IG Report

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Jim,
That is a picture of a place they put unaccompanied minors upon arrival. Not the same thing.
Just another but............ to justify the current actions.
Of course it is the american way, lock them up, that will show them.

So are you proposing that when adults who choose to break the law are being processed through the criminal justice system, that they be allowed to bring their children along? So we build daycares within our court buildings, with surrogate breastfeeders standing next to bailiffs? Build daycares within maximum security prisons, to avoid separating kids from their parents?

[Pete F.]

Jim, here is the rate of incarceration per 100K population for the world. It seems other people have different solutions to issues than us.
Country (or dependent territory,
subnational area, etc.) Incarceration
rate
(Prisoners per
100,000
population) Notes

United States of America 655 Notes
El Salvador 610
Turkmenistan 583
Virgin Islands (USA) 542
Maldives 514
Cuba 510
Thailand 497
Northern Mariana Islands (USA) 482
Virgin Islands (United Kingdom) 470
Bahamas 438
Seychelles 437
Grenada 435
Rwanda 434
Russian Federation 411
Guam (USA) 404
St. Kitts and Nevis 393
Panama 390
St. Vincent and the Grenadines 378
Costa Rica 374
Antigua and Barbuda 373
Belarus 364
Cayman Islands (United Kingdom) 359
Belize 356
Sint Maarten (Netherlands) 347
Palau 345
American Samoa (USA) 337
Brazil 328
Uruguay 321
Bermuda (United Kingdom) 319
Puerto Rico (USA) 313
Anguilla (United Kingdom) 307
Barbados 300
Cape Verde (Cabo Verde) 298
Namibia 295
Dominica 289
Turkey 287
Iran 284
Swaziland 282
French Guiana/Guyane (France) 281
South Africa 280
St. Lucia 279
Trinidad and Tobago 270
Peru 267
Mongolia 262
Guyana 259
Taiwan 259
Georgia 254
Dominican Republic 244
Nicaragua 238
Curaçao (Netherlands) 236
Israel 236
Azerbaijan 235
Lithuania 235
Bahrain 234
Morocco 232
Cook Islands (New Zealand) 229
Colombia 227
Chile 225
Greenland (Denmark) 225
Ecuador 222
New Zealand 220
Latvia 218
Martinique (France) 217
Honduras 216
Moldova (Republic of) 215
Czech Republic 209
Botswana 208
Tunisia 206
Samoa 204
Estonia 202
Singapore 201
Paraguay 199
New Caledonia (France) 198
Poland 198
Jordan 197
Macau (China) 197
Saudi Arabia 197
Mauritius 195
Kazakhstan 194
Albania 193
Guadeloupe (France) 192
Gabon 191
Slovakia 190
Argentina 186
Hungary 184
Suriname 183
Cambodia 176
French Polynesia (France) 176
Montenegro 174
Venezuela 173
Philippines 172
Kyrgyzstan 171
Australia 167
Malaysia 167
Tonga 166
Aruba (Netherlands) 165
Gibraltar (United Kingdom) 165
Mexico 165
Fiji 158
Ukraine 158
Kuwait 157
Bolivia 156
Macedonia (former Yugoslav Republic of) 156
Serbia 152
Uzbekistan 150
Algeria 146
Zambia 146
Bhutan 145
Myanmar (formerly Burma) 145
United Kingdom: England & Wales 141 Notes
Nauru 140
Guernsey (United Kingdom) 138
Jamaica 138
United Kingdom: Scotland 137 Notes
Guatemala 136
Brunei Darussalam 134
Jersey (United Kingdom) 133
Malta 133
Armenia 131
Portugal 129
Uganda 129
Ethiopia 127
Micronesia, Federated States of 127
Spain 127
Iraq 126
Lebanon 126
Bulgaria 125
Vietnam 122
Cameroon 121
Tajikistan 121
Zimbabwe 120
Laos 119
Mayotte (France) 119
China 118 Notes
Egypt 116
Romania 116
Luxembourg 115
Reunion (France) 115
Canada 114
Kiribati 113
Hong Kong (China) 111
Kenya 111
Tuvalu 110
Republic of (South) Korea 109
Isle of Man (United Kingdom) 108
Kosovo/Kosova 106
United Arab Emirates 104
France 102
Libya 99
Austria 98
Haiti 96
Italy 96
Indonesia 94
Sri Lanka 94
Angola 93
Greece 93
Lesotho 92
Belgium 91
Afghanistan 88
Madagascar 88
Monaco 85
Sao Tome e Principe 85
Burundi 84
Cyprus (Republic of) 83
Ireland, Republic of 82
Switzerland 82
Malawi 79
United Kingdom: Northern Ireland 79 Notes
Croatia 78
Germany 78
Senegal 76
Norway 74
Bosnia and Herzegovina: Federation 73
Solomon Islands 73
Vanuatu 71
Andorra 69
Benin 68
Bosnia and Herzegovina: Republika Srpska 66
Cote d'Ivoire 66
Djibouti 66
Marshall Islands 66
Mozambique 65
Nepal 65
Sierra Leone 64
Slovenia 64
Equatorial Guinea 63
Papua New Guinea 63
Togo 62
Syria 60
Chad 59
Denmark 59
Netherlands 59
Gambia 58
Tanzania 58
Finland 57
Sweden 57
Niger 53
Qatar 53
Yemen 53
South Sudan 52
Timor-Leste (formerly East Timor) 51
Ghana 50
Bangladesh 47
Mauritania 46
Sudan 46
Japan 45
Liberia 44
Pakistan 43
Burkina Faso 41
Iceland 38
Nigeria 36
Oman 36
India 33
Mali 33
Democratic Republic of Congo 29
Congo (Republic of) 27
Liechtenstein 27
Guinea (Republic of) 25
Comoros 23
Central African Republic 16
Faeroe Islands (Denmark) 12
Guinea Bissau 10

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

So are you proposing that when adults who choose to break the law are being processed through the criminal justice system, that they be allowed to bring their children along? Yes So we build daycares within our court buildings, with surrogate breastfeeders standing next to bailiffs? Why would they need surrogate breastfeeders? Build daycares within maximum security prisons, to avoid separating kids from their parents?

I think we need far fewer prisons and why is it always the worst offenders that you cite to advance your ideas?
In this case we are talking about people who have committed a misdemeanor, not a felony. The justification is always the worst possible outcome, which you use to justify the most draconian solution.

[Sea Dangles]

Those places certainly have more to offer than the US, I wonder why Mexicans aren't going there.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

I think we need far fewer prisons and why is it always the worst offenders that you cite to advance your ideas?
In this case we are talking about people who have committed a misdemeanor, not a felony. The justification is always the worst possible outcome, which you use to justify the most draconian solution.

Should these people be rewarded with citizenship as the punishment for something trifling as a misdemeanor? Should they get what they committed the misdemeanor for? Should a kid who steals a candy bar be punished or made to learn a lesson by letting him keep the candy and even giving him some more?

And, as Sea Dangles said, the big list of countries with lower incarceration rates than the US do not have the problem of millions trying to get into their country, legally or illegally.

I have a hard time understanding your logic.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Jim, here is the rate of incarceration per 100K population for the world. It seems other people have different solutions to issues than us.
10

yes, and those solutions include not having an open border with Mexico, having populations that are 99% white, and in the case of some of the countries you mentioned like Iran, they execute drug dealers, which I'd imagine, cuts down on crime. If you want to have THAT conversation, let's have it. But I don't think you do.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

Those places certainly have more to offer than the US, I wonder why Mexicans aren't going there.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Mexicans come here because we are right next door and fewer and fewer each year as the Mexican economy gets better. They don't come here to collect welfare or commit crimes, they come to work and earn money for their families.

We spend 50-60K per prisoner each year, or around $400 for every person in the USA.
We also have the highest rate of recidivism in the world.
So obviously our money is well spent if the object is to insure the future of our prison system.
Follow the money, look at privatization of the prison system.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Should these people be rewarded with citizenship as the punishment for something trifling as a misdemeanor? Should they get what they committed the misdemeanor for? Should a kid who steals a candy bar be punished or made to learn a lesson by letting him keep the candy and even giving him some more?

And, as Sea Dangles said, the big list of countries with lower incarceration rates than the US do not have the problem of millions trying to get into their country, legally or illegally.

I have a hard time understanding your logic.

I never said they become citizens.

Are you saying that no other country has people trying to flee their home country?
Guess you missed the Middle East and Europe.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

yes, and those solutions include not having an open border with Mexico, having populations that are 99% white, and in the case of some of the countries you mentioned like Iran, they execute drug dealers, which I'd imagine, cuts down on crime. If you want to have THAT conversation, let's have it. But I don't think you do.

We do not have an open border. We did, except for Asians, until a little over a hundred years ago.
Very few countries have a 99% white population, ALL countries have a lower rate of incarceration than the USA.
What do you think people learn in prison? Do they learn useful skills that help them succeed in society? Do they learn how to be more successful at life from other criminals?
Why do you think white people do not commit crimes? Is our crime rate because we do not have a lily white society?
Don't forget Trump was very impressed by Duterte's war on drugs, that killed thousands of people, would you go along with that if he attempted that here?

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

We do not have an open border. We did, except for Asians, until a little over a hundred years ago.
Very few countries have a 99% white population, ALL countries have a lower rate of incarceration than the USA.
What do you think people learn in prison? Do they learn useful skills that help them succeed in society? Do they learn how to be more successful at life from other criminals?
Why do you think white people do not commit crimes? Is our crime rate because we do not have a lily white society?
Don't forget Trump was very impressed by Duterte's war on drugs, that killed thousands of people, would you go along with that if he attempted that here?

You like to ask a lot of questions. Why don't you give some answers.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

I never said they become citizens.

I never said you said that. I asked you if the illegals should be rewarded with citizenship as punishment for a misdemeanor. Isn't that the goal of those who call for amnesty. And who want to maintain the system of not following up on those who don't report for their court date, and maintain the loose system that eventually winds up with an amnesty or with the illegals staying here in one way or another.

You made a point of them merely committing a misdemeanor. What do you think should be done about that?

Are you saying that no other country has people trying to flee their home country?
Guess you missed the Middle East and Europe.

I didn't know that the US has a problem of people trying to flee the country.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

I never said they become citizens.

Are you saying that no other country has people trying to flee their home country?
Guess you missed the Middle East and Europe.

Here is an answer for you, and no they are not all coming here.
https://www.worldvision.org/refugees...s-in-the-world

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Here is an answer for you, and no they are not all coming here.
https://www.worldvision.org/refugees...s-in-the-world

How is that an answer to these questions you asked:

"We do not have an open border. We did, except for Asians, until a little over a hundred years ago.
Very few countries have a 99% white population, ALL countries have a lower rate of incarceration than the USA.
What do you think people learn in prison? Do they learn useful skills that help them succeed in society? Do they learn how to be more successful at life from other criminals?
Why do you think white people do not commit crimes? Is our crime rate because we do not have a lily white society?
Don't forget Trump was very impressed by Duterte's war on drugs, that killed thousands of people, would you go along with that if he attempted that here?"

[spence]

Originally Posted by JohnR

I did not hear many people screaming when Obama did it.

Obama didn't do it, neither did Bush.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

How is that an answer to these questions you asked:

"We do not have an open border. We did, except for Asians, until a little over a hundred years ago.
Very few countries have a 99% white population, ALL countries have a lower rate of incarceration than the USA.
What do you think people learn in prison? Do they learn useful skills that help them succeed in society? Do they learn how to be more successful at life from other criminals?
Why do you think white people do not commit crimes? Is our crime rate because we do not have a lily white society?
Don't forget Trump was very impressed by Duterte's war on drugs, that killed thousands of people, would you go along with that if he attempted that here?"

Those were questions for Jim, why would I answer for him?
He seems to be quite capable, though I might disagree with his opinions.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Is there danger to the child by taking it illegally through hundreds of miles including many areas that are loaded with rapists and murderers and across two borders in order to, hopefully, arrive to an uncertain fate?

Clearly many feel the journey is worth the risk. If the status quo is unsustainable you have to change.

And why do you keep asking Jim stuff such as going to church or what the Good Book says? Do you give a rat's azz about church or the Good Book? That's a pitiful, disgusting technique plied by leftists and the Muslim Brotherhood in order to use someone's beliefs or laws against them when you don't care about those beliefs except to use them as a weapon.

Just curious if he really practices what he's preached. I'd note even Jeff Session's own church rejected his biblical justification.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

And where was the moral outrage over this, from 2009 - 2016? Is this something Trump invented, or was this taking place when the Nobel Peace Prize winner was POTUS?

Neither Bush nor Obama had the same policy Jim. Both treated minors traveling with a parent differently. Trump has changed two important things very recently:

1) By mandating that every case be prosecuted as criminal means the kids can't stay with their parent(s).

2) The process change on unaccompanied minors is making them harder to place. Most of these kids have family in the US and often that family is undocumented. This decision is now under the jurisdiction of ICE so if family is contacted they aren't responding for fear of deportation.

The Administration is just flatly lying to your face when they say this is a democrat law they're forced to follow. We need comprehensive immigration reform for sure but this is an evil political stunt for Trump to try and get his wall at the expense of kids.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

We do not have an open border. We did, except for Asians, until a little over a hundred years ago.
Very few countries have a 99% white population, ALL countries have a lower rate of incarceration than the USA.
What do you think people learn in prison? Do they learn useful skills that help them succeed in society? Do they learn how to be more successful at life from other criminals?
Why do you think white people do not commit crimes? Is our crime rate because we do not have a lily white society?
Don't forget Trump was very impressed by Duterte's war on drugs, that killed thousands of people, would you go along with that if he attempted that here?

"We do not have an open border"

we have, what, ten million undocumented people living here? A few years ago, a kid running for Congress, went to Mexico, and he crossed illegally back into the US, riding on an elephant, with a mariachi band walking with him, and he made it across (so the story goes). Effectively, it's open.

"What do you think people learn in prison? "

Nothing good. But they can't hurt civilians while in there, and that's at least a big part of why they are there.

"Do they learn useful skills that help them succeed in society?"

Probably not. If you want to spend some of my money to improve the programs to teach them marketable skills, I'm fine with that, if the programs work. I don't like spending money just to say you spent it.

"Why do you think white people do not commit crimes?"

For the same reason that Asian immigrants don't commit a lot of crimes. It has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with the culture that people embrace. Whites and Asians tend to embrace traditional family values and the value of education. Blacks and Hispanics (with encouragement from liberalism, in my opinion) tend to embrace a culture that encourages different, less productive, decision-making.

"Don't forget Trump was very impressed by Duterte's war on drugs, that killed thousands of people, would you go along with that if he attempted that here"

No, I'm opposed to the death penalty, but I'm in favor of brutal prison sentences for drug dealers.

[scottw]

are Spence, Pete and Wayne off their meds or something?

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

we have, what, ten million undocumented people living here? A few years ago, a kid running for Congress, went to Mexico, and he crossed illegally back into the US, riding on an elephant, with a mariachi band walking with him, and he made it across (so the story goes). Effectively, it's open.

The majority of undocumented people in the US came legally and overstayed their visa. Illegal border crossings are at a 46 year low.

For the same reason that Asian immigrants don't commit a lot of crimes. It has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with the culture that people embrace. Whites and Asians tend to embrace traditional family values and the value of education. Blacks and Hispanics (with encouragement from liberalism, in my opinion) tend to embrace a culture that encourages different, less productive, decision-making.

And there you have it. Hooboy.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"We do not have an open border"

we have, what, ten million undocumented people living here? A few years ago, a kid running for Congress, went to Mexico, and he crossed illegally back into the US, riding on an elephant, with a mariachi band walking with him, and he made it across (so the story goes). Effectively, it's open.

"What do you think people learn in prison? "

Nothing good. But they can't hurt civilians while in there, and that's at least a big part of why they are there.

"Do they learn useful skills that help them succeed in society?"

Probably not. If you want to spend some of my money to improve the programs to teach them marketable skills, I'm fine with that, if the programs work. I don't like spending money just to say you spent it.

"Why do you think white people do not commit crimes?"

For the same reason that Asian immigrants don't commit a lot of crimes. It has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with the culture that people embrace. Whites and Asians tend to embrace traditional family values and the value of education. Blacks and Hispanics (with encouragement from liberalism, in my opinion) tend to embrace a culture that encourages different, less productive, decision-making.

"Don't forget Trump was very impressed by Duterte's war on drugs, that killed thousands of people, would you go along with that if he attempted that here"

No, I'm opposed to the death penalty, but I'm in favor of brutal prison sentences for drug dealers.

Jim, there is an open border between each of the united states. I cannot just drive to Canada or Mexico without going thru Customs, nor can I fly to any country.
Anecdotal evidence is the populists response to issues. Rush and Bernie have been saving the world from all sorts of evils thru the media for years by citing anecdotal evidence.
People do enter this country illegally by crossing the border and also by overstaying their visas, like your friend. If you overstay your visa you have to wait three years to reapply.
We spend 50-60K a year per prison inmate to educate our prison inmates in how to be a better criminal.
We have the highest rate of recidivism in the world and you think that is the way to go?
Is it possible that the portion of the population that has the highest rate of incarceration continues to have higher and higher rates because of incarceration's effect on their culture?
You are incorrect about hispanics and rate of incarceration, it is much lower than blacks. But that would not fit into the evil Mexican image.
We have spent almost the last 50 years in a war on drugs and have made no headway.
We tried brutal sentences.
We have also let the Big Pharma create a whole new series of addicts, who then support the illegal sources.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

The majority of undocumented people in the US came legally and overstayed their visa. Illegal border crossings are at a 46 year low.



And there you have it. Hooboy.

Damn right there you have it.

70% of black babies are born without a dad. Poverty will never decrease meaningfully, until that statistic decreases meaningfully. I don't think skin color makes one more or less likely to have kids out of wedlock, so I say it's culture and decision-making.'

If I'm wrong, and I am sure you think I'm wrong, you tell me what's driving it?

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Damn right there you have it.

70% of black babies are born without a dad. Poverty will never decrease meaningfully, until that statistic decreases meaningfully. I don't think skin color makes one more or less likely to have kids out of wedlock, so I say it's culture and decision-making.'

If I'm wrong, and I am sure you think I'm wrong, you tell me what's driving it?

The Source of Black Poverty Isn't Black Culture, It's American Culture
Americans don't want to imagine that our racist history is actually an ongoing, racist reality.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...ulture/359937/
This wasn't even driven by Trump.
There is no simple answer.
I could go back to your argument about black abortions and see where that fits into the 70% claim.
White fatherless children are over 30% now also.
I do think that how you grew up has a great effect on how you will live.
What do we do to change that, sink or swim or swimming lessons?

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Jim, here is the rate of incarceration per 100K population for the world. It seems other people have different solutions to issues than us.
10

Maybe we should bring back Public stonings and cutting chit off....That might help bring the numbers down.

Didn't see North Korea on the list either, where do you think they fall on the scale?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

The Source of Black Poverty Isn't Black Culture, It's American Culture
Americans don't want to imagine that our racist history is actually an ongoing, racist reality.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...ulture/359937/
This wasn't even driven by Trump.
There is no simple answer.
I could go back to your argument about black abortions and see where that fits into the 70% claim.
White fatherless children are over 30% now also.
I do think that how you grew up has a great effect on how you will live.
What do we do to change that, sink or swim or swimming lessons?

Blacks who maintain th enuclear family and who are invested in their kids education, do just fine. Whites who drop out of school to have kids, struggle. There's way more to it than race.

"The Source of Black Poverty Isn't Black Culture, It's American Culture"

Democrat American culture, in terms of slavery and segregation, not conservatives.

"There is no simple answer"

There actually is. Go to a good church on Sundays, and try to live according to the lessons taught. There's no easy answer, there is a simple answer. The simple answer is to do what's right, rather than what feels good at the moment.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Blacks who maintain th enuclear family and who are invested in their kids education, do just fine. Whites who drop out of school to have kids, struggle. There's way more to it than race.

"The Source of Black Poverty Isn't Black Culture, It's American Culture"

Democrat American culture, in terms of slavery and segregation, not conservatives.

"There is no simple answer"

There actually is. Go to a good church on Sundays, and try to live according to the lessons taught. There's no easy answer, there is a simple answer. The simple answer is to do what's right, rather than what feels good at the moment.

Prior to the Constitution there was mandatory church attendance in some places. People were also warned out of town so they wouldn’t become a burden on the residents
Should we go back to that?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Whites and Asians tend to embrace traditional family values and the value of education. Blacks and Hispanics (with encouragement from liberalism, in my opinion) tend to embrace a culture that encourages different, less productive, decision-making.

Black Kids Aren’t “Illegitimate,” Your Data Comprehension is: Racist Lies About Out-of-Wedlock Birthrates
https://medium.com/@timjwise/black-k...k-836fa501b869

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

Maybe we should bring back Public stonings and cutting chit off....That might help bring the numbers down.

Didn't see North Korea on the list either, where do you think they fall on the scale?

Since more than 75% go back to prison, that would be one solution.
I don't think a radical Islamic one is correct for us though you may disagree.
I would have no idea where North Korea falls, is that a nation you wish to be compared to?
My guess is they are lower since the only black person there in years has been Dennis Rodman and Jim says it's black culture that drives criminal activity.
He may have impregnated many of them lately, you know how those black guys are, give it a few years and they will catch up.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Prior to the Constitution there was mandatory church attendance in some places. People were also warned out of town so they wouldn’t become a burden on the residents
Should we go back to that?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I didn't say it should be mandatory. I have never said anything that stupid. I said it was a simple solution to many of our problems, and it is People are only interested in easy solutions, and there is no easy solution.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

The Source of Black Poverty Isn't Black Culture, It's American Culture
Americans don't want to imagine that our racist history is actually an ongoing, racist reality.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...ulture/359937/
This wasn't even driven by Trump.
There is no simple answer.
I could go back to your argument about black abortions and see where that fits into the 70% claim.
White fatherless children are over 30% now also.
I do think that how you grew up has a great effect on how you will live.
What do we do to change that, sink or swim or swimming lessons?

"I could go back to your argument about black abortions and see where that fits into the 70% claim."

Not sure what you mean by that, I'm as opposed to aborting black babies as I am to aborting white babies.

"White fatherless children are over 30% now also"

Yes. a disturbing trend. But 30 < 70.

"I do think that how you grew up has a great effect on how you will live."

Agreed 100%, which is why kids need good parents.