Increase Commercial Catch for Striped Bass? Or NOT? - Sign up here - Page 3 - Striper Talk Striped Bass Fishing, Surfcasting, Boating

JohnnyD · 08-14-2010, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam_777

Can someone tell me how they guesstimate the rec numbers in the first place.

It sure seems like they apply the following technique:

ivanputski · 08-14-2010, 11:21 AM

If there is a discrepancy between the comm take and the recreational take, why not decrease the recreational take rather than up the comm quota to level it out??? Make the recreational limit 1 fish per day, any size... But upping the comm quota to simply be equitable with the bogus recreational figure doesnt make any sense... smells like some lobbying going on behind the scenes...

CowHunter · 08-14-2010, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ivanputski

If there is a discrepancy between the comm take and the recreational take, why not decrease the recreational take rather than up the comm quota to level it out??? Make the recreational limit 1 fish per day, any size... But upping the comm quota to simply be equitable with the bogus recreational figure doesnt make any sense... smells like some lobbying going on behind the scenes...

Reduce the recreational take????? Recreational season doesnt close, you can go 7 days a week, 1,2,3,4,5 times a day, 12 months a year in some states as long as you dont have more than 2 fish in posession at anytime... Nobody counts those fish... Those rec kill numbers are way, way higher than anyone can estimate, they can never estimate em as they have no clue... The 1 fish a man would make the greatest difference, just think u do have to put a size limit on it...

ivanputski · 08-14-2010, 01:55 PM

I'm saying reduce the rec take by 50% by making it one fish per day instead of 2. Since it's never REALLY possible to accurately estimate the amount of fish joe-weekend takes, if 75% of anglers are honest and actually follow regs, than the 1 fish per day would reduce the amount taken by a large percentage... I feel I'm getting off topic though... the Point I am making is this :

you should never INCREASE a take (comm quota) in an attempt to equalize a discrepancy... If it is thought that the rec-angler takes more per year, then take steps to reduce that amount, not increase it to make everyone happy. the goal should be to decrease the total amount of the resource taken per season... on BOTH SIDES... Do what's best for the RESOURCE and it's future, not disgruntled categories of anglers... that is a no-brainer

CowHunter · 08-14-2010, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ivanputski

I'm saying reduce the rec take by 50% by making it one fish per day instead of 2. Since it's never REALLY possible to accurately estimate the amount of fish joe-weekend takes, if 75% of anglers are honest and actually follow regs, than the 1 fish per day would reduce the amount taken by a large percentage... I feel I'm getting off topic though... the Point I am making is this :

you should never INCREASE a take (comm quota) in an attempt to equalize a discrepancy... If it is thought that the rec-angler takes more per year, then take steps to reduce that amount, not increase it to make everyone happy. the goal should be to decrease the total amount of the resource taken per season... on BOTH SIDES... Do what's best for the RESOURCE and it's future, not disgruntled categories of anglers... that is a no-brainer

I agree with you 100%.. The problem is that the Recs will never go for the 1 fish until its to late, If the com catch was increased to even 50% of the rec catch man would people be crying....

ivanputski · 08-14-2010, 03:09 PM

Many recreational fisherman are too shortsighted when it comes to their own favorite past time... I'm a rec. angler, and I would like to be catching bass 10 years from now.

MikeToole · 08-14-2010, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowHunter

I agree with you 100%.. The problem is that the Recs will never go for the 1 fish until its to late, If the com catch was increased to even 50% of the rec catch man would people be crying....

I agree with this but for a reason you will not like. Looking at this from another stand point why would a recreational fisherman agree to a one fish limit when others individuals are allowed to catch many more and make a profit from it. I agree that we need to reduce the recreational harvest but I think the only way it can actually happen is by either eliminating commercial fishing or greatly reducing the quota.

To say their is a "discrepancy" because recs catch is increasing while commercial is not, is meaningless and should not be part of the management process. Actually the recreational catch has not been increasing over the last five years, it has more or less been stable. Fisheries are to be managed in the best interest of the public. From a dollar standpoint for stripers the big money and jobs comes from recreational fishing. From the human standpoint millions of people get to enjoy recreational fishing for stripers bring family and friends together, even if only for one day. May sound corny but it's true.

We can keep say the fish are just in other areas or people do not know how to fish but doesn't match the ASMFC numbers. There has been about a 20%decrease in the spawning stock from 2004 to 2008.

CowHunter · 08-14-2010, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeToole

I agree with this but for a reason you will not like. Looking at this from another stand point why would a recreational fisherman agree to a one fish limit when others individuals are allowed to catch many more and make a profit from it. I agree that we need to reduce the recreational harvest but I think the only way it can actually happen is by either eliminating commercial fishing or greatly reducing the quota.

To say their is a "discrepancy" because recs catch is increasing while commercial is not, is meaningless and should not be part of the management process. Actually the recreational catch has not been increasing over the last five years, it has more or less been stable. Fisheries are to be managed in the best interest of the public. From a dollar standpoint for stripers the big money and jobs comes from recreational fishing. From the human standpoint millions of people get to enjoy recreational fishing for stripers bring family and friends together, even if only for one day. May sound corny but it's true.

We can keep say the fish are just in other areas or people do not know how to fish but doesn't match the ASMFC numbers. There has been about a 20%decrease in the spawning stock from 2004 to 2008.

I really believe that even if you did get rid of the Comm fishing in Mass and RI the combined 1.3 million pounds will not make a difference. I know many will disagree....

jmac · 08-14-2010, 07:20 PM

Quote:

I agree with this but for a reason you will not like. Looking at this from another stand point why would a recreational fisherman agree to a one fish limit when others individuals are allowed to catch many more and make a profit from it. I agree that we need to reduce the recreational harvest but I think the only way it can actually happen is by either eliminating commercial fishing or greatly reducing the quota.

To say their is a "discrepancy" because recs catch is increasing while commercial is not, is meaningless and should not be part of the management process. Actually the recreational catch has not been increasing over the last five years, it has more or less been stable. Fisheries are to be managed in the best interest of the public. From a dollar standpoint for stripers the big money and jobs comes from recreational fishing. From the human standpoint millions of people get to enjoy recreational fishing for stripers bring family and friends together, even if only for one day. May sound corny but it's true.

We can keep say the fish are just in other areas or people do not know how to fish but doesn't match the ASMFC numbers. There has been about a 20%decrease in the spawning stock from 2004 to 2008.

What happens to the general public, who do not fish, but love to eat fish, specifically striped bass? It has been a tradition for generations that specific sectors of the population (be they religious, ethnic, etc), have eaten striped bass. I know the argument always comes up about farm raised HYBRID striped bass....but it just doesn't pass muster compared to the real thing. So by caving in to the demands of the recreational fishery to have the whole fishery to themselves, you eliminate that portion of the population that does not have the means to catch it themselves.
And as you say, recreational fishing is a big cash cow...boats based on striper fishing, tackle based on striper fishing, quasi-commercial aspect of charter boat industry, etc....sounds pretty hypocritical to me that the commercial fisherman is the culprit to the supposed "downfall" of the striped bass....as always, it comes down to what's in it for me....

Clammer · 08-14-2010, 08:56 PM

JMAC

Were you on the water today ??? east passage ????

ivanputski · 08-15-2010, 12:32 AM

The biggest mistake any of us can make based on this issue is to pick a side, and then argue it's validity... Do whatever it takes to preserve and protect the future of this fragile resource... I dont give a rats arse about the person who loves the taste of striped bass... They'll be tasting frozen fish sticks when the fishery collapses again... Do what's best for preserving the resource... period.

DZ · 08-15-2010, 06:34 AM

We tried to reduce recreational take in Rhode Island some years ago by asking our managers for a more conservative option. Our managers told us that AFMFC will take any savings and give it to other states/user groups. When AFMFC says "your permitted to take so much in your state" you have to come up with a figuere that equals an amount that they approve - any more they reject it - any less they take the savings and pass it to someone else. No leeway.

I would think that a majority of recs would approve of a more conservative take - an exception would possibly be the "for hire" industry but they are a small fraction of the rec number. But recreational take is not the issue here at these current meetings.

DZ

jmac · 08-15-2010, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Were you on the water today ??? east passage ????

no.....haven't been in Bay since RI season....except bait....banging my head against the wall in MA...

JohnnyD · 08-15-2010, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowHunter

I really believe that even if you did get rid of the Comm fishing in Mass and RI the combined 1.3 million pounds will not make a difference. I know many will disagree....

I disagree mostly because you aren't including the copious amounts of poaching in that number.

CowHunter · 08-15-2010, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

I disagree mostly because you aren't including the copious amounts of poaching in that number.

You guys are making a big deal over the poaching that is going on during the mass and Ri commercial season. What you fail to understand is that it still goes towards the quota which gets shut down in Ma at 1.1 million pounds. And in Ri on their spring and fall quota which is what, 100k or so? Fish are swapped Ma, Ri and so on. How many of the best comm guys u see out there fishing bass when the season is closed??? The bigger problem lies in rec guys going out 1, 2 plus times a day keeping their 2 fish each and selling them black market, nobody is counting those fish and that is going on in quite a few states where the black market is huge. Forget about nc and Va, those southern boys make the northern poachers look like amatures, they use gill nets, drag Em, haul seign Em and don't give a rats as about being legal on the water... They also poAch the eez zone without a care in the world.. All the hard core rec guys that want 2 at 28 inches promote poaching the wAy I see it. I only kill for myself what I am going to eat fresh not freeze when I'm not com fishing or doing charters. On the charters guys don't care what the limit is because they are going to kill the limit regardless.... This time around the rec guys can blame the comm guys, but in the end, it's the rec guys killing well over 90percent of the striped bass kill... Is what it is...
Johnny, rec guys, kinda like ur teapot to kettle pic???
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

afterhours · 08-15-2010, 01:21 PM

sure seems like if it was'nt for the $$$ tag on them alot of problems would'nt exist....

JohnnyD · 08-15-2010, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowHunter

Johnny, rec guys, kinda like ur teapot to kettle pic???
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Going strictly from what I've experienced, almost every single commercial fisherman I have met has "issues with counting". That's not to say that all of them break the law, and the ones I've met are a small sample size. There is no denying that not all the fish that are caught on a commercial license are sold legally.

With regards to rec guys making 1 or 2+ trips a day and getting their 2 fish each time, I've never witnessed it - I'm sure some people do. I'd be curious to see *any* report that shows the recreation kill is "90percent of the striped bass kill".

In terms of me keeping fish, I've kept one this year and it was for my girl's mother.

In case you didn't get the teapot and kettle picture I posted, it was with regards to how you talk out of both side of your mouth. In one moment you complain about how many fish are killed and by whom, and in the next you're posting pictures of 50lbers killed and boasting about your 20 fish days.

I may disagree with Raider Ronnie on a pretty consistent basis, but at least he has enough balls to pick his side and stick with it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you think too many fish are being killed then put your money where your mouth is and stop chartering and give up your commercial permit, otherwise quit bitching about how many fish are killed and by whom.

ivanputski · 08-15-2010, 02:52 PM

Cow hunter... I dont know you, your profession, or your intent... and this is not meant as a jab... I mean it with no disrespect... but your avatar image speaks so much louder than anything you type in this forum... a picture is worth a thousand words... I've never removed that many breeders from circulation in my LIFETIME... never mind one tide... Like I said... no disrespect, but I can only stare at that image so many times before everything you type starts sounding like the teacher on Charlie Brown.

CowHunter · 08-15-2010, 03:33 PM

In no way am I complaining, just stating facts and experiences... I'm not going to stop chartering because it's killing bass, the law allows 2 fish a man, my clients want two fish so be it. I am stating that it is not necesary to have a 2 a man limit that clients merely kill two fish because the law allows it if the law allowed 1 fish a man they would be just as happy. As for the commercial season, I will fish it as long as it exists because the quota will get filled with or without me, yes I can live without it. I just don't think u guys realize how many guys do it, that's why u only have 5 guys a day going to this meeting... Yes raider Ronnie is strictly diehard com / charter guy... U do have to realize that charter guys are taking rec guys out fishing and charters are responsible for more rec kill than anyone else up the coast... Just because I am stating Facts, wether people like to hear it or not, there ate several states affecting the fishery not just Boston harbor or stellwagon... I'm sorry if I com fish, charter, and surf / rec fish, but I do it all and nobody has a right to tell me to pick a side or stop doing it cause it might be harming the fishery and so on, I am far from being blind as to what's going on. Ive fished on all sides.. I am telling you as a charter captain, the rec catch is way to high and way out of balance.
Again just because I dont agree with raising the com quota, in all honesty, On paper they deserve to raise the com quota to balance out the com vs recreational catch.... And yes, I truly believe the rec catch is 90% or better... I believe even the NOAA conservatively agrees with me by the look of their graphs...
For christ sake, we are comparing people running meth labs as equivelent to poachers. JohnnyD made a comment about Big oil preventing alternative energy... Well it is in their best interest... Is it any different than diehard rec guys or diehard comm guys wanting the fishery for themselves?????

Fly Rod · 08-15-2010, 04:09 PM

If you want to read what the estimated recreational striped bass mortality rate is click below. If the fishery was going to collaspe it may be because of the recreational fisher person.

Catch And Release For Stripers

CowHunter · 08-15-2010, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ivanputski

Cow hunter... I dont know you, your profession, or your intent... and this is not meant as a jab... I mean it with no disrespect... but your avatar image speaks so much louder than anything you type in this forum... a picture is worth a thousand words... I've never removed that many breeders from circulation in my LIFETIME... never mind one tide... Like I said... no disrespect, but I can only stare at that image so many times before everything you type starts sounding like the teacher on Charlie Brown.

No problem.... I dont want to claim Im somebody Im not... Yes I kill bass commercially, yes I charter, and yes I surfcast... I have fished all up and down the coast for years and I am just stating my observations and changes over the last few years. I am not one sided and am merely stating that things are well off balance....

CowHunter · 08-15-2010, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

If you want to read what the estimated recreational striped bass mortality rate is click below. If the fishery was going to collaspe it may be because of the recreational fisher person.

Catch And Release For Stripers

That is all Im saying, You cant blame the comm guys this time around with less than 10% of the catch... Although I do believe we are a ways away from any collapse, plenty of fish still around, some of us have been extremely spoiled over the last few years...

CowHunter · 08-15-2010, 04:45 PM

With regards to rec guys making 1 or 2+ trips a day and getting their 2 fish each time, I've never witnessed it - I'm sure some people do. I'd be curious to see *any* report that shows the recreation kill is "90percent of the striped bass kill".

If you saw what went on the last few years you would probably cry... The poaching was so bad that they flooded the market... There was several hundred LBS of dead bass floating in a harbor at one time because they couldnt get rid of the fish because black market was flooded... The blind eyes just thought of it as a fish kill... I cant tell you how often it happens, every single day, over and over...

http://www.nefsc.noaa.gov/sos/spsyn/...es/fig40_2.gif

Just look at the NOAA chart, what say do recs have about not raising the Comm catch???

Adam_777 · 08-15-2010, 07:16 PM

Again how do they estimate rec kills when they never get reported ? I'm not saying the numbers are right or wrong.Just trying to figure out how they can possibly estimate how many fish the rec angler kills.I can't think of any possible equation that would hold any weight ? The numbers just don't add up.The managers need to rework the entire system again.I know quite a few rec bass fisherman that are lucky to take 1 or 2 a year.Nevermind 1-2 twice a day.I've never seen that.Not saying it never happens.

CowHunter · 08-15-2010, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam_777

Again how do they estimate rec kills when they never get reported ? I'm not saying the numbers are right or wrong.Just trying to figure out how they can possibly estimate how many fish the rec angler kills.I can't think of any possible equation that would hold any weight ? The numbers just don't add up.The managers need to rework the entire system again.I know quite a few rec bass fisherman that are lucky to take 1 or 2 a year.Nevermind 1-2 twice a day.I've never seen that.Not saying it never happens.

I'm assuming they largely base it on the charter fleets catch that is reported, and I'm sure that the entire charter fleet isn't nowhere near the actual numbers.. Sometimes there are polls taken fro fisherman and averaged out... U think the guys doing the real numbers are being honest in catch numbers???
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Sea Dangles · 08-15-2010, 07:58 PM

Down in VA and NC most of the fishing is done by boat.Not much in the way of inshore fishing.Recently the pattern has the fish way offshore and the captain can either risk going over the fence or catching squat.Not much of a risk down there. They fill dumpsters daily with racks of rocks.I guess my point is access is more difficult without a boat,therefore the rec impact is somewhat limited.

animal · 08-15-2010, 08:10 PM

The rec catch will NEVER be tallied,even close to accurately.Even with the new licenses,say someone calls you at the end of the season,asks how you did?How many of you even know how many you've kept?
If you do know,will you answer honestly?
Most guys here seem to be for a 1 fish a day rec catch.These guys know that if they report lower numbers than they actually saw,maybe the regs would change towards that end.
On the other hand,you have noobs,and glory hounds,who,even though talking to a stranger,on the phone,that they will NEVER meet,will pad their numbers,and try to make themselves look like a killer.The system is effed,and will stay that way,in my opinion.

CowHunter · 08-15-2010, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

Down in VA and NC most of the fishing is done by boat.Not much in the way of inshore fishing.Recently the pattern has the fish way offshore and the captain can either risk going over the fence or catching squat.Not much of a risk down there. They fill dumpsters daily with racks of rocks.I guess my point is access is more difficult without a boat,therefore the rec impact is somewhat limited.

No it is all considered recreational catch.... Nowhere do charter catches get counted towards a commercial quota.... The bulk of the biomass stages down there, is concentrated and easy pickins... That's why those dumpsters are loaded every day... Who's counting those fish????

CowHunter · 08-15-2010, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by animal

The rec catch will NEVER be tallied,even close to accurately.Even with the new licenses,say someone calls you at the end of the season,asks how you did?How many of you even know how many you've kept?
If you do know,will you answer honestly?
Most guys here seem to be for a 1 fish a day rec catch.These guys know that if they report lower numbers than they actually saw,maybe the regs would change towards that end.
On the other hand,you have noobs,and glory hounds,who,even though talking to a stranger,on the phone,that they will NEVER meet,will pad their numbers,and try to make themselves look like a killer.The system is effed,and will stay that way,in my opinion.

Agreed it will never be tallied accurately... I think most people don't won't to be bothered with reporting their numbers though and the numbers reported will be much lower. People tend to be more lazy, forget, fall behind, and in the end don't report squat...
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

ivanputski · 08-15-2010, 11:30 PM

"On paper they deserve to raise the com quota to balance out the com vs recreational catch.... "

Imagine you have 2 small children... they are having an argument because one of them somehow has ten 2-liter bottles of soda, while the other one has one... there are two ways to solve the problem to make it equitable... you could reduce the amount of soda that the little bastard with 10 bottle has, or you could give the other kid 9 more bottles to make it fair... Either one would make it more equitable, but as a RESPONSIBLE parent, which solution would take into account the well being of the kids and their health? No kid needs 10 damn bottles of soda. you follow?

I am strictly rec... reduce the rec take to balance it out.