverse system in them which are suppose to be way better than the older/first generation ones. I wish they could incorporate it into the older style reels, but that would involve new tooling which could add more to the cost so VS isn't about to do it.

If you send the reel in each yr or service it yourself you should be ok. I personally don't know any one who has KILLED a VS yet.

LOTS of consumer goods are made in China! It is a fact of reality now a days. Go to a store pick up any item and look for country of origin sticker/label.

[joe the plumber]

Originally Posted by maddog2020

Dan Hill had mentioned it to me last yr (Fall) they were doing in China and that they have live video of the shop so they can SEE if something goes wrong and correct it as quick as possible. I just thought everyone knew that.

The new VSB and the 275 have the newer instant anti-reverse system in them which are suppose to be way better than the older/first generation ones. I wish they could incorporate it into the older style reels, but that would involve new tooling which could add more to the cost so VS isn't about to do it.

If you send the reel in each yr or service it yourself you should be ok. I personally don't know any one who has KILLED a VS yet.

LOTS of consumer goods are made in China! It is a fact of reality now a days. Go to a store pick up any item and look for country of origin sticker/label.

My first year with a VS and I loved it,of course.Now help me understand,when I send this thing in for its yearly maintaince where will it go and who will perform the maintaince.

[Mike P]

So, paying a machinist pennies an hour (assuming he's not a convict working for free) as opposed to whatever the going rate for a skilled machinist is in Tulsa (figure a minimum of $15/hour even in a non-union shop) doesn't warrant a price drop?

I'm sure the guy pouring castings in Tokyo is also making a decent wage, too--probably comparable to what an American was making at Penn casting reel bodies.

Pete, I know you're a pro staffer but you are way too much of an apologist for these guys. I can't accept that you can be objective on the subject of VS

[Diamond Tackle]

Originally Posted by Mike P

So, paying a machinist pennies an hour (assuming he's not a convict working for free) as opposed to whatever the going rate for a skilled machinist is in Tulsa (figure a minimum of $15/hour even in a non-union shop) doesn't warrant a price drop?

I'm sure the guy pouring castings in Tokyo is also making a decent wage, too--probably comparable to what an American was making at Penn casting reel bodies.

Pete, I know you're a pro staffer but you are way too much of an apologist for these guys. I can't accept that you can be objective on the subject of VS

Could not POSSIBLY AGREE WITH YOU ANY MORE .
You are 100% correct Sir.
Big Corp America. Save a bundle on manufacturing costs by giving jobs away to a country that builds childrens toys with Lead Paint, and don't give the consumer even a penny break. Just pocket the additional profits.The new American way, everyone is doing it so it must be ok ? SAD.

[Pete_G]

Originally Posted by Mike P

So, paying a machinist pennies an hour (assuming he's not a convict working for free) as opposed to whatever the going rate for a skilled machinist is in Tulsa (figure a minimum of $15/hour even in a non-union shop) doesn't warrant a price drop?

I'm sure the guy pouring castings in Tokyo is also making a decent wage, too--probably comparable to what an American was making at Penn casting reel bodies.

Pete, I know you're a pro staffer but you are way too much of an apologist for these guys. I can't accept that you can be objective on the subject of VS

I just offered my opinion. I know what it costs to make a Stella, I know what it costs to make a VS in the US, and I can guesstimate what it costs to make a Van Staal in China.

As for the rest of it, it's just what it is. It's not an apology. People asked a few questions so I answered. 1. They're made in China. 2. They look, feel, and are the same. Do what you want with the truth.

Lastly, I'm not a "pro-staffer"...

[spence]

Doesn't surprise me at all. This is a very common issue with many luxery goods.

A niche brand with a strong legacy struggles to maintain quality and profit. They are bought by a larger group who seeks to make profit from the brand identity, but to do so need to scale sales to a broader audience. The old production methods don't scale well so production is moved offshore where it's cheaper.

Then the brand is milked for all it's worth. While the new owner leverages the brand identity and touts the legacy quality to justify a continued high (or even higher price) the actual methods end up turning out something that simply wasn't what it once was.

Now that's not to say that you can't make a quality product in China, but it may not be what marketing continues to push.

Soon enough though, some smaller niche vendors will step up and start the cycle again.

-spence

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Pete_G

and I can guesstimate what it costs to make a Van Staal in China.

After tooling is complete?
Maybe $10.

God bless profit.

[BassDawg]

Originally Posted by Mike P

So, paying a machinist pennies an hour (assuming he's not a convict working for free) as opposed to whatever the going rate for a skilled machinist is in Tulsa (figure a minimum of $15/hour even in a non-union shop) doesn't warrant a price drop?

I'm sure the guy pouring castings in Tokyo is also making a decent wage, too--probably comparable to what an American was making at Penn casting reel bodies.

While that much is true, and VERRRRY SAD, what is also true is the flip side of what's NOT happening in China. One of the primary reasons they can offer lower mfg costs is because they have no standards to measure up to. Here we have OSHA, BBBureau, Industry watchdogs, and one of the biggest impacts to many companies' bottom lines is the way the insurance conglomerates of the "Good Ole US of A" have been fleecing corporate Amercia and driving our economy for decades.

Ever since The Great Depression, the employer driven insurance and bennies system has been moving towards the place where we are now. The Program is simply NOT cost effective to the bottom line. Over there, the CEO's can finally realize/recoop some real fiscal profit and begin to establish some real net worth. Do we know how close they've come to going under while trying to provide the "Best Damn Reel in the World"? Does anyone honestly think that the good People of Tulsa want their jobs, product, their "niche" being niched in China?

While it is entirely possible to produce good reels on foreign soil, and I'm all for China becoming a capitalistic society.....................

In the process it does NOT make sense to me to cut the NUTZ right off of our domestic workers because our insurance and benefits pkgs need to be rethunk. Likewise, if the foreign manufacturers had to compete fairly and measure up to the current American Standards of fair wage, insurance, workman's comp, breaks every two hours, unions, quality control standards, enuff VP's to retool the whole line, etc. etc., then I think that we would find many of our jobs return to American soil.

Perhaps the silver lining is that on the other side of this current economic trend, ownership~management~labor could sit down and negotiate terms that would lead them all to higher profit margins and long term employment practices.

I don't blame VS for trying to leverage their position, ZEBCO is somewhat to blame because without demand......; but this whole concept of moving labels overseas has been prevalent and profitable for sometime now, and it SUX!! It is very sad that we can't seem to figure out how to correct the workplace, so that we can restore US dominance to the world marketplace.

[JoeP]

Mike:

I have to respectfully disagree with you here. I've had several conversations with Pete about all the high end reels and he's objective & as informed as he can be. He sells at least 3 of the 4 top end spinning reels so he really has no reason to be biased towards VS - and in my experience he is not.

If he says he's put the "chinese" version of the VS through the ringer I take his word for it. Not saying I'm happy they're now made in China but I believe Pete's analysis of the "chinese" reel.

Only time will tell if they're worse or better - but just remember that every model of reel has had it troubles time to time.

Originally Posted by Mike P

Pete, I know you're a pro staffer but you are way too much of an apologist for these guys. I can't accept that you can be objective on the subject of VS

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by JoeP

Mike:

I have to respectfully disagree with you here. I've had several conversations with Pete about all the high end reels and he's objective & as informed as he can be. He sells at least 3 of the 4 top end spinning reels so he really has no reason to be biased towards VS - and in my experience he is not.

If he says he's put the "chinese" version of the VS through the ringer I take his word for it. Not saying I'm happy they're now made in China but I believe Pete's analysis of the "chinese" reel.

Only time will tell if they're worse or better - but just remember that every model of reel has had it troubles time to time.

I agree.

[tattoobob]

Originally Posted by joe the plumber

My first year with a VS and I loved it,of course.Now help me understand,when I send this thing in for its yearly maintaince where will it go and who will perform the maintaince.

Van Staal Service
6109 E. Apache
Tulsa, OK 74115

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by maddog2020

I personally don't know any one who has KILLED a VS yet.

You need to talk to Kenny "Cowhunter". I think his grand total was 5 VS 250s DOA. I was fishing with Crazy Al the night his VS came apart in his hands--that sideplate that most people can't remove with a strap wrench came off the reel. How is a mystery, but it did happen.

I guess the half dozen guys (that I know personally) who have had the shoulder bolt on the handle snap while jigging the Canal with their brand new 275s this year didn't KILL their VS, but it sure KILLED their fishing for the night unless they had a back-up reel with them. I'd classify that as a wounded reel for sure.

[fcap60]

Unforunate yes, suprising no.

Nobody should really be suprised by this. It's like many other products once made in the USA that are now being maufactured overseas where production costs are lower.

Let's just hope that the quality remains superior. Who knows, maybe the prices will come down once production is perfected.

It wasn't that long ago that many of us objected to owning ASIAN made automobiles claiming that quality was inferior. Let's see what happens with these VS'

[Nebe]

pffft.

[Chefskeez6]

I would be willing to pay about $200 more for something made in the USA.

Zee cough Baas cough. Made in Connecticut.

[cheferson]

WIll they be available at Wal-mart now??

[Nebe]

Why are all of you so surprised?
van stall is now owned by friggen ZEBCO... Of course this was going to happen.

[bart]

what a bunch of bullshat. how is the price not going to drop? they obviously moved the operations over there so that the cost of manufacturing would be less.

F VS. i'll be fishing my 704s until they explode.....which isn't going to happen anytime soon...

[Striperhound]

The only potential issue I see with manufacturing in china is a potental recall for lead

[ridler72]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Why are all of you so surprised?
van stall is now owned by friggen ZEBCO... Of course this was going to happen.

Great point. It was inevitable. I guess it's safe to say Van Staal Reel line will all be down hill from here. Buy your parts now and stock up!
Who will be next?

[lurch]

I do not care where they are made as long as the quality stays the same but what gets me is that the profit margin for VS increases by X% without a decrease in price.

If you had a mechanic who charged a premium because he had enough experience to fix every problem he ran into...the same mechanic decides to retire and hands the business over to his son who was only getting coffee for him during the day...would you still pay that same premium?? I know I would be going to a different mechanic if the high rates remained.

I am not saying that the components will change but the experience of the worker assembling the reel will decrease which could lead to field failures. In the time it takes the workers to get up to speed folks will switch over to a ZB.

In my industry we are going through the same problem of QA engineers in India (sent all QA testing for a specific product to India) not finding basic bugs even though the tests are the same. IMO there will be a blip in reliability of the reels with the reels being assembled in China.