long term striper management

[niko]

piemmas poll and thread has got my big brain working overtime and i didn't want to hijack that thread. i've got some questions. which states still allow for the commercial harvest of bass and what are their quotas? also what is the estimate as far as the total biomass for stripers and what % of the biomass is considered to be acceptable to harvest and sustain(ideally grow) the population. is there any real way to find out just how many fish are taken by recs. would some sort of mandatory reporting system work in conjunction w/ the upcoming liscence. just thinking in public - don't bash me

[piemma]

All great questions. When things calm down in my life I will do a study and post results. This data should not be too difficult to gather.

[numbskull]

Here is where to start Interstate Fisheries Management

The real issue is that counting fish is a very soft science. The truth is that their population estimates can be off by 50% or more (and their head fish counter admits this). I am told (how accurately I don't know) that mortality rate also is probably an underestimate, the figures they use have a ridiculously low factor for poaching (a big time industry north and south), and do not include allowance for increasing natural mortality from disease (ie mycobacteriosis), deteriorating forage base, and seal predataion.

Disregarding poaching, the commercial numbers are fairly hard, but the recreational catch is a very crude estimate....and the main reason the Feds are insisting on an angler registry (to improve sampling accuracy).

[JohnnyD]

Without the paperwork that comes from selling fish, I fail to see how an angler registry can effectively be implemented. As long as I'm in possession of a legal fish from the shore to my home in case I get checked, who's going to look over my shoulder when I get home to make sure I register it?

[numbskull]

They don't plan nor need for you to register each fish. What they need is an accurate data base of who is a saltwater fisherman. With that information they can then efficiently do phone surveys of a random subset that will allow them to predict with a high degree of accuracy what is being caught, what is being kept, and how much effort it requires to catch it.

[Islander77]

Originally Posted by numbskull

What they need is an accurate data base of who is a saltwater fisherman. With that information they can then efficiently do phone surveys of a random subset that will allow them to predict with a high degree of accuracy what is being caught, what is being kept, and how much effort it requires to catch it.

True but to much like an honor system to me... I am a commercial guy at heart meaning I have, my father still does, and every man in my family BOTH SIDES moms and dads have fished for a living... That being said the thing is commercial boats have state and federal observers on board to keep them honest at times.. also A "few" grand in TRACKING equipment NO BS there the boats all are being tracked and have to call in departure/ arrival of port so everyone that thinks commercial is so easy try again sorry, if this upsets people sorry but its reality... Other than that I think the States of NE should really just effin step up with the squirrel cops thing.. I followed one down atlantic ave in westerly other night he checked the state beach lot and took off... I think the more the mortality comes from inexperienced people not knowing how to fish in addition to the arsses keeping short fish for NO reason.... My two cents

[bloocrab]

You have to be joking....I just shared a large bottle of wine with my father over an all you can eat clam boil so pardon my slurrring....

...but are you people that ignorant to believe that there could ever be a system that would even come close to keeping track of the number of fish...legal or not, that are caught by both commercial and recreational fishermen???? The number of fish that actually die after a non-successful release??? Or get discarded as bycatch ...or whatever/etc///.......most of the analytical numbers are bogus in my opinion. Like Saltheart said in the other thread, (but in my own words) ...most people on these websites are fairly honest ...but what about the other people. Mr. Saturday night, fishing off of a bridge...catching shorts and releasing them from a 40' drop? Or the guy who spends 20 minutes trying to unhook some trebles? Or the boats in an open oceanic spot where they know how much time they have before they can be possibly boarded???....

Soft science is an EXTREME understatement if you ask me.

I HAVE TO believe that the people that do catch regularly, KNOW what they're doing (more or less) ...and DO catch more than Mr. Saturday night who like Saltheart said, do NOT catch many fish.

Mr. Saturday night catches a shorty during his night and keeps it. Mr. Experienced internet hero catches 14 shorties and releases them all. Of the 14, 4 do not make it. Mr. Saturday night is responsible for 1 death (which he consumes), Mr. Internet HERO is responsible for 4 deaths? Who is doing more harm? The guy breaking the law...or the guy obeying the law but killing more fish?.....there's a Poll for ya.

[Islander77]

Originally Posted by bloocrab

You have to be joking....I just shared a large bottle of wine with my father over an all you can eat clam boil so pardon my slurrring....

...but are you people that ignorant to believe that there could ever be a system that would even come close to keeping track of the number of fish...legal or not, that are caught by both commercial and recreational fishermen???? The number of fish that actually die after a non-successful release??? Or get discarded as bycatch ...or whatever/etc///.......most of the analytical numbers are bogus in my opinion. Like Saltheart said in the other thread, (but in my own words) ...most people on these websites are fairly honest ...but what about the other people. Mr. Saturday night, fishing off of a bridge...catching shorts and releasing them from a 40' drop? Or the guy who spends 20 minutes trying to unhook some trebles? Or the boats in an open oceanic spot where they know how much time they have before they can be possibly boarded???....

Soft science is an EXTREME understatement if you ask me.

I HAVE TO believe that the people that do catch regularly, KNOW what they're doing (more or less) ...and DO catch more than Mr. Saturday night who like Saltheart said, do NOT catch many fish.

Mr. Saturday night catches a shorty during his night and keeps it. Mr. Experienced internet hero catches 14 shorties and releases them all. Of the 14, 4 do not make it. Mr. Saturday night is responsible for 1 death (which he consumes), Mr. Internet HERO is responsible for 4 deaths? Who is doing more harm? The guy breaking the law...or the guy obeying the law but killing more fish?.....there's a Poll for ya.

That wine really went to your head.. As far as by-catch goes hmm most draggers are after suqid now bluefish is a bycatch plenty of that on pallets lately... AND FOR THE RECORD YES COMMERCIAL GUYS DONT HAVE A CAKE WALK OH I CAN KILL WHATEVER LIFE YALL THINK I DONT CARE HOW MUCH WINE YOU HAVE THAT WILL NOT CHANGE THEY ARE REGULATED MONITORED AND TRACKED ALL THE WHILE THE HAVE AN OBSERVER ON BOARD... NOT ROD AND REEL COMMERCIAL IM TALKING ACTUAL COMMERCIAL.. Rod and reel is totally different and wont be round much longer the way the industry is headed.....And soon enough we will all be sittin here saying man fishin was so much better before GATES FISHING INC. took over the government want big business not small independent guys reality if that happens kiss our ocean good bye!!!!!!!!!!!

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by bloocrab

...but are you people that ignorant to believe that there could ever be a system that would even come close to keeping track of the number of fish...legal or not, that are caught by both commercial and recreational fishermen???? The number of fish that actually die after a non-successful release??? Or get discarded as bycatch ...or whatever/etc///.......most of the analytical numbers are bogus in my opinion. :

Yikes, this is heading downhill fast. Every striped bass fisherman, commercial and recreational (including catch and release guys), kills fish.
Habitat degradation, forage depletion (of which other commercial fisheries are a major factor), disease, and natural predation kill fish.

Nobody expects to be able to "keep track" of each fish caught. They only want to improve the accuracy of their estimates, which are then used in an overall model to predict current and future fish populations. Those predictions are then tested against real world catch numbers, sampling results, and anecdotal experience. Like it or not, managing a resource requires this. That the numbers are "bogus" and too easily manipulated for alternate agendas is a fact of life. Better data can help improve that. The alternative is no fishery whatsoever.

[bloocrab]

Originally Posted by Islander77

That wine really went to your head.....

....head, shoulders, knees and toes,,, (had to throw that in there as that's all I hear in my sleep now..with the new baby)

...NOT ROD AND REEL COMMERCIAL IM TALKING ACTUAL COMMERCIAL.. Rod and reel is totally different...

DON'T TAKE OFFENSE TO MY POST!!!!....again, IMO...the majority of the members on this site are Rec...and Commie R&R,,,, but I could be wrong as I don't dig into everyone's business. It will ALWAYS be a GUEsstimate in my opinion....and just like horse/shoes...at times they may come close.

1. They only want to improve the accuracy of their estimates, ///// 2..Those predictions are then tested against real world catch numbers,......//// 3. Like it or not, managing a resource requires this.....//// 4. That the numbers are "bogus" and too easily manipulated for alternate agendas is a fact of life. .....///
Yesterday 10:18 PM

1. Point taken, but How accurate do YOU really think they can get? and WHY do you feel that way?

2. Real World Catch Numbers = ???,???,??? What is this?

3. Resources need to be managed and YES, these types of resources are VERY difficult to manage. I just don't like reading reports that give you an actual number. I read something in the Fisherman the other day that placed a number on how many people fished last year and how many fish were caught. Again, where the helll are they getting this data from?

4. Your final statement sums up my point.


...oh yeah, and lastly Mr. Numbskull....my intentions were not to drive this truck downhill....my apologies as I know my post came off a bit ,,, I've said it once and I'll say it again, I don't really know what I'm talking about, sometimes I just like to talk.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Islander77

NOT ROD AND REEL COMMERCIAL IM TALKING ACTUAL COMMERCIAL.. Rod and reel is totally different and wont be round much longer the way the industry is headed.....

Which is a major part of the problem.

The less selective the fisheries have gotten over the years, the smaller tha average catch, and the worse it has gotten. More selective fisheries should be WHERE we are headed.

[MAKAI]

You ever see a british sportfishing mag ?
The conger eel and trash fish are the trophies.
We are inexorably heading down this same path.
So many different opinions on what needs to be done that ultimately nothing gets done.
It's what people do best, as my buddy Paul says," It's like herding cats."
So catch them while you can.

[TheSpecialist]

After watching numerous shows about commercial fishing, it is quite apparent that it does indeed have a huge negative affect on fisheries.

One show I saw, was about the Hawaiian fleet,said they actually keep their non target species for sale.
But after watching the show about the long liners, and see them discarding dead shorts, and dead sharks it left a bad taste in my mouth.

As far as angler registration goes I've seen what happens before. They do basically the same thing for migratory birds, it is called a hip permit. They will randomly call you and ask questions. Some of the questions are how many days or trips did you hunt? How long did you spend hunting?, how many of this duck did you shoot? how many of that duck did you shoot ?
Does this info help them? I doubt it, as there is nothing preventing someone from fudging the numbers whether it be accidentally ( you just don't honestly remember) or on purpose( you know but would rather they did not).

[JohnR]

As far as striped bass goes, more recreational "registered anglers" will give the guvmint a much bigger pool to ask questions and dresge info from. Think that proposed level of "science" data is bad, they currently cold call out of the blue to ask. A lot of people talk about how rarely they are approached by an EPO (not surveying) or an actual person working for NMFS doing a survey - happened to me once 10 years ago - is a next to non-existent.

So they will be able to base their surveys on talking to anglers that actually fish so their data will improve from horrible to just miserable.

As for who puts the biggest dent in the fishery along the coast - that's probably recreational by far

[Islander77]

Sorry to all for my statements earlier, was not trying to take this down a bad road. As far as what I said its true like it or not. And yes people throw back dead shorts as The Specialist points out.... So let me ask you this you gill hook a schoolie you keep it right??? cause I mean it gill hooked dead anyway right??? Yea exactly my point if you did and dem saw it you would get fined... well reality is dead or not short fish or to much fish on a boat costs them money... Oh and there fines start at the 25k mark not $50... and loss of time on water so...

[TheSpecialist]

Originally Posted by Islander77

Sorry to all for my statements earlier, was not trying to take this down a bad road. As far as what I said its true like it or not. And yes people throw back dead shorts as The Specialist points out.... So let me ask you this you gill hook a schoolie you keep it right??? cause I mean it gill hooked dead anyway right??? Yea exactly my point if you did and dem saw it you would get fined... well reality is dead or not short fish or to much fish on a boat costs them money... Oh and there fines start at the 25k mark not $50... and loss of time on water so...

I would like to see a 1 fish no size limit for that exact reason. Most people would prefer to eat a small striper over a large anyway, and the big girls are breeders. JMO

[BasicPatrick]

8% of recreational caught and released Striped Bass are assessed to have died after release and that mortality is incorporated in stock asessment models

natural mortality numbers in the stock asessment do include diseases

1 fish at no size limit will more than double current Striped Bass mortality ad would collapse the stock

even recreational community science tells us less than 5 % of persons that try to catch a keeper striped bass actually do

counting fishermen/woman is MAYBE one benefit from the salt water fishing license.

just because a state does not have a commercial fishery for S-B does not mean they are killing less fish

many states have a conservation equivalency (ie: NJ does not use it's commercial quota but harvests those fish under it's recreational fishing program program)

Maine loves to complain about having no striped bass but has zero problem letting various commercial fishing fleets harvest most of the forage fish in state waters...take the herring and mackerel away and then complain there is no Stripers....nice....same for NC and the menhaden

[MakoMike]

I'm not going to get involved in another heated debate. If you want to find out what is really going on go to Http://www.asmfc,org, under managed species click on striped bass and start reading.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by BasicPatrick

8% of recreational caught and released Striped Bass are assessed to have died after release and that mortality is incorporated in stock asessment models

I find this item far too difficult to assess. How can infection be accounted for, nitwits that don't revive fish, break-offs that prevent effective feeding?

even recreational community science tells us less than 5 % of persons that try to catch a keeper striped bass actually do

How exactly would you define "recreational community science"? So you're saying less than 1 in 20 people keep fish that land them? I'm guessing this number accounts for people that go out and get skunked? I go out every time with the intention of catching a keeper, but I don't always land one. Seems the metric for this is set to make the number appear artificially low.
When the fish are around, people are keeping them. When there are fish in the canal, I'd guess at least 1 in 3 have a fish on shore that landed one. Same goes for the beach and at least that many people keeping fish from boat.

I know many of us deeply appreciate what you are doing for the fishery. But being condescending to people that may disagree about certain points is not winning you any battles - especially when the science behind some of the points appear questionable on the surface.

Edit: As a side note, I'm strongly against any form of saltwater license. Enforcement will be lackluster at best and I have zero confidence the money I pay into it will actually benefit the fishery. Hell, presently when you witness someone keeping shorts or more than 2 fish and call to report it, no one ever shows up - even in a place as easily accessible as the Canal Service Road.

[Islander77]

I dont go for one any size that is opening a door to massive destruction.. The honest people would not be the problem... The ones looking for " A monster bass yo" would be cause as they caught bigger the ONE turns into many many more.. This is gonna be a never ending headache... Being involved with the commercial side of regs and understanding how it all works I will say this the reason they have councils to decide is cause Two or more fisherman will never agree on anything in an open forum or admit they can agree.. Sorry everything from Catch limit to plugs to bait to line or terminal tackle we all have debates on... So how can any one expect to get a reg set up if we do not all agree.. Now I at the moment do not fish to put food on the table I will however not let the men who work that field get bashed horribly. But on the topic of conservation of our precious and madness causing resource we call stripers, Here is what needs to happen WE ALL NEED TO STAND TOGETHER AT MEETINGS AND ADDRESS OUR THOUGHTS AND IDEAS TO THIS COUNCIL, NOT JUST FOR BASS BUT ALSO FOR BAIT FISH AND FOOD SOURCE FOR THEM. ALL FISHERIES MEETINGS ARE OPEN TO PUBLIC THEY HAVE TO BE ITS LAW OTHER WISE IT WOULD BE CALLED A "CLOSET HEARING" WHICH ARE ILLEGAL IN OUR SYSTEMS... Just an idea guys you want to save our fisheries lets not be the guys on an opposite side of jetty or breachway arguing, We need to stand united whether you hate the guy next to you or not. We all have the same common interest in saving this stock of fish for the future. Why do we all need to argue and fight over it between ourselves? Put that fight were it belongs really!!! Wow ok I am gonna step off my soap box now lol....

[BasicPatrick]

Johny D... I think you are readng something into what I posted.

I argue over the science all the time and agree our best science is not much more than educated guess.

I was only trying to aswer a few of the easy questions that came up in this thread.

The 8% release mortality number comes form a study by MA DMF and is surely nothing more than an average. Obvously less mortality for well handled fish and more for poor handled fish. etc etc. My point about disease is only that there is an accounting for disease mortality, not that I agree with the numbers. The one fish per person statement has been around for a long time and has been analyzed a lot but once again, I am not saying I agree, just that there are numbers used.

I see our need as to challenge the numbers with better numbers. How we do that is another question completely.

I agree with Mike that the best source for some of this Info is ASMFC but to be honest many of these questions will not be readily avaiable on the web site. The staff thre does however do a great job in getting answers to questions.

As far as condescending, I was not trying to be in this thread by any means. Just offerring up some info. I think these threads are great as they make people think about the resource and every once in a while someone will attend a hearing or meeting. Awesome!!!

As far as the other thread...I did not fire until called the first name. I'll debate merits of an arguement with anyone...call me ignorant or stupid...well then...we'll argue!!!

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by BasicPatrick

Johny D... I think you are reaidng something into what I posted.

I argue over the science all the time and agree our best sceince is not much more than educated guess.

I was only trying to aswer a few of the easy questions that came up in this thread.

The 8% release mortality number comes form a study by MA DMF ad is surely nothing more than an average. Obvously less mortality for well handled fish and more for poor handled fish. etc etc. My point about disease is only that there is a acco%$%$%$%$ing for disease mortality. The one fish per person statement has been around for a long time and has been analyzed a lot.

I agree with Mike that the best source for some of this Info is ASMFC but to be honest many of these questions will not be readily avaiable on the web site. The staff thre does however do a great job in getting answers to questions.

As far as condescending, I was not trying to be in this thread by any means. Just offerring up some info. I think these threads are great as they make people think about the resource and every once in a while someone will attend a hearing or meeting. Awesome!!!!!1

As far as the other thread...I did not fire until calle dthe first name. I'll debate merits of an arguement with anyone...call me ignorant or stupid...well then...we'll argue

My apologies. It seems we're somewhat on the same page then.

From any of the research I've done, any science seems to be very loose in definition. I compare it to the estimated 5-12 thousand (a 140% margin within their "estimate") of seals off our shores. Now this is an animal that needs to come up to the surface for air, is quite large, spends a fair amount of time on sand bars sunning itself and stays within close proximity of those bars. Correlate that to a fish that is constantly on the move, is often times undeniably difficult to track and never has a need to breach the surface.

Timing typically doesn't allow for me to go to meetings, but I try to phone and email my reps whenever necessary.

[niko]

this is staying remarkably civil. if i started this on the other site there would be death threats by now.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by niko

this is staying remarkably civil. if i started this on the other site there would be death threats by now.

It's amazing what kind of discussions can take place amongst sensible people.

[MAKAI]

Are you lookin at me ? I don't see anyone else here . . . .

[bloocrab]

Getting back to one of your questions,,,

.......is there any real way to find out just how many fish are taken by recs. would some sort of mandatory reporting system work in conjunction w/ the upcoming liscence.........

Paul, .....IMO,,, the only way I see this happening ..would be if every single rec. fisherman was totally honest and took the time to record and report every single outing. not going to happen, not in my lifetime anyways.

This number will always be a GUESS. Whether it's well educated or not, it will always be a guess.

Sure, it's nice to sit behind a screen reading posts written by guys who care....it's even nicer to imagine that everyone that fishes releases properly, doesn't take more than their share, yada yada yada....but it's not reality.

Do we need Official Conservation groups? ABSOLUTELY!!!
Do we need laws controlling us? ABSOLUTELY!!

Being a level-headed individual, I just don't buy the numbers being presented to me, that's all. It's a guess at best. ((Did I say that already?))

The following is a quote taken from the Sept. 3rd, 2009 Fisherman mag. #36 New England Edition:

"Saltwater recreational anglers took an estimated 85 million fishing trips in 2008, down slightly from the 93 million trips estimated in 2007. Saltwater anglers caught an estimated 464 million fish in 2008, down slightly from the 475 million caught in 2007. That the decreases were moderate reflects stability in saltwater angling"

I'm sure some of the guys on here who say they fish 7 nights a week drove this number up...

But seriously, Were any of you involved in this count? I sure the hell wasn't. How accurate can these numbers be? Would a report like this presented to a politician be persuasive in some way? .....or maybe..

We'll come up with some reports, reports that WILL incorporate facts from every corner of the Atlantic. Facts that we will present in the manner that we'd like them to vote, and pray for the best. Primitive thinking on my part? ,,, but again, JMO......



BTW.......is it winter already???

[niko]

what it all boils down to for me is what i experience out there. the last couple of seasons i've seen a reduction in the amount of fish inshore in my home waters. i'm not ready to push the panic button, but it concerns me. i'm sure the dogfish plague in my area is part of the problem and the lack of peanut/adult bunker isn't helping any. are the fish hanging offshore feeding on sandeels? if i was a hungry bass i would be. it could very well be just a couple of weak seasons in the areas i fish most or just a natural cycle that occurs. i just want to make sure my boys have the opportunity to bail bass like i have. the bottom line is i'm gonna ease up on the amount of fish i'm taking, in particular larger fish. i know there is no real way to figure out how many fish are taken by recs. it's just been a long crappy season for me basswise and i was looking for some solace in the numbers, which ain't gonna happen. on the brighter side - the fish i have caught seem pretty fat and happy. no sign of nasty red sores on any fish this year

[MAKAI]

Originally Posted by bloocrab

Getting back to one of your questions,,,



Paul, .....IMO,,, the only way I see this happening ..would be if every single rec. fisherman was totally honest and took the time to record and report every single outing. not going to happen, not in my lifetime anyways.

This number will always be a GUESS. Whether it's well educated or not, it will always be a guess.

Sure, it's nice to sit behind a screen reading posts written by guys who care....it's even nicer to imagine that everyone that fishes releases properly, doesn't take more than their share, yada yada yada....but it's not reality.

Do we need Official Conservation groups? ABSOLUTELY!!!
Do we need laws controlling us? ABSOLUTELY!!

Being a level-headed individual, I just don't buy the numbers being presented to me, that's all. It's a guess at best. ((Did I say that already?))

The following is a quote taken from the Sept. 3rd, 2009 Fisherman mag. #36 New England Edition:

"Saltwater recreational anglers took an estimated 85 million fishing trips in 2008, down slightly from the 93 million trips estimated in 2007. Saltwater anglers caught an estimated 464 million fish in 2008, down slightly from the 475 million caught in 2007. That the decreases were moderate reflects stability in saltwater angling"

I'm sure some of the guys on here who say they fish 7 nights a week drove this number up...

But seriously, Were any of you involved in this count? I sure the hell wasn't. How accurate can these numbers be? Would a report like this presented to a politician be persuasive in some way? .....or maybe..

We'll come up with some reports, reports that WILL incorporate facts from every corner of the Atlantic. Facts that we will present in the manner that we'd like them to vote, and pray for the best. Primitive thinking on my part? ,,, but again, JMO......



BTW.......is it winter already???

Anytime our goverment gets involved it's a smoke and mirror show.
Name one thing the goverment does well ?
Not that it matters I may keep one or two fish a season.
Out of several hundred, as a lot of the guys I fish with.
All released well, no kicking back in or thrown like a brick.