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Old 11-01-2013, 08:05 AM   #1
Jim in CT
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Will Obama pay a political price for his lies?

As I have stated before, I liked one of the 'stated' goals of Obamacare, to level the playing field, so to speak. Many of us are lucky enough to have been born healthy. But we all know people that suffer with lifelong ailments, which occurred through no fault of their own, and which can be catastrophically expensive.

No one deserves to be so penalized for being born with chronic medical conditions. And while I'm no expert on the economics of healthcare, it seems fair to me that we could all pay an "average" amount into some pool. Those who are healthy might never need that money. Those that are sick through no fault of their own, could have the security of knnowing that they won't lose everything because of something they had no control over.

I don't know if Obamacare was the best way to accomplish this, but I liked the idea of that.

Anyway, the fact is, Obama was unbelievably dishonest when he repeatedly stated that if you liked your plan, you could keep it - "period". There was no ambiguity or qualifying limitations in his statements. Millions and millions of Americans will have an experience that's very different from what he promised.

Many folks who currently pay a small premium for basic, catastrophic coverage...will see huge premium increases as they move to plans that have the mandated bells and whistles. My bet is that people will remember that next November. Many people will pay hundreds of dollars more a month.

You could argue that as a sociaty, we are better off if everyone has more comprehensive coverage, and that as a society, human decency dictates that we all pay a share to help the small number of Americans with chronic health issues. Unfortunately for Obama, he chose not to sell it that way, and he deserves the shellacking that he's getting right now.
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:55 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
I don't know if Obamacare was the best way to accomplish this, but I liked the idea of that.
That is exactly the point of adverse selection and why the HCB has an individual mandate.

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Anyway, the fact is, Obama was unbelievably dishonest when he repeatedly stated that if you liked your plan, you could keep it - "period". There was no ambiguity or qualifying limitations in his statements. Millions and millions of Americans will have an experience that's very different from what he promised.
Well, the Administration made public the fact that many would see a change back in 2010...it was reported by FOX News.

I don't think it's dishonesty but rather over-simplification, he's speaking to the vast majority versus the minority. The topic is complex enough...

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Many folks who currently pay a small premium for basic, catastrophic coverage...will see huge premium increases as they move to plans that have the mandated bells and whistles. My bet is that people will remember that next November. Many people will pay hundreds of dollars more a month.
While some of the minimum coverage provisions may go over the line (should a 70 year old woman have to pay for birth control?) a lot of the inexpensive individual plans really didn't provide very much. Even those for catastrophic situations tend to have high deductibles and low limits.

In economic terms I'd be willing to wager that those plans look closer to uninsured than those with real coverage.

If this is a real problem or not ultimately will come down to the individual States to run effective exchanges.

-spence
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Old 11-01-2013, 11:07 AM   #3
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That is exactly the point of adverse selection and why the HCB has an individual mandate.


Well, the Administration made public the fact that many would see a change back in 2010...it was reported by FOX News.

I don't think it's dishonesty but rather over-simplification, he's speaking to the vast majority versus the minority. The topic is complex enough...


While some of the minimum coverage provisions may go over the line (should a 70 year old woman have to pay for birth control?) a lot of the inexpensive individual plans really didn't provide very much. Even those for catastrophic situations tend to have high deductibles and low limits.

In economic terms I'd be willing to wager that those plans look closer to uninsured than those with real coverage.

If this is a real problem or not ultimately will come down to the individual States to run effective exchanges.

-spence
"Well, the Administration made public the fact that many would see a change back in 2010"

Do you have any further info on that? I'm not being a smart-azz, just wondering. Because I keep seeing video footage of Obama saying with zero ambiguity, that if you like your plan, you can keep it - "peeriod". He aded the word "period" at the end on multiple occasions, and you and I both know what he was trying to convey there. He might as well have said "read my lips".

"I don't think it's dishonesty but rather over-simplification, he's speaking to the vast majority versus the minority. The topic is complex enough..."

I'd say you are being a bit too kind. There is an administration memo, dated in 2010, that said that 40% - 70% of those on individual plans, would lose current coverage. That's not remotely similar to anything I have heard Obama say in public. That memo, seems to suggest that Obama had to know that what he was saying in order to sell the law to the public, was not remotely true.

You call it a small oversight. It's millions and millions of Americans who will br required to pay a lot more (for more coverage, to be fair). We'll see in the coming months if Americans are as forgiving as you of Obama's "over simplification" of the impact.

Personally, I think this will clobber the Democrats in 2014. But I was 100% wrong on what I thought would happen in 2008.

Also Spence, what about the fact that Obama said the "average" family would save $2500 a year? Whose premiums are decreasing by that much? And for similar coverage?? I'm not heariing about reductions across the board...
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Old 11-01-2013, 12:03 PM   #4
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Do you have any further info on that?
http://www.hhs.gov/news/press/2010pr...20100614e.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/he...1HhI8W1bg&_r=0

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I'd say you are being a bit too kind.
Considering how much difficulty Obama has had promoting the HCB it's par for the course.

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Personally, I think this will clobber the Democrats in 2014. But I was 100% wrong on what I thought would happen in 2008.
Depends, but I'll bet that once the "I was booted off my coverage and premiums went up" stories are replaced with "I lost my job and no preexisting conditions means I get my cancer medication" stories come forth people may quickly forget a shaky launch.

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Also Spence, what about the fact that Obama said the "average" family would save $2500 a year? Whose premiums are decreasing by that much? And for similar coverage?? I'm not heariing about reductions across the board...
There was a story about the economist who was advising Obama in 2008 who said Obama got the talking point wrong. The $2500 figure was total health related expenses rather than directly off the premium.

-spence
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Old 11-01-2013, 01:11 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by spence View Post
http://www.hhs.gov/news/press/2010pr...20100614e.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/he...1HhI8W1bg&_r=0


Considering how much difficulty Obama has had promoting the HCB it's par for the course.


Depends, but I'll bet that once the "I was booted off my coverage and premiums went up" stories are replaced with "I lost my job and no preexisting conditions means I get my cancer medication" stories come forth people may quickly forget a shaky launch.


There was a story about the economist who was advising Obama in 2008 who said Obama got the talking point wrong. The $2500 figure was total health related expenses rather than directly off the premium.

-spence
Spence is this guy , ever , in your mind, responsible for anything that comes out if his mouth??
He is either the most incompetent president ever or a pathalogical lier.
I believe your saying he isn't a lier .
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Old 11-01-2013, 01:11 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by spence View Post
http://www.hhs.gov/news/press/2010pr...20100614e.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/he...1HhI8W1bg&_r=0


Considering how much difficulty Obama has had promoting the HCB it's par for the course.


Depends, but I'll bet that once the "I was booted off my coverage and premiums went up" stories are replaced with "I lost my job and no preexisting conditions means I get my cancer medication" stories come forth people may quickly forget a shaky launch.


There was a story about the economist who was advising Obama in 2008 who said Obama got the talking point wrong. The $2500 figure was total health related expenses rather than directly off the premium.

-spence
Here is the first line from your first link...

"The U.S. Departments of Health and Human Services, Labor and Treasury today issued a new regulation that makes good on President Obama’s promise that Americans who like their health plan can keep it."

I think people could argue that Obama's promise, that we could keep the plans if we liked them, is a false promise. If Obama says that we can keep our existing plans, but upwards of 70% of those in individual plans cannot keep their plan, then Obama's statement is demonstrably false. All Obama had to do, was say "if your plan meets the new minimum standards, you can keep it. If not, you will move to a new plan that increases your coverage at an increased cost". I don't think his mis-statement was accidental. Because if people knew what the impact was going to be, I don't think the bill would have passed.

The ironic thing, again, is that I respect the goal of spreeading those long-term, chronic costs among people who are lucky enough to be healthy. But the way Obama went about it, may cost him.

"I'll bet that once the "I was booted off my coverage and premiums went up" stories are replaced with "I lost my job and no preexisting conditions means I get my cancer medication" stories come forth people may quickly forget a shaky launch."

You may well be right. But I'm sure that the number of healthy people whose premiums will skyrocket, dwarfs the number of sick people who will be better off.

"The $2500 figure was total health related expenses rather than directly off the premium. "

Fair enough. How is the average family saving $200 a month on healthcare expenses? That's very, very difficult for me to accept. Healthcare costs move in one direction, up. Maybe Obama assumed that we could all go work for the teachers unions, in which case I'd believe that my out-of-pocket healthcare expenses would go down by $200 a month!

Have a good weekend Spence, hope your kids enjoyed Halloween.
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Old 11-01-2013, 01:29 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
Here is the first line from your first link...

"The U.S. Departments of Health and Human Services, Labor and Treasury today issued a new regulation that makes good on President Obama’s promise that Americans who like their health plan can keep it."

I think people could argue that Obama's promise, that we could keep the plans if we liked them, is a false promise. If Obama says that we can keep our existing plans, but upwards of 70% of those in individual plans cannot keep their plan, then Obama's statement is demonstrably false. All Obama had to do, was say "if your plan meets the new minimum standards, you can keep it. If not, you will move to a new plan that increases your coverage at an increased cost". I don't think his mis-statement was accidental. Because if people knew what the impact was going to be, I don't think the bill would have passed.

The ironic thing, again, is that I respect the goal of spreeading those long-term, chronic costs among people who are lucky enough to be healthy. But the way Obama went about it, may cost him.

"I'll bet that once the "I was booted off my coverage and premiums went up" stories are replaced with "I lost my job and no preexisting conditions means I get my cancer medication" stories come forth people may quickly forget a shaky launch."

You may well be right. But I'm sure that the number of healthy people whose premiums will skyrocket, dwarfs the number of sick people who will be better off.

"The $2500 figure was total health related expenses rather than directly off the premium. "

Fair enough. How is the average family saving $200 a month on healthcare expenses? That's very, very difficult for me to accept. Healthcare costs move in one direction, up. Maybe Obama assumed that we could all go work for the teachers unions, in which case I'd believe that my out-of-pocket healthcare expenses would go down by $200 a month!

Have a good weekend Spence, hope your kids enjoyed Halloween.
Jim, it sounds to me like you're just quibbling. You don't seem to have much against Obamacare, you just don't like the lies, and in the end it will cost the Dems politically. If Obmacare is a good thing, then the Dems are to be admired for their courage and willingness to lose votes.
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Old 11-01-2013, 01:39 PM   #8
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Jim, it sounds to me like you're just quibbling. You don't seem to have much against Obamacare, you just don't like the lies, and in the end it will cost the Dems politically. If Obmacare is a good thing, then the Dems are to be admired for their courage and willingness to lose votes.
I am not necessarily saying I think Obamacare is a good thing, not at all.

I am saying, that it seems fair and decent to me, that we have some risk-sharing mechanism where healthy people (who could get sick at any time) subsidize sick people in some way. If we could accomplish that without the federal government being involved, I would prefer that. I know that Catholic hospitals (which I donate to) will treat folks regardless of their ability to pay. So we do have some of that. But maybe we could level the playing field a bit more?

I don't think anyone should endure a lifelong financial burden for something they have zero control over. Nor do I think that healthy people 'deserve' the lifelong financial windfall that comes with being healthy.

I am not talking about health expenses that are within one's control...if you choose to smoke and get lung cancer, I don't want you reaching into my pocket.

I'm not saying I like Obamacare. But I guess I am saying that the strict libertarian view on this, seems a bit callous to me.

Maybe I'm not saying anything, I don't know.
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Old 11-01-2013, 02:04 PM   #9
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Fair enough. How is the average family saving $200 a month on healthcare expenses? That's very, very difficult for me to accept. Healthcare costs move in one direction, up. Maybe Obama assumed that we could all go work for the teachers unions, in which case I'd believe that my out-of-pocket healthcare expenses would go down by $200 a month!
The interesting thing is that premiums through the exchanges are actually LOWER than anticipated...We'll see come spring when the CBO updates their projections what long-term impact this really would have, but it's a positive sign.

-spence
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Old 11-01-2013, 04:19 PM   #10
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http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapoth...der-obamacare/

So these 93 million that were projected to lose their coverage, by the administration, in 2010 should be able to keep their doctors? Sounds like he is either not in touch with how the real world operates or he lied?
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Old 11-01-2013, 06:40 PM   #11
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[QUOTE=Jackbass;1019986

So these 93 million that were projected to lose their coverage, by the administration, in 2010 should be able to keep their doctors?[/QUOTE]

How will others keep Doctor when insurance companies like United Health Care are dropping 10-15% 0f their Doctors nationwide? In addition, just like with Medicare, Doctors will drop out and not take the insurance. The good ones have enough patients that they don't need to take insurance they don't want.

A friend of mine an, internist/infectious disease specialist, gave me a peek into the future. He no longer takes any insurance, period. He has 22 patients that pay him $20,000/yr and he is available to them 24/7. He's happy making $400,000/yr without all the paper work and it's costs. Just sayin, there will be all kinds of things like this that will limit the # of doctors available and increase appointment times.

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Old 11-01-2013, 09:24 PM   #12
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I am not necessarily saying I think Obamacare is a good thing, not at all.

I didn't think you did. I was just baiting you to bring you out into a wider discussion. To delve into more than the economics and feasibility of it. Which, to a brief extent, you did.

I am saying, that it seems fair and decent to me, that we have some risk-sharing mechanism where healthy people (who could get sick at any time) subsidize sick people in some way.

That is an economic consideration that needs to be worked out after the decision to implement such a mechanism. The initial stage involves the fairness of forcing people to share in something they don't wish to do. And it involves who decides. It involves PRINCIPLES of fairness and decency and coercion and liberty. Collectivist societies have little problem deciding and implementing such mechanisms, and the cost, for such societies, is secondary, or even less in importance. Consider in what kind of society you live in, or wish to live in, before you decide what kind of mechanism creates the subsidies and who, or what part of your society decides.

If we could accomplish that without the federal government being involved, I would prefer that.

I agree with that. Further, I believe it is beyond preference, but a necessity that the federal government stay out of mandating, decision making, and the mechanics of how it works. I believe, not just because of constitutionality, that the federal gvt. would be far more effective and less costly to run if it stuck to its constitutional limitations. The all expansive role it plays in our lives and the massive and expanding size of its bureaucracy, are absolute prescriptions for failure, for snafus, breakdowns, constant need of repair and reform, not to speak of the accompanying dictatorial methods required to operate as it does. How less likely a Benghazi incident would be if the federal gvt. were only involved with its constitutional duties. The time, resources, money, effort, systemic planning involved in managing a myriad of duties is far more costly and susceptible to failure compared to the focus on more limited objectives and their financing. Benghazi is a constitutional federal responsibility. More attention paid to it than on nonconstitutional objectives would auger more success in eliminating such tragedies.

I was amazed how the government's prescription for making General Motors successful was to downsize it, to eliminate two of its car lines, renegotiate union contracts and pension liabilities so that they were affordable, yet it couldn't look in the mirror and see that it needed to do the same thing. So GM is now financially viable, mean and lean heading toward a future of success--so long as it stays the course of fiscal responsibility and remains a competitive size. The federal gvt. on the other hand is a bureaucratic mess, verging on the bankruptcy it bailed GM out of, failing on many "small" missions while it tries to gather larger and more expansive ones--as was GM before it employed the government prescription.


I know that Catholic hospitals (which I donate to) will treat folks regardless of their ability to pay. So we do have some of that. But maybe we could level the playing field a bit more?

Yeah, and the Obamacare mandate on contraceptives may mean that those hospitals will either have to abandon a core belief or abandon the wonderful charitable work. I haven't followed that--maybe that has been favorably resolved?

And I strongly believe we would have much more of that kind of charity if mandated federal "help" to the needy were eliminated and left to local governments and private concerns. That has always been an American tradition which has been dampened by government takeover of charity. That has "leveled the playing field" but dampened the natural human spirit of kindness, compassion, and charity. I think that has even contributed to an expansion of cruelty, violence, and lack of human empathy in our society.


I don't think anyone should endure a lifelong financial burden for something they have zero control over. Nor do I think that healthy people 'deserve' the lifelong financial windfall that comes with being healthy.

I am not talking about health expenses that are within one's control...if you choose to smoke and get lung cancer, I don't want you reaching into my pocket.

Charitable help exists even outside of Catholic charities--there are actual charities that can be applied to for help by the needy and to whom hospitals can refer patients who are unable to pay. I do think that those who are more conscious of health maintenance and practice it (which BTW can be costly) do deserve a financial break for their effort

I'm not saying I like Obamacare. But I guess I am saying that the strict libertarian view on this, seems a bit callous to me.

Maybe I'm not saying anything, I don't know.
Yeah, you are saying something. You are a very fair and decent man. Your heart is very much in the right place and you have good things to say about most issues. I don't know what a libertarian is, nor a strict one. So many say they are libertarian but disagree on much. If the core value that all subscribe to is liberty with its cognate of responsibility, I don't thing that portion is callous. I think it is that portion that creates the wealth, and innovation, and distribution of both in society at large. What may seem compassionate, if doled out by a dispassionate distant monopolizing central power, can be destructive of the spirit that informs that portion.

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Old 11-02-2013, 07:11 AM   #13
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Good debate as usual detbuch. My fear is that in the absence of government programs, more sick people will suffer than I am comfortable with. The government programs, however, must be well-run, and our federal government doesn't do much well.

Some famous person said something to the effect of "that government is best which governs the least". I subscribe to that. One of the limited things that I'd prefer that the government attempt to do, is help people, especially those who are suffering through no fault of their own.

There are a lot of people out there, doing incredible charitable work, but I'm assuming there's not enough voluntary charity to help everyone who needs it. I'm no expert on these things, but I wouldn't mind paying some tax dollars to help relieve the financial burden of our neighbors who weren't born as lucky as I was to be healthy.

My view on a strict libertarian is someone who believes everyone should be left to their own devices. I always found that to be self-centered.

Thanks for the kind words.
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Old 11-02-2013, 08:39 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT View Post
"The U.S. Departments of Health and Human Services, Labor and Treasury today issued a new regulation that makes good on President Obama’s promise that Americans who like their health plan can keep it."
I still have my health plan. No cancellation letter, so yes, they did make good on that promise.

Its not their fault that people with sketchy cheap plans are getting told they're getting cancelled by their health insurance company. It was the health insurance company that made that decision. Not the government.

Happy to see some of these #^&#^&#^&#^&ty PPO's that have been floating around finally going down the tube.

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Old 11-02-2013, 08:43 AM   #15
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Obama could put a gun to the head of any republican & pull the trigger on national TV and the #^&#^&#^&#^&ing liberal Moonbats would still worship him.
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Old 11-02-2013, 08:45 AM   #16
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There are a lot of people out there, doing incredible charitable work, but I'm assuming there's not enough voluntary charity to help everyone who needs it. I'm no expert on these things, but I wouldn't mind paying some tax dollars to help relieve the financial burden of our neighbors who weren't born as lucky as I was to be healthy.

My view on a strict libertarian is someone who believes everyone should be left to their own devices. I always found that to be self-centered.
should probably start with a pretty good definition...like most things there is a spectrum...there is in fact "libertarian socialism"..I assume a true libertarian socialist would agree that he may and is free to "reject capitalism and private ownership of the means of production, instead advocating their common or cooperative ownership and management" but not force that ideaology on others through government force..

I think you confuse "left to their own devices" with a desire to be "free" from the "initiation of force" from government....I think a libertarian would tell you that charities would benefit far more in terms of charitable works and contributions if the individual, "left to their own devices", was working more for their own benefit and those that they associate with and less an effort to support the machinations of a behemoth central government, the government that you would like to have dole out only what charity is necessary and to only those who need it has sufficiently proven itself unable to do so in any responsible or sustainable way....this concept that without government there to provide, many would be left to wallow is something that I've heard many times from our President

"President Obama today delivered an impassioned attack on what he called Republicans’ “cramped narrow conception” of liberty, during a fiery speech at a campaign fundraiser in Vermont.

Liberty is the value of individuals to have agency (control over their own actions). Different conceptions of liberty articulate the relationship of individuals to society in different ways— these conceptions relate to life under a social contract, existence in an imagined state of nature, and related to the active exercise of freedom and rights as essential to liberty. Understanding liberty involves how we imagine the individual's roles and responsibilities in society in relation to concepts of free will and determinism, which involves the larger domain of metaphysics.

Classical liberal conceptions of liberty typically consist of the freedom of individuals from outside compulsion or coercion, also known as negative liberty. This conception of liberty, which coincides with the libertarian point-of-view, suggests that people should, must, and ought to behave according to their own free will, and take responsibility for their actions, while in contrast, Social liberal conceptions of (positive liberty) liberty place an emphasis upon social structure and agency and is therefore directed toward ensuring egalitarianism.


Egalitarianism (from French égal, meaning "equal")—or, rarely, equalitarianism[1][2]—is a trend of thought that favors equality for all people. Egalitarian doctrines maintain that all humans are equal in fundamental worth or social status, according to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.[3] The Cultural theory of risk holds egalitarianism as defined by (1) a negative attitude towards rules and principles, and (2) a positive attitude towards group decision-making, with fatalism termed as its opposite.[4] According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, the term has two distinct definitions in modern English.[5] It is defined either as a political doctrine that all people should be treated as equals and have the same political, economic, social, and civil rights[6] or as a social philosophy advocating the removal of economic inequalities among people or the decentralisation of power . Some sources define egalitarianism as the point of view that equality reflects the natural state of humanity.

so you see the.... "positive conception of liberty"(conveniently created) is not liberty at all but socialism which is the polar opposite of "negative conception of liberty"(mis-named by the creators of the positive conception of liberty) and the two are not compatible which explains the ultimate problem that we have currently in our society....the most successful dictators on the planet historically have built their causes on the "positive conceptions of various "liberties", it's a ruse ...and it works"



Before an electrified crowd of 4500 – his largest of the campaign to date – Obama framed the 2012 campaign as a stark choice between two diametrically opposed political and economic philosophies.

“Their philosophy is simple: you’re on your own,” Obama said of the GOP.

“You’re on your own if you’re out of work, can’t find a job. Tough luck you’re on your own. You don’t have health care: That’s your problem. You’re on your own. If you’re born into poverty, lift yourself up with your own bootstraps, even if you don’t have boots. You’re on your own. They believe that’s how America is advanced,” he said.

“That’s the cramped narrow conception they have of liberty, and they are wrong,” he said. “They are wrong.”


under Obama's "warped concept of liberty"....we give government the excuse to take and dole out and grow beyond it's necessity and means as it pleases all on the assumption that individuals are incapable of taking care of themselves and those around them when it is fact proven time and again that it is government that is ill equipped to preform this task(I think you have pointed this out repeatedly)...pretty sure the Founding Fathers pointed this out too...a long time ago when the concept of libertarianism was hatched

Libertarianism (Latin: liber, "free")[1] is a set of related political philosophies that uphold freedom as the highest political end.[2][3] This includes emphasis on the primacy of individual liberty,[4][5] political freedom, and voluntary association. It is the antonym to authoritarianism.[6] Different schools of libertarianism disagree over whether the state should exist and, if so, to what extent.[7] While minarchists propose a state limited in scope to preventing aggression, theft, breach of contract and fraud, anarchists advocate its complete elimination as a political system.[7][8][9][10][11][12][13] While certain libertarian currents are supportive of laissez-faire capitalism and private property rights, such as in land and natural resources, others reject capitalism and private ownership of the means of production, instead advocating their common or cooperative ownership and management[14][15][16][17] (see libertarian socialism).

In the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, libertarianism is defined as the moral view that agents initially fully own themselves and have certain moral powers to acquire property rights in external things.[18] Libertarian philosopher Roderick Long defines libertarianism as "any political position that advocates a radical redistribution of power from the coercive state to voluntary associations of free individuals", whether "voluntary association" takes the form of the free market or of communal co-operatives.[19] The U.S. Libertarian Party promotes individual sovereignty and seeks an end to coercion, advocating a government that is limited to protecting individuals from the initiation of force.[20


btw...if you "wouldn't mind paying some tax dollars to help relieve the financial burden of our neighbors who weren't born as lucky as I was to be healthy"...that should be something that you are free to do as often as you wish(libertarian concept) but should not result in your neighbors being forced to do so(other half of the libertarian concept) and wouldn't it make more sense to give those dollars directly to a hospital or charity(libertarian concept) that doesn't have a multi, multi bazillion dollar website that doesn't work?????(evidence for the basis of libertarian concept)

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Old 11-02-2013, 08:46 AM   #17
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I still have my health plan. No cancellation letter, so yes, they did make good on that promise.

Its not their fault that people with sketchy cheap plans are getting told they're getting cancelled by their health insurance company. It was the health insurance company that made that decision. Not the government.

Happy to see some of these #^&#^&#^&#^&ty PPO's that have been floating around finally going down the tube.
Jim, this would be "self-centered"
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Old 11-02-2013, 11:07 AM   #18
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How will others keep Doctor when insurance companies like United Health Care are dropping 10-15% 0f their Doctors nationwide? In addition, just like with Medicare, Doctors will drop out and not take the insurance. The good ones have enough patients that they don't need to take insurance they don't want.

A friend of mine an, internist/infectious disease specialist, gave me a peek into the future. He no longer takes any insurance, period. He has 22 patients that pay him $20,000/yr and he is available to them 24/7. He's happy making $400,000/yr without all the paper work and it's costs. Just sayin, there will be all kinds of things like this that will limit the # of doctors available and increase appointment times.

been seeing much more of this..middle class screwery again
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Old 11-02-2013, 12:22 PM   #19
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How will others keep Doctor when insurance companies like United Health Care are dropping 10-15% 0f their Doctors nationwide?
I believe that statistic only applies to Medicare Advantage, which isn't expected to last. If those same doctors took Medicare they'd still be covered...

The funny thing about Medicare Advantage is that they basically bribe insurance companies to provide supplementary insurance. It costs the taxpayer more than regular Medicare.

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Old 11-02-2013, 12:36 PM   #20
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Obama could put a gun to the head of any republican & pull the trigger on national TV and the #^&#^&#^&#^&ing liberal Moonbats would still worship him.
Snort snort snort snort...

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Old 11-02-2013, 12:43 PM   #21
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I still have my health plan. No cancellation letter, so yes, they did make good on that promise.

Its not their fault that people with sketchy cheap plans are getting told they're getting cancelled by their health insurance company. It was the health insurance company that made that decision. Not the government.

Happy to see some of these #^&#^&#^&#^&ty PPO's that have been floating around finally going down the tube.
Yes, but those sketchy cheap plans were their sketchy cheap plans.

Ran across this today...

http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/20...obamacare.html

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Old 11-02-2013, 01:48 PM   #22
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I still have my health plan. No cancellation letter, so yes, they did make good on that promise.

Its not their fault that people with sketchy cheap plans are getting told they're getting cancelled by their health insurance company. It was the health insurance company that made that decision. Not the government.

Happy to see some of these #^&#^&#^&#^&ty PPO's that have been floating around finally going down the tube.
"did make good on that promise"

No, he didn't. Because I don't recall Obama saying that only you would get to keep your plan. If he had said that, he would have kept that promise. But what he said, was that everyone who liked their plan would be able to keep it. Likwid, if you still maintain that he kept that promise, you are far beyond help.

"It was the health insurance company that made that decision. Not the government."

Absolutely, 100% wrong. Obamacare included new minimum coverage limits that plans had to offer. Obamacare rendered many existing plans illegal. Thus, those plans were forced to non-renew their insureds. Try making that wrong! Get some facts before you start suggesting that Obama had no hand in this.

I don't feel ethically compelled to pay for Sandra Fluke's rubbers. If she wants to fornicate, she can do it on her own dime. Why stop at the birth control? If I have to pay for her condoms when the time is right, why not require me to pay for the dinner and the movie (most likely a vegan dinner followed by a Michael Moore flick) that set the tone for the evening's festivities?
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Old 11-02-2013, 01:54 PM   #23
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btw...if you "wouldn't mind paying some tax dollars to help relieve the financial burden of our neighbors who weren't born as lucky as I was to be healthy"...that should be something that you are free to do as often as you wish(libertarian concept) but should not result in your neighbors being forced to do so(other half of the libertarian concept) and wouldn't it make more sense to give those dollars directly to a hospital or charity(libertarian concept) that doesn't have a multi, multi bazillion dollar website that doesn't work?????(evidence for the basis of libertarian concept)
What I'm saying is that if EFFECTIVE EFFICIENT government programs can fill the inevitable gaps that charities could not fix, I'm OK with that. I am not saying that Obamacare fits that description.
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Old 11-02-2013, 02:02 PM   #24
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Jim, this would be "self-centered"
I live in a house, therefore there is no such thing as homelessness.

I have a job, therefore the unemployment rate must be exactly 0.0%

I am bald, therefore I cannot fathom the existence of barber shops. Don't they know that no one needs their services?
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Old 11-02-2013, 02:11 PM   #25
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Absolutely, 100% wrong. Obamacare included new minimum coverage limits that plans had to offer. Obamacare rendered many existing plans illegal. Thus, those plans were forced to non-renew their insureds. Try making that wrong! Get some facts before you start suggesting that Obama had no hand in this.
Well, you're not really right either. The insurance companies make the decision to terminate the old plans. They can always adjust the plan to comply...or not make significant changes to grandfathered plans either. Certainly though the law is influencing the behavior.

Funny thing is the notices being reported aren't kicking people off insurance, they're to shift them onto other plans. I can't believe how the Right Wing media got this story so wrong????

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I don't feel ethically compelled to pay for Sandra Fluke's rubbers. If she wants to fornicate, she can do it on her own dime. Why stop at the birth control? If I have to pay for her condoms when the time is right, why not require me to pay for the dinner and the movie (most likely a vegan dinner followed by a Michael Moore flick) that set the tone for the evening's festivities?
I thought Rush Limbaugh's Sandra Fluke remarks were some of the most ugly and vile things he's ever said...that you'd choose to parrot them surprises me. I actually thought you were better than that Jim.

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Old 11-02-2013, 02:28 PM   #26
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Well, you're not really right either. The insurance companies make the decision to terminate the old plans. They can always adjust the plan to comply...or not make significant changes to grandfathered plans either. Certainly though the law is influencing the behavior.

Funny thing is the notices being reported aren't kicking people off insurance, they're to shift them onto other plans. I can't believe how the Right Wing media got this story so wrong????


I thought Rush Limbaugh's Sandra Fluke remarks were some of the most ugly and vile things he's ever said...that you'd choose to parrot them surprises me. I actually thought you were better than that Jim.

-spence
"They can always adjust the plan to comply"

Yes, they can. But then it's not the same plan. And the ability to keep the current plan, is what Obama promised. You're not spinning his way out of that demonstrable lie.

"the notices being reported aren't kicking people off insurance, they're to shift them onto other plans"

Wrong. The regs are rendering the current plans illegal. And most folks can't get into a new Obamacare plan, because with 3.5 years and a jillion dollars,. the website they came up with is a POS. Obamacare is thus increasing the number of uninsured, which is pretty ironic.

Sandra Fluke is a parasite and a shameless skank. I'm not parroting Rush Limbaugh, whose show I have literally never heard. That I happen to agree with Rush on this topic does not mean I am parroting him, that's my own conclusion based on the empirical evidence.
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Old 11-02-2013, 04:51 PM   #27
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Wrong. The regs are rendering the current plans illegal. And most folks can't get into a new Obamacare plan, because with 3.5 years and a jillion dollars,. the website they came up with is a POS. Obamacare is thus increasing the number of uninsured, which is pretty ironic.
The changes aren't immediate...people aren't being kicked off and left with no insurance.

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Sandra Fluke is a parasite and a shameless skank. I'm not parroting Rush Limbaugh, whose show I have literally never heard. That I happen to agree with Rush on this topic does not mean I am parroting him, that's my own conclusion based on the empirical evidence.
Great minds must troll the same gutters then.

Why you'd call her a "shameless skank" is beyond me. Do you know ANYTHING about her personal life?

Perhaps you should run this one by your wife.

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Old 11-02-2013, 07:55 PM   #28
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What I'm saying is that if EFFECTIVE EFFICIENT government programs can fill the inevitable gaps that charities could not fix, I'm OK with that. I am not saying that Obamacare fits that description.
name one and what exactly are these "inevitable gaps"?

"CNN has been pondering what they call “a particularly tough few days at the White House.” “Four out of five Americans have little or no trust in their government to do anything right,” says chief political analyst Gloria Borger. “And now Obama probably feels the same way.” Our hearts go out to him, poor wee disillusioned thing. We are assured by the headline writers that the president was “unaware” of Obamacare’s website defects, and the NSA spying, and the IRS targeting of his political enemies, and the Justice Department bugging the Associated Press, and pretty much anything else you ask him about. But, as he put it, “nobody’s madder than me” at this shadowy rogue entity called the “Government of the United States” that’s running around pulling all this stuff. And, once he finds out who’s running this Government of the United States rogue entity, he’s gonna come down as hard on him as he did on that videomaker in California; he’s gonna send round the National Park Service SWAT team to teach that punk a lesson he won’t forget."

"But the fact remains that nowhere in the Western world has the governmentalization of health care been so incompetently introduced and required protection by such a phalanx of lies. Obamacare is not a left–right issue; it’s a fraud issue."

brilliant.. http://www.nationalreview.com/node/362922/print

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Old 11-03-2013, 07:48 AM   #29
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Why you'd call her a "shameless skank" is beyond me. Do you know ANYTHING about her personal life?

Perhaps you should run this one by your wife.

-spence
I know she wants to fornicate, and that she wants me to pay for it. That tells me everything I need to know about her.

My wife, who was captain of the Union college rugby team, would describe her in words that would get her booted off this site. If you are so simple-minded that you think that all women think exactly alike, you don't know much about women, do you? I went to church yesterday, and I saw many women who are vehemently opposed to everything Sandra Fluke stands for.
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Old 11-03-2013, 07:50 AM   #30
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name one and what exactly are these "inevitable gaps"?


brilliant.. http://www.nationalreview.com/node/362922/print
I personally know people who have had to sell their homes and rent crappy apartments because of medical bills. It should never, ever happen.
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