Will Obama pay a political price for his lies?

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Scott and detbuch, you keep stating that I'm advocating for equality of outcome. Not even close.

A made-up, hypothetical scenario. Lat's say it costs $500,000 to open a McDonalds. Let's say my friends were able to save that much. But all of a sudden, that $500k is wiped out to pay for catastrophic medical expenses. In that case, because of the specific event which they had no control over, let's assume there was a federal program that picked up that tab.

Now he has the $500k to open a McDonalds. I am not suggesting, in any way, that his success should be guaranteed. If the business fails because he is incompetent, or lazy, or because he blows the money betting on college football, or because a better businessman opens up a Burger King across the street, I would never say that society has a responsibility to provide him the wealth he could not acquire.

Say there are 2 identical famillies who want to open a McDonalds. Each family has squirreled away the $500k to pay the fees. Family A has an unforseen medical situation that wipes out their savings. I don't think that Family B 'deserves' the opportunity to open a McDonalds any more than family A does. I'd like to see them both have the same chance to succeed.

Opportunity. Not outcome.

See, your overlooking the pre-existing condition that people have, as you say, "zero control" over. The most obvious one in the case of your hypothetical scenario is that there are no two "identical" families. Unless by some rare twist identical twin brothers married identical twin sisters. But even in that event differences would occur through nature and nurture. So if it takes equal identity to create equal opportunity ... well, you get the picture.

But, if in your scenario what makes the families identical is that they both saved up $500k so that they both had the same financial opportunity to open a McDonalds, but one lost the money due to uncontrollable circumstances, it would only be "fair" for the rest of society to make the losing family whole by giving them a $500K gift from the rest of us . . . umm, that is problematic. Are you assuming that the rest of us have the "opportunity" to save $500K? What about the many somebodies that are born into families that lack such attitudes of thrift or potential to even earn that amount? What about the individual that didn't have the "opportunity" to earn the $500K due to family background, negative inherited capabilities, and so on that he had no control over? If he/she wanted to open a McDonalds should the rest of us give him/her the $500K gift? Are you saying that if we all put in a few extra bucks into some anti-catastrophic fund it would cover the massive potential of payouts to "deserving" recipients to do what they wish but are not capable because of things they had no control over.

And if the federal gvt. owns this insurance fund, will it even restrict itself to whatever minimal enumerations you limit it to which you think would make this fund fair and operable? The evidence is, as you might say, "irrefutable" that it wouldn't. This sort of "fairness," of so-called "equal opportunity" is what gives the federal leviathan the legitimacy to totally control our lives.

[Jim in CT]

Detbuch, you guys are very, very skilled (and fair, by the way) at playing devil's advocate. As you say, no 2 situations are identical, and my lefty pie-in-the-sky collecticivist notion here would entail a lot of difficulties. All I can counter with, all I have, is this...everything that is wonderful, is hard. Sometimes, you do what's right even if it's really hard, even if it can never be perfect. This feels like one of those things to me, but reasonable people can certainly disagree...

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Detbuch, you guys are very, very skilled (and fair, by the way) at playing devil's advocate. As you say, no 2 situations are identical, and my lefty pie-in-the-sky collecticivist notion here would entail a lot of difficulties. All I can counter with, all I have, is this...everything that is wonderful, is hard. Sometimes, you do what's right even if it's really hard, even if it can never be perfect. This feels like one of those things to me, but reasonable people can certainly disagree...

So, being hard, overcoming obstacles, losses, tragedies must be beautiful. Are they less beautiful if government makes it easier? Is the beauty lost if the difficulty is lost?

We don't disagree a whole lot. Mostly on one small item--the fundamental damage done to founding principles when the federal government goes beyond its enumerated powers to "solve" societal or individual problems. It has never been a secret what happens to moral or governing principles when they are violated and then accepted. That it not only changes the rule for a temporary "good," it sets a precedent for constant changes so that the principle is eventually lost.

Your Catholicism, I think, would agree with your political conservatism on that point. Maybe not.

How about the greatest poet/writer in the English language, Shakespeare? In his play, The Merchant of Venice when Portia in disguise is acting as a judge is asked "To do a great right, do a little wrong," she replies,

"'Twill be recorded for a precedent,
And many an error by the same example
Will rush into the State. It cannot be."

The great right you wish to be accomplished by establishing a way to help individuals in time of catastrophic need is noble. Many have done such great things. I think even your Catholicism, which has charity as a prime action, would agree that its fundamental faiths and structures must not be subverted for charity. That no charity should take from an individual his responsibility toward church and God and shift it to the State. We have fundamental founding principles that not only place the burden of responsibility for their own lives on individuals, but prevent the State from usurping those responsibilities to grow its own power. The Federal Government was founded to have no business in charity. That was left to individuals and their local and state governments. That was an extremely important restriction. Without it, individual sovereignty is lost. That cannot be overstated.

Individuals and local governments have always been involved with charity. They are less so now that the central government has taken on so much of what individuals and their States had done. You have argued against what has become of this country because of it. Go ahead and be charitable. Campaign in your city, county, State, to help when individuals can't.

Just don't insist that the federal government do it. That is the little difference between us.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by detbuch

But, if in your scenario what makes the families identical is that they both saved up $500k so that they both had the same financial opportunity to open a McDonalds, but one lost the money due to uncontrollable circumstances, it would only be "fair" for the rest of society to make the losing family whole by giving them a $500K gift from the rest of us . . . umm, that is problematic.

ya think?....

btw Jim, this has not at all been "playing devil's advocate"...it's pointing out the obvious problems with your logic, it "feels" right to you in your scenario, the government simply writing a check to your friends in this case...but applied broadly, given what we know about the propensities of those that you'd like to see administering this and the Pandora's box you'd be opening...it makes no sense...but nothing else makes sense....come up with a catchy name for it and I'm sure it will pass......" The Elimination of Life's Hardships And Equal Opportunity(but not Outcomes) Through Government Benevolence Act of 2013"...need a jingle that sort of rhymes too...that always works..."when things get bad...we'll pick up the tab"

Originally Posted by Jim in CT
All I can counter with, all I have, is this...everything that is wonderful, is hard. Sometimes, you do what's right even if it's really hard, even if it can never be perfect.


looking to the government to write a check..is not "hard"...it's actually the "easy" solution...which is why it's so popular....holding fund raisers, rallying a community and media, swallowing your pride and "asking for help", calling charities and corporations and others who have interests in these types of situations ...is "hard"...but often prove wildly successful