A Muslim Iman that I actually like and wish the best. . . but

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by zimmy

Legal precedent.

I know you said you are a simple guy, so you can appreciate this line from US vs Lee (1982): Not all burdens on religion are unconstitutional.

"... the Supreme Court has set limits on freedom of speech and religion. "

Civil Rights Act of 1964 has withstood more than a half century of tests.

You make some good points.

But, according to Obama's federal government, if Muslim truckers don't want to transport alcohol for religious reasons, their employer was ordered to use other drivers. Using that same logic, why can't gay couples just use another baker who welcomes their trade. I don't see the difference.

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

You make some good points.

But, according to Obama's federal government, if Muslim truckers don't want to transport alcohol for religious reasons, their employer was ordered to use other drivers. Using that same logic, why can't gay couples just use another baker who welcomes their trade. I don't see the difference.

I would have to read the details of the ruling. One inherent difference is that one case apparently involves employees and the other involves a business owner.

I imagine the questions revolved around the burden placed on the business to use other drivers, but I am just guessing.

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

You make some good points.

But, according to Obama's federal government, if Muslim truckers don't want to transport alcohol for religious reasons, their employer was ordered to use other drivers. Using that same logic, why can't gay couples just use another baker who welcomes their trade. I don't see the difference.

Here you go. It is about an employer/employee relationship, not a business refusing a service.


"Our investigation revealed that Star could have readily avoided assigning these employees to alcohol delivery without any undue hardship, but chose to force the issue despite the employees' Islamic religion," said EEOC District Director John P. Rowe when the suit was filed...

If an employer can reasonably accommodate an employee's religious practice without an undue hardship, then it must do so. That is a principle which has been memorialized in federal employment law for almost 50 years, and it is why EEOC is in this case."
https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...eliver-alcohol

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by zimmy

Here you go. It is about an employer/employee relationship, not a business refusing a service.


"Our investigation revealed that Star could have readily avoided assigning these employees to alcohol delivery without any undue hardship, but chose to force the issue despite the employees' Islamic religion," said EEOC District Director John P. Rowe when the suit was filed...

If an employer can reasonably accommodate an employee's religious practice without an undue hardship, then it must do so. That is a principle which has been memorialized in federal employment law for almost 50 years, and it is why EEOC is in this case."
https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...eliver-alcohol

I absolutely hear what you are say9ng - and again, good points.

But I have to believe that (just as the tr#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g company owner could re-assign drivers), it would also be very easy for the engaged couple to get another baker. I guarantee that the vast majority of bakeries would be more than willing to cater a gay wedding. It cannot be an unreasonable hardship to get another baker.

What do you think?

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I absolutely hear what you are say9ng - and again, good points.

But I have to believe that (just as the tr#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g company owner could re-assign drivers), it would also be very easy for the engaged couple to get another baker. I guarantee that the vast majority of bakeries would be more than willing to cater a gay wedding. It cannot be an unreasonable hardship to get another baker.

What do you think?

What if he was the only wedding cake baker in town?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

What if he was the only wedding cake baker in town?

Constitutionally, I really don't see that it matters. The bill of rights doesn't say the freedoms only apply when it's sufficiently convenient.

These are deeply held beliefs. Just because you don't agree with them, doesn't mean they aren't genuine and sacred to these people.

I don't see anywhere in the Constitution, the right to have a cake at your wedding. I do see the guaranteed right to exercise your religion as you see fit.

And I googled bakeries in Lakewood Colorado (where the bakery in question is), there's quite a selection. So in this case, it would have been easy (and dare I say, tolerant??) for the gay couple to leave this poor man alone and simply go elsewhere. But that's not what liberals tend to do when they don't get their way.

Because as much as the left (especially on this issue) claims that it's about "live and let live", that notion only applies to their side. They demand tolerance, but show none to others. They are the ones, not the Christians, forcing their beliefs on others. That cannot be denied. This baker isn't trying to outlaw gay marriage, he's trying to practice his religion as he sees it.

We need to stop acting as if we have the right to not have our feelings hurt.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

What if he was the only wedding cake baker in town?

he wasn't...this is a quote from Dave Mullins the day after the incident

The couple has now "decided to go to the gayest cake shop we could think of. We went to Le Bakery Sensual and had a great experience," Mullins says. "They made us feel great, and no one batted an eye. When we told them what had happened, more than a few eyebrows went up."

[DZ]

What's lost in all this about the bakery is that potential customers with any kind of clear reasoning would have taken their business elsewhere if they found the bakery not conducive to their request. Something about a free market and decisions. Will be interesting to see how the SC rules. With the gay couples reasoning every baker should have to bake a penis cake whether it offends the baker or not. The reason I posted the video.

[spence]

Originally Posted by DZ

With the gay couples reasoning every baker should have to bake a penis cake whether it offends the baker or not. The reason I posted the video.

I don't think that's the issue at all though. There's a simple test, is the request for a cake that would be generally seen as offensive? A penis cake wouldn't pass this test.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

I don't think that's the issue at all though. There's a simple test, is the request for a cake that would be generally seen as offensive? A penis cake wouldn't pass this test.

The issue isn't the cake, either. The issue is the event the cake will be a part of. The same principle applies to Christian photographers, florists, restaurant owners, whatever.

You can not be forced to abandon your religion at work. The Muslim truck driver case makes that clear, as does the Hobby Lobby case and the Little Sisters Of The Poor case.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

The issue isn't the cake, either. The issue is the event the cake will be a part of.

Actually it's all about the cake. The baker doesn't want to go through the artistic effort of making a cake he knows will be used for a same sex wedding...in a state where same sex marriage was legal at the time.

When he has no issue with some pre-made cupcakes being used for god knows what because he doesn't have a spiritual/artistic attachment to those baked goods any longer. He has let go.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

...in a state where same sex marriage was legal at the time.

.

I don't think it was.. "Although they'll be reciting their vows in Provincetown, Massachusetts, in September, the couple plans to celebrate with a reception for friends and family in Denver in October."

Justice Samuel Alito pointed to this reality during oral arguments. At the time that Jack Phillips declined to bake a same-sex wedding cake, Colorado wouldn’t even recognize — let alone issue — same-sex marriage licenses. So the same-sex couple couldn’t get the state of Colorado to recognize their relationship as a marriage. “And yet when he goes to this bake shop, and he says I want a wedding cake, and the baker says, no, I won’t do it, in part because same-sex marriage was not allowed in Colorado at the time, he’s created a grave wrong,” Alito stated. “How does that all that fit together?”