Credibility

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Trump (the president elect) and Mike Pence (the VP elect who was governor of Indiana at the time) worked with Carrier to keep those jobs.

"Trump did not save them either "

Yes he did. With Mike Pence, his VP. SO if Trump says "two plus two equals four", are you going to say he's wrong? Are you that partisan?

"he hadn't even been sworn in yet"

Which makes it more impressive to me that he took the time to do that which Obama was incapable of doing.

seems you misssed this part The state of Indiana vowed to give the company $7 million in tax incentives over a decade, and the company agreed to invest $16 million in keeping the company in the state.
"Obama admitted that he had no way of saving these job of course they are a private company "

Obama passed his "stimulus plan" that gave huge $$ to private companies like Solyndra. Not sure what you rpoint is.

ARRA's primary objective was to save existing jobs and create new ones as soon as possible. Other objectives were to provide temporary relief programs for those most affected by the recession and invest in infrastructure, education, health, and renewable energy.

[COLOR="blue"]the old Solyndra angle who need to put down the kool aid?? Overall, the agency has loaned $34.2 billion to a variety of businesses, under a program designed to speed up development of clean-energy technology. Companies have defaulted on $780 million of that — a loss rate of 2.28 percent. The agency also has collected $810 million in interest payments, putting the program $30 million in the black. again fact dont matter /COLOR]

WDMSO, you need to evaluate these things a bit more fairly. Not everything that's liberal is good, not everything that's conservative is evil. Put down the Kool Aid and think rationally.

hows this kool aid

CBO and JCT estimate that enacting the American Health Care Act would reduce federal deficits by $337 billion over the coming decade and increase the number of people who are uninsured by 24 million in 2026 relative to current law.

Coverage and Premiums
The number of people who are uninsured would increase by 18 million in the first new plan year following enactment of the bill. Later, after the elimination of the ACA’s expansion of Medicaid eligibility and of subsidies for insurance purchased through the ACA marketplaces, that number would increase to 27 million, and then to 32 million in 2026.
Premiums in the nongroup market (for individual policies purchased through the marketplaces or directly from insurers) would increase by 20 percent to 25 percent—relative to projections under current law—in the first new plan year following enactment. The increase would reach about 50 percent in the year following the elimination of the Medicaid expansion and the marketplace subsidies, and premiums would about double by 2026.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by wdmso

hows this kool aid

CBO and JCT estimate that enacting the American Health Care Act would reduce federal deficits by $337 billion over the coming decade and increase the number of people who are uninsured by 24 million in 2026 relative to current law.

Coverage and Premiums
The number of people who are uninsured would increase by 18 million in the first new plan year following enactment of the bill. Later, after the elimination of the ACA’s expansion of Medicaid eligibility and of subsidies for insurance purchased through the ACA marketplaces, that number would increase to 27 million, and then to 32 million in 2026.
Premiums in the nongroup market (for individual policies purchased through the marketplaces or directly from insurers) would increase by 20 percent to 25 percent—relative to projections under current law—in the first new plan year following enactment. The increase would reach about 50 percent in the year following the elimination of the Medicaid expansion and the marketplace subsidies, and premiums would about double by 2026.

Since there would be no mandate forcing people to get insurance or get taxed, there would be many who do not choose to get insured. Projections under current law would not account for the positive reaction of the market when choice, competition, and less regulation become part of insurance. CBO often does not get it right. Supposedly this is only the first step toward returning to market based insurance and away from totally government mandated, regulated, and greatly subsidized.

It's the freedom thing. In that direction. You know. Like you say. Things change. That's how the world works. Why bitch?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

hows this kool aid

CBO and JCT estimate that enacting the American Health Care Act would reduce federal deficits by $337 billion over the coming decade and increase the number of people who are uninsured by 24 million in 2026 relative to current law.

Coverage and Premiums
The number of people who are uninsured would increase by 18 million in the first new plan year following enactment of the bill. Later, after the elimination of the ACA’s expansion of Medicaid eligibility and of subsidies for insurance purchased through the ACA marketplaces, that number would increase to 27 million, and then to 32 million in 2026.
Premiums in the nongroup market (for individual policies purchased through the marketplaces or directly from insurers) would increase by 20 percent to 25 percent—relative to projections under current law—in the first new plan year following enactment. The increase would reach about 50 percent in the year following the elimination of the Medicaid expansion and the marketplace subsidies, and premiums would about double by 2026.

WDMSO, president-elect Trump and VP-elect Pence, brokered the deal that saved those jobs. You can't say it out loud because you can't admit Trump did something good.

Obama's stimulus bill was sold with the promise that it would keep unemployment below 8%. It didn't. Not even close. Unemployment went to 10%. He ws only off by a few million jobs.

I hate the GOP plan to replace Obamacare, as it stands now. I don't like taking insurance away from that many.

See? I can think for myself. Try it sometime.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I hate the GOP plan to replace Obamacare, as it stands now. I don't like taking insurance away from that many.

Do you believe that insurance should be given rather than bought? If insurance is given, why have insurance as an intermediary. Just directly give the health care instead of giving the insurance first. What's the point of health insurance if it is given rather than bought? Just have universal health care paid by government and get the whole thing over with. Bing, Bang, boom . . . done.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Do you believe that insurance should be given rather than bought? If insurance is given, why have insurance as an intermediary. Just directly give the health care instead of giving the insurance first. What's the point of health insurance if it is given rather than bought? Just have universal health care paid by government and get the whole thing over with. Bing, Bang, boom . . . done.

I believe healthcare should be available to those who can't secure it for themselves. Whether it's insurance or not, is irrelevant to me. I don't think there are huge numbers of poor people dying in the streets because they don't have healthcare. But there are some people not getting the treatment they deserve as Americans, and I don't like it.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I believe healthcare should be available to those who can't secure it for themselves. Whether it's insurance or not, is irrelevant to me. I don't think there are huge numbers of poor people dying in the streets because they don't have healthcare.

Wasn't that the case before Obamacare?

But there are some people not getting the treatment they deserve as Americans, and I don't like it.

If you believe that being an American means all Americans should be provided the same product by private businesses regardless of whether or not they can afford to pay for it, then you believe in socialism. And if you believe that healthcare is different than other products and should be delivered in that socialistic manner, then you should have no objection, should even support, universal healthcare paid for by government.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by detbuch

If you believe that being an American means all Americans should be provided the same product by private businesses regardless of whether or not they can afford to pay for it, then you believe in socialism. And if you believe that healthcare is different than other products and should be delivered in that socialistic manner, then you should have no objection, should even support, universal healthcare paid for by government.

"Wasn't that the case before Obamacare?"

According to liberals, yes.


"If you believe that being an American means all Americans should be provided the same product by private businesses regardless of whether or not they can afford to pay for it"

I didn't say anything close to that. I don't think I'm entitled to the same "stuff" (house, yacht, Cadillac health plan) that a wealthy CEO can buy for himself. Not everyone has the right to a private suite at Johns Hopkins or the Mayo Clinic, just as not everyone has the right to drive a Lexus and have a house on Nantucket. But according to my personal beliefs, everyone has the right to some minimum level of care and security.

"then you believe in socialism" I sure don't believe in pure libertarianism. I think we all have an obligation to provide a safety net to those who can't secure it for themselves. Is that a degree of socialism? Yep. Does that make me a socialist** like Bernie Sanders? Nope.

** for the sake of this argument, let's forget he owns three homes, proving that he's not even remotely the socialist he claims to be

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"Wasn't that the case before Obamacare?"

According to liberals, yes.

You believe that, before Obamacare, liberals thought healthcare was available to those who couldn't secure it for themselves and that huge numbers of poor people were not dying in the streets because they didn't have healthcare? Wonder, if that was the case, why they created Obamacare.

"If you believe that being an American means all Americans should be provided the same product by private businesses regardless of whether or not they can afford to pay for it"

I didn't say anything close to that. I don't think I'm entitled to the same "stuff" (house, yacht, Cadillac health plan) that a wealthy CEO can buy for himself. Not everyone has the right to a private suite at Johns Hopkins or the Mayo Clinic, just as not everyone has the right to drive a Lexus and have a house on Nantucket. But according to my personal beliefs, everyone has the right to some minimum level of care and security.

Again, wasn't that minimum level of care available to everyone before Obamacare?

"then you believe in socialism" I sure don't believe in pure libertarianism. I think we all have an obligation to provide a safety net to those who can't secure it for themselves. Is that a degree of socialism? Yep. Does that make me a socialist** like Bernie Sanders? Nope.

Again, didn't we have the healthcare safety net before Obamacare?

** for the sake of this argument, let's forget he owns three homes, proving that he's not even remotely the socialist he claims to be

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by detbuch

And if you believe that healthcare is different than other products and should be delivered in that socialistic manner, then you should have no objection, should even support, universal healthcare paid for by government.

I have no problem (no huge problem) with the govt getting involved to the extent that it tries to minimize the number of people who fall through the cracks. I don't want the govt within a hundred miles of my own healthcare, or that of my family. That's why I get up every day and go to a job that I don't particularly like, so that I don't have to depend on the govt. But it's better than nothing, for the people who have no alternative.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I have no problem (no huge problem) with the govt getting involved to the extent that it tries to minimize the number of people who fall through the cracks. I don't want the govt within a hundred miles of my own healthcare, or that of my family. That's why I get up every day and go to a job that I don't particularly like, so that I don't have to depend on the govt. But it's better than nothing, for the people who have no alternative.

I don't disagree. And I believe all of that was the case before Obamacare. As far as the numbers, too large for you, of those whose insurance will be taken away from them by the current GOP plan, no insurance will be "taken away." Insurance will be optional. Many may choose not to have it. That is probably the big number that the CBO says will not be covered. That will be a voluntary decision. The plan has its methods of making various types of insurance available to those in lower income brackets. Some of those methods will be removed over time as the economy improves and health care prices drop because of the overall tax and regulation policies which are instituted along with the impact of less expensive coverage. We shall see if the plan, after it has been amended and hammered out in debate in the House and Senate, then passed (if passed) works. Remember, it took three years to institute Obamacare after it was passed. This notion that the GOP plan should be ready and set to go RIGHT NOW is political demagoguery.

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

WDMSO, president-elect Trump and VP-elect Pence, brokered the deal that saved those jobs. You can't say it out loud because you can't admit Trump did something good.

Trump all the credit for Nothing

Obama's stimulus bill was sold with the promise that it would keep unemployment below 8%. It didn't. Not even close. Unemployment went to 10%. He ws only off by a few million jobs.

No credit for trying

I hate the GOP plan to replace Obamacare, as it stands now. I don't like taking insurance away from that many.

See? I can think for myself. Try it sometime.

Really Seems you hate the GOP plan with no mention of Tump promises but had let us know Obama failed ... thats thinking for your self all right

"We're gonna come up with a new plan that's going to be better health care for more people at a lesser cost," Trump

[scottw]

Originally Posted by wdmso

"We're gonna come up with a new plan that's going to be better health care for more people at a lesser cost," Trump

"We're gonna come up with a new plan that's going to be better health care for more people at a lesser cost," Obama, Reid, Pelosi, Schumer, etc.......

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by scottw

"We're gonna come up with a new plan that's going to be better health care for more people at a lesser cost," Obama, Reid, Pelosi, Schumer, etc.......

they did .. maybe you missed the last 8 years when the GOP refused to make needed changes voting to repeal and replace 51 time

But in thoses 8 years never formulated a plan to replace it

Trump: ‘Nobody knew that health care could be so complicated’


Amazing

[scottw]

Originally Posted by wdmso

they did ..

and it's a disaster unless you are enjoying free or heavily subsidized healthcare....like most social programs that are perpetually "underfunded"

it's one of the big messes that Trump inherited from Obama

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

they did .. maybe you missed the last 8 years when the GOP refused to make needed changes voting to repeal and replace 51 time

But in thoses 8 years never formulated a plan to replace it

Trump: ‘Nobody knew that health care could be so complicated’


Amazing

They did? Whose costs went down? Obama said his plan would lower costs $2500 a year for the average family. He said you could keep your doctor or your plan if you liked them. He also got sued by the Little Sisters of the Poor (and he lost in the Supreme Court) because his plan forced Christians to pay for elective abortions. Nice. Who cares about what the Bill Of Rights says about religious freedom?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Really Seems you hate the GOP plan with no mention of Tump promises but had let us know Obama failed ... thats thinking for your self all right

"We're gonna come up with a new plan that's going to be better health care for more people at a lesser cost," Trump

"Trump all the credit for Nothing "

Everything you said there is wrong. I didn't give Trump all the credit, I give him some, because he played a role. "For nothing" - they saved hundreds of jobs for working, blue collar Americans. To you, that's nothing, because you didn't vote for Trump. You are incapable of intellectual honesty.

"No credit for trying "

Obama spent almost a trillion dollars (which we had to borrow, naturally) on a stimulus plan that was a flop. Sure he tried. But he failed miserably, and that failure will cost us huge amounts of $$. But that doesn't bother you, because he has a (d) after his name. But every failure of Trump's, is something that bothers you to no end. We get it, we get it.

Trump hasn't gone back on hos healthcare promises yet, because that proposed bill is nowhere near becoming law. Let's see what it looks like when they are ready to pass it. If at that point it falls short of what he promised, I will be the first one to call him on that. Fair enough?

[scottw]

Originally Posted by wdmso

hows this kool aid

CBO and JCT estimate that enacting the American Health Care Act would reduce federal deficits by $337 billion over the coming decade and increase the number of people who are uninsured by 24 million in 2026 relative to current law.

Coverage and Premiums
The number of people who are uninsured would increase by 18 million in the first new plan year following enactment of the bill. Later, after the elimination of the ACA’s expansion of Medicaid eligibility and of subsidies for insurance purchased through the ACA marketplaces, that number would increase to 27 million, and then to 32 million in 2026.
Premiums in the nongroup market (for individual policies purchased through the marketplaces or directly from insurers) would increase by 20 percent to 25 percent—relative to projections under current law—in the first new plan year following enactment. The increase would reach about 50 percent in the year following the elimination of the Medicaid expansion and the marketplace subsidies, and premiums would about double by 2026.

just sayin'....

"The CBO has already revised its projections of enrollment in Obamacare’s exchanges several times. They’ll have to revise them again, because their current (March 2016) baseline predicts that exchange enrollment will skyrocket to 18 million by 2018. There’s, in fact, no evidence that exchange enrollment will be significantly higher than current levels going forward, given rising premiums and a worsening risk pool."