Charlottesville

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Nazi/Neo Nazi?

Is that what we should be focusing on here.

How about Nazis/Not Nazis

I think I'm going to invent a new word:

Notzis - Its what you call a bunch of white people, gathered in a public place, that you go to protest for being Nazis....but then find out......they're Not

[PaulS]

Sorry, not following. So the neo nazis where not nazis so all is good w/our President's comments?

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Sorry, not following. So the neo nazis where not nazis so all is good w/our President's comments?

Obviously you're not following, you're still on last weeks conversation. we started talking about the Boston events. Probably should be a separate thread, but you know how things roll here.

[PaulS]

I usually don't look on nights or weekends so I fall behind.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Do you have the same opinion about Soros ??

Why should I have an opinion on Soros? I don't recall if I have said much, if anything about him. I was trying to make a rational response to your idiotic characterizations of the Koch's and unions.

[detbuch]

Obviously Trump was wrong. It's not about many sides or all sides. It's only about white supremacists:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/mas...D=ansmsnnews11

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Obviously Trump was wrong. It's not about many sides or all sides. It's only about white supremacists:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/mas...D=ansmsnnews11

Since 911 number of people killed by 28 people were killed as a result of white supremacist by A Ntifa ZERO


Another False equivalence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Since 911 number of people killed by 28 people were killed as a result of white supremacist by A Ntifa ZERO


Another False equivalence

Oh, so if you go by absolute numbers, can we presume you have told Black Lives Matter to stop worrying about white cops, and concentrate on black-on-black violence? After all, which causes more deaths?

Obviously, we need to prioritize our efforts. That doesn't mean that we can't condemn violence by white supremacists, as well as violence by lefty anarchists. In fact, that's exactly what our President did, if memory serves.

You walked right into that one...

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Since 911 number of people killed by 28 people were killed as a result of white supremacist by A Ntifa ZERO


Another False equivalence

Your "False equivalence" accusation is false equivalence. I did not propose an equivalence.

I don't know which violent groups are more equal than the others. Certainly, comparing the number of people killed "as a result of white supremacist[s]" (all such groups?, and what does as a result of mean?) in the last 16 years to a fairly new violence perpetrated by one group (in the past year or two?) is questionable, if not downright misleading.

And it doesn't have anything to do with my post.

I was just pointing out how wrong Trump was when he called out all sides for violence. Obviously, only white supremacists have been violent.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Your "False equivalence" accusation is false equivalence. I did not propose an equivalence.

I don't know which violent groups are more equal than the others. Certainly, comparing the number of people killed "as a result of white supremacist[s]" (all such groups?, and what does as a result of mean?) in the last 16 years to a fairly new violence perpetrated by one group (in the past year or two?) is questionable, if not downright misleading.

And it doesn't have anything to do with my post.

I was just pointing out how wrong Trump was when he called out all sides for violence. Obviously, only white supremacists have been violent.

Yes, all the white supremacists who rioted in Ferguson.

[detbuch]

Very, very interesting--Former "antifa style" radical speaks out. WDMSO--watch the whole damn thing . . . then damn it:

[PaulS]

So for the 3rd time - how are the Nazi's and KKK "fine" people in VA.

I know President Trump has reposted things from Neo Nazi sites in the past but can someone pls. explain how they are fine people and how did he know that?

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by PaulS

So for the 3rd time - how are the Nazi's and KKK "fine" people in VA.

I know President Trump has reposted things from Neo Nazi sites in the past but can someone pls. explain how they are fine people and how did he know that?

He says that they are fine because he was told that doing so is a perfect political tactic to further divide the people of this country and rally his base of white conservative voters who are threatened and scared of people of color and people who are not like them coming in and taking over.

He gets to rally his base and distract everyone from the real problems that are going on....

Sad.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[DZ]

Originally Posted by PaulS

So for the 3rd time - how are the Nazi's and KKK "fine" people in VA.

I know President Trump has reposted things from Neo Nazi sites in the past but can someone pls. explain how they are fine people and how did he know that?

Paul,
From what I understood and the way I interpreted his statement was that there were residents at the protest who were not white supremacists or KKK members and who legitimately did not want the statues removed. There were no doubt others at the protest who wanted the statues removed but were not necessarily members of Antifa (like the young women who was killed). These people/groups could be what Trump considered "fine" people. Just ordinary Americans who picked a side and did not resort to violence.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by DZ

Paul,
From what I understood and the way I interpreted his statement was that there were residents at the protest who were not white supremacists or KKK members and who legitimately did not want the statues removed. There were no doubt others at the protest who wanted the statues removed but were not necessarily members of Antifa (like the young women who was killed). These people/groups could be what Trump considered "fine" people. Just ordinary Americans who picked a side and did not resort to violence.

That's what most people, without a bitter hatred for Trump, took it to mean as well.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

That's what most people, without a bitter hatred for Trump, took it to mean as well.

I think that is too nuanced for Pres. Trump.

Does that mean I have a bitter hatred for him?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

So for the 3rd time - how are the Nazi's and KKK "fine" people in VA.

I know President Trump has reposted things from Neo Nazi sites in the past but can someone pls. explain how they are fine people and how did he know that?

"So for the 3rd time - how are the Nazi's and KKK "fine" people in VA"

They aren't. The ones who truly are Nazis and KKK, are bad people. Fair enough?

Was every single person protesting the removal of the statues, a Nazi or a Klansmen? I don't know. Condaleeza Rice is adamantly opposed to removing the statues, but didn't march for it. Does that make her a Nazi or a Klansman?

I don't know that anyone is saying that white supremacists are morally superior to the ANTIFA anarchists. Can't we say they are both bad? Maybe not equally bad, but both bad nonetheless?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by DZ

Paul,
From what I understood and the way I interpreted his statement was that there were residents at the protest who were not white supremacists or KKK members and who legitimately did not want the statues removed. There were no doubt others at the protest who wanted the statues removed but were not necessarily members of Antifa (like the young women who was killed). These people/groups could be what Trump considered "fine" people. Just ordinary Americans who picked a side and did not resort to violence.

BINGO.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

So for the 3rd time - how are the Nazi's and KKK "fine" people in VA.

I know President Trump has reposted things from Neo Nazi sites in the past but can someone pls. explain how they are fine people and how did he know that?

There are more than 15 historical videos of Trump explicitly condemning David Duke, the Klan, white supremacists, and Nazis, etc...

Given that, is it really beyond your reach, to fathom that Trump was referring to people who don't want the statues removed, but who aren't Nazis or in the Klan?

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Does that mean I have a bitter hatred for him?

Are you saying you don't?

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

That's what most people, without a bitter hatred for Trump, took it to mean as well.

^^^^

The people that deplore the violent right + Nazis + KKK and deplore the violent left + commies + anarchists. Those people that are in the middle and some will promote keeping of historical monuments and some will promote removal of said historical monuments.

Yes - most of us knew what it meant. Some, I'll bet, clearly knew what it meant but thrashed anyway

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

Are you saying you don't?

Not even close. I haven't called him a POS, posted unflattering pictures or mocked him, called him out for petty things (well occasionally), etc. (of which we had 8 years here of that w/Obama) with little if any push back or criticism except from a few of us. I do think he is not very smart, has no strategy, the WH is in a constant state of turmoil, and he appeals to racists (I'm sure we'll hear about that here).

I call out his constant lying and many times point out people's double standards.

Many members of his own party (and cabinet) have called him out for his statements and the seemingly moral equivalency he tried to make.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"So for the 3rd time - how are the Nazi's and KKK "fine" people in VA"

They aren't. The ones who truly are Nazis and KKK, are bad people. Fair enough?

Was every single person protesting the removal of the statues, a Nazi or a Klansmen? I don't know. Condaleeza Rice is adamantly opposed to removing the statues, but didn't march for it. Does that make her a Nazi or a Klansman?It doesn't make her a nazi and no one called her that. But if she was there to protest the removal and heard the vile chants about Jews and kept marching and didn't leave that would make her complicit.

I don't know that anyone is saying that white supremacists are morally superior to the ANTIFA anarchists. I think a fair interpretation of what Pres. Trump said was that they were equal in some way. Can't we say they are both bad? Maybe not equally bad, but both bad nonetheless?

Yes, antifa/anarchists are bad when they resort to violence but they don't have a history of killings like the KKK or Nazis so I wouldn't put them in the same sentence as Nazis. And I'm not here to defend them in any way - just comment on what our Pres. said.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Not even close. I haven't called him a POS, posted unflattering pictures or mocked him, called him out for petty things, etc. (of which we had 8 years here of that w/Obama) with little if any push back or criticism except from a few of us. I do think he is not very smart, has no strategy, the WH is in a constant state of turmoil, and appeals to racists (I'm sure we'll hear about that here).

I call out his constant lying and many times point out people's double standards.

Many members of his own party (and cabinet) have called him out for his statements and the seemingly moral equivalency he tried to make.

"I do think he is not very smart" Agreed.

"has no strategy" Disagree. But he's figuring out that unlike in the business world, he can't wave his hand and make everything happen that he wants to happen.

"the WH is in a constant state of turmoil" Absolutely agree.

"appeals to racists " It appeals to some kooks. If we hold presidents accountable for the actions of those they appeal to, you must have some harsh words for Obama about the cop assassinations that spiked at the end of his second term?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Yes, antifa/anarchists are bad when they resort to violence but they don't have a history of killings like the KKK or Nazis so I wouldn't put them in the same sentence as Nazis. And I'm not here to defend them in any way - just comment on what our Pres. said.

"It doesn't make her a nazi and no one called her that. But if she was there to protest the removal and heard the vile chants about Jews and kept marching and didn't leave that would make her complicit"

Agreed. Well said.

"I think a fair interpretation of what Pres. Trump said was that they were equal in some way"

Most of the criticism I saw, was that he sympathized with the Nazis, and I think that was a looney tunes interpretation of what he said. He condemned violence and bigotry on all sides. Paul, if you look at what he has historically said on video, he condemns white supremacists again and again and again. Sure, he could have used better language to single out the Nazis. But it's quite a leap from that, to saying he sympathizes with them.

As usual, his language choice could have been better. That will be a very consistent criticism of the man.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Yes, antifa/anarchists are bad when they resort to violence but they don't have a history of killings like the KKK or Nazis so I wouldn't put them in the same sentence as Nazis. And I'm not here to defend them in any way - just comment on what our Pres. said.

Nazis don't have the same history of killing people as Commies?

Or Make Believe Nazis (the kind we really have) don't have much a history of killing, no more than the Make Believe Commies.

I do think there is enough chance for real violence on the hard right Nazi/Klan types, just as there is from the Commie/Marxist/Anarchist bend.

Should take a close look at the Socialist Rifle Association, Redneck Revolt, and John Brown Gun Club. No better, or IMO, different, than militarized NeoNazis.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Nazis don't have the same history of killing people as Commies?What does Commies have to do with? Are you saying Antifa are commies?

Or Make Believe Nazis (the kind we really have) don't have much a history of killing, no more than the Make Believe Commies.Is the Joe McCarthy type of make believe Commies? The KKK killed enough here - didn't they?

I do think there is enough chance for real violence on the hard right Nazi/Klan types, just as there is from the Commie/Marxist/Anarchist bend.

Should take a close look at the Socialist Rifle Association, Redneck Revolt, and John Brown Gun Club. No better, or IMO, different, than militarized NeoNazis.

Take a look at anyone you want. Anyone who commits violence is the same. But in our country the far right has committed more violence than the far left.

I'm more concerned about our President's reaction to Charlottesville.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Take a look at anyone you want. Anyone who commits violence is the same. But in our country the far right has committed more violence than the far left.

I'm more concerned about our President's reaction to Charlottesville.

Errr, I don't know if the far right has committed more than the far left. Send them both to the klink - IF and WHEN - they have committed violence, and after proper justice.

I am more concerned about a bunch of anarchists and young Marxists running around as an army wanting revolution.

[Got Stripers]

I don't think we will ever know what percentage of the protesters were average Joe's and Janes with old southern roots, that didn't want to see part of their history torn down.

I just think Trump's mouth is so far ahead of common sense that he can't help setting himself up for constant criticism from the press. It was a very bad time to make that statement, that point might have been made separately at a later debate, one tied strictly to the reasoning for removing these historical statues.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

But in our country the far right has committed more violence than the far left.

I'm more concerned about our President's reaction to Charlottesville.

"But in our country the far right has committed more violence than the far left. "

That is very, very debatable. Depends on whether you are talking about frequency, severity, deaths, etc. Today, where is widespread violence committed by the right, other than one incident (and one is too many) in Charlotesville?

Occupy Wall Street, Black Lives Matter, cop assassinations, riots every time a white cop kills someone of color...of course there are radical righties who commit suicide, but there aren't large groups, large organizations of conservatives dedicated to anarchy.

"I'm more concerned about our President's reaction to Charlottesville"

He condemns all violence and bigotry. What an atrocious position to take.