Cape cod canal C&R only question

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Good luck with that. So many people who sit on the regulatory boards for striped bass regulations are either commercial fisherman or poachers. The conflict of interests are so glaringly obvious. In simple terms, it’s like the foxes are designing the fence to protect the hen house.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I can't believe that after the latest stock assessment some people are still blaming commercial fishermen. Have yo guys seen this graphic of the 2017 catch?

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

I can't believe that after the latest stock assessment some people are still blaming commercial fishermen. Have yo guys seen this graphic of the 2017 catch?

What % of the fisherman are commercial vs rec? W/o that stat, the chart is meaningless.

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by PaulS

What % of the fisherman are commercial vs rec? W/o that stat, the chart is meaningless.

I don't think it is completely meaningless. From a population perspective, it is all about dead fish. Who should be able to kill them is a subjective discussion. Recs kill the vast majority of fish; an enormous # of fish. Until that is dealt with, it is gonna get worse and worse.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by zimmy

I don't think it is completely meaningless. From a population perspective, it is all about dead fish. Who should be able to kill them is a subjective discussion. Recs kill the vast majority of fish; an enormous # of fish. Until that is dealt with, it is gonna get worse and worse.

I understand that a dead fish is a dead fish but to use that chart without including the percentage of rec versus commercial fisherman to try to make a point needs some clarification.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[piemma]

I think the total taken commercially in Mass was 800,000#. Hell the lunatics at the Canal would kill that in 2 weeks.

The answer is quite simple. Make the Striper a gamefish, impose a reasonable season, impose a slot and bingo, the stocks rebound and our kids and their kids have Stripers to catch.

Of course, pigs will fly before that happens. Too much money involved.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by piemma

I think the total taken commercially in Mass was 800,000#. Hell the lunatics at the Canal would kill that in 2 weeks.

The answer is quite simple. Make the Striper a gamefish, impose a reasonable season, impose a slot and bingo, the stocks rebound and our kids and their kids have Stripers to catch.

Of course, pigs will fly before that happens. Too much money involved.

Making stripers a game fish reduces the kill by 10% do you really think that would make a significant difference in the trajectory the SSB?

[piemma]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

Making stripers a game fish reduces the kill by 10% do you really think that would make a significant difference in the trajectory the SSB?

How do you come up with 10% Mike? If it's a game fish and there is a slot limit and a closed season for certain times of year then the total take is correspondingly reduced. Your logic is flawed because you assume I'm talking just about comms. The gamefish status would apply to everyone and the slot and closed season would also apply to everyone. It also would have a detrimental effect on the black market. No more striped bass on the menu in all the Asian restaurants.

Listen, Florida did it for Snook and Tarpon and it worked. I realize that those 2 species are indigenous to Florida and Stripers are much more widely distributed but if it were species wide then geographic borders would be meaningless.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by PaulS

What % of the fisherman are commercial vs rec? W/o that stat, the chart is meaningless.

What difference does it make if the commercial fishermen numbers are one or a million, they are only killing 10% of the fish.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

What difference does it make if the commercial fishermen numbers are one or a million, they are only killing 10% of the fish.

The difference is you are blaming the recreational fishermen without taking into account the % of each sector. If recreational fishermen are 99% of fisherman then they should be killing 99% of the fish.

Make it a game fish and a some of the problems are solved. Not all the problems but some of them.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by PaulS

The difference is you are blaming the recreational fishermen without taking into account the % of each sector. If recreational fishermen are 99% of fisherman then they should be killing 99% of the fish.

Make it a game fish and a some of the problems are solved. Not all the problems but some of them.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

It isn't a 1:1 kind of thing. If commercials are 1% of fisherman, they are catching for 1000's of other people. I guess it comes down to whether the fish, as a resource, should only be available to the person who is able/interested in catching it himself.

The spirit of Mako's original post is that some recs are quick to blame the commercial guys for the population problems and the data does not support that.

I think gamefish status reduces the harvest by more than 10%, but it wouldn't end poaching. It would be nearly impossible to police whether a restaurant is serving an illegally harvested or farm raised fish. Better that then what we have now, I suppose.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by zimmy

I think gamefish status reduces the harvest by more than 10%, but it wouldn't end poaching. It would be nearly impossible to police whether a restaurant is serving an illegally harvested or farm raised fish. Better that then what we have now, I suppose.

Look at the chart, for 2017 commercial harvest and dead discards are 10% of the total mortality.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by PaulS

The difference is you are blaming the recreational fishermen without taking into account the % of each sector. If recreational fishermen are 99% of fisherman then they should be killing 99% of the fish.

Make it a game fish and a some of the problems are solved. Not all the problems but some of them.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

O.K. here we go, I'm going to try and dress each of these messages separately.

Making it a gamefish does nothing but eliminate the commercial catch, which is, according to the stock assessment (which is where that chart comes from) is 10%. The fish belong to everyone, not just the guys who pick up a rod and go fishing. The commercial sector catches the fish for the rest of the country that doesn't fish. Fact is that by eliminating the commercial sector you are reducing mortality by 10% while doing nothing to address the other 90%.

[5/0]

Originally Posted by PaulS

What % of the fisherman are commercial vs rec? W/o that stat, the chart is meaningless.

Most of the local rec's and newbies are lagit.

The Van's from Downtown Boston with the Asin catch and take EVERYTHING THEY CATCH and they leave more trash than at Woodstock!


Just my opinion.
5/0
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[bloocrab]

Always been curious to how they truly measure the Rec. harvest?

"Hi #^&#^&#^&#^& Little, I understand you target Striped-Bass during the season.. how many stripers did you catch last year?"
"To tell you the truth mam', I killed em'....probly couple hundred!"

How many did #^&#^&#^&#^& really catch?
How are the reported numbers justified?
Honor system?? ....I can tell you this, 90% of fishermen that I've come across in my life stretch the truth...whether it's with their hands or their mouth.

The Canal is an anomoly.
When a big push of fish move in, so should a big push of law enforcement.
Regulations should be the same regardless the area....I'm still confused why size limits change for scup depending on the location?

[wdmso]

this rec vs comm guys

full disclosure I have applied for my Comm Bass permit


i dont know many rec guys catching 15 fish a day and keeping their 1 and releasing the rest and not everyone who owns a saltwater license fish for Bass ... not saying every comm guy gets 15 but to get their size limit there going thru some fish..

But for comm guys to suggest it's everyone else impacting and rec guys to say the same thing about the comm guys... is not based on reality ... and id love to see how scientific that chart and where the data comes from.. i did some research the graph is based on the whole east coast .. here is some information from the site ... some issues for me uncalibrated MRIP catch estimates and this
commercial landings in 2017 include Massachusetts (17%) recreational landings by Massachusetts (16%) not sure how mortality rates are not the same or very close? in Mass at least ,, and this applies here I am sure.. Anglers continue to release the vast majority of striped bass they catch; 73% to 91% not a math wiz but how many would need to be caught to get 16% landing if 73-91% are released ??

The following recreational estimates is based on uncalibrated MRIP catch estimates: From 2007 to 2014, total recreational landings along the coast have averaged just over 25 million pounds annually. From 2015-2017, recreational anglers harvested an estimated 16 million fish annually, which can be attributed to implementation of more restrictive regulations via Addendum IV. Of those coastwide recreational landings, Maryland landed the largest percent in 2017 in terms of number of fish (52%), followed by Massachusetts (16%), New York (10%), New Jersey (8%), and Virginia (5%). Anglers continue to release the vast majority of striped bass they catch; 73% to 91% since implementation of Amendment 6 in 2003. The number of released fish peaked in 2006 at 23.3 million fish. Total numbers of releases have declined since then, averaging 8.6 million fish annually from 2008-2017. An estimated 12.0 million fish were caught and released in 2017.

Under Amendment 5, commercial striped bass harvest grew from 3.4 million pounds in 1995 to 6 million pounds in 2002. Since the passage of Amendment 6, commercial harvest has been managed through a quota system, with landings averaging just shy of 7 million pounds annually from 2003 to 2014. In 2015, the commercial quota was reduced through Addendum IV. Chesapeake Bay jurisdictions accounted for approximately 62% (2.9 million pounds) of the total commercial landings in 2017 (4.8 million pounds). Other primary contributors to coastwide commercial landings in 2017 include Massachusetts (17%) and New York (15%). In 2017, commercial harvest in the Albemarle Sound/Roanoke River (A/R) management area was estimated at 75,783 pounds and recreational harvest estimated at 101,131 pounds.





I still feel a slot limit is the best bet keep the breeder out of the food chain

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by wdmso

this rec vs comm guys

full disclosure I have applied for my Comm Bass permit


i dont know many rec guys catching 15 fish a day and keeping their 1 and releasing the rest and not everyone who owns a saltwater license fish for Bass ... not saying every comm guy gets 15 but to get their size limit there going thru some fish..

But for comm guys to suggest it's everyone else impacting and rec guys to say the same thing about the comm guys... is not based on reality ... and id love to see how scientific that chart and where the data comes from.. i did some research the graph is based on the whole east coast .. here is some information from the site ... some issues for me uncalibrated MRIP catch estimates and this
commercial landings in 2017 include Massachusetts (17%) recreational landings by Massachusetts (16%) not sure how mortality rates are not the same or very close? in Mass at least ,, and this applies here I am sure.. Anglers continue to release the vast majority of striped bass they catch; 73% to 91% not a math wiz but how many would need to be caught to get 16% landing if 73-91% are released ??

The following recreational estimates is based on uncalibrated MRIP catch estimates: From 2007 to 2014, total recreational landings along the coast have averaged just over 25 million pounds annually. From 2015-2017, recreational anglers harvested an estimated 16 million fish annually, which can be attributed to implementation of more restrictive regulations via Addendum IV. Of those coastwide recreational landings, Maryland landed the largest percent in 2017 in terms of number of fish (52%), followed by Massachusetts (16%), New York (10%), New Jersey (8%), and Virginia (5%). Anglers continue to release the vast majority of striped bass they catch; 73% to 91% since implementation of Amendment 6 in 2003. The number of released fish peaked in 2006 at 23.3 million fish. Total numbers of releases have declined since then, averaging 8.6 million fish annually from 2008-2017. An estimated 12.0 million fish were caught and released in 2017.

Under Amendment 5, commercial striped bass harvest grew from 3.4 million pounds in 1995 to 6 million pounds in 2002. Since the passage of Amendment 6, commercial harvest has been managed through a quota system, with landings averaging just shy of 7 million pounds annually from 2003 to 2014. In 2015, the commercial quota was reduced through Addendum IV. Chesapeake Bay jurisdictions accounted for approximately 62% (2.9 million pounds) of the total commercial landings in 2017 (4.8 million pounds). Other primary contributors to coastwide commercial landings in 2017 include Massachusetts (17%) and New York (15%). In 2017, commercial harvest in the Albemarle Sound/Roanoke River (A/R) management area was estimated at 75,783 pounds and recreational harvest estimated at 101,131 pounds.





I still feel a slot limit is the best bet keep the breeder out of the food chain

Just FYI the terms "calibrated" and "uncalibrated" refer to a change in the methodology used to estimate the recreational catch. Originally the effort survey (see my note above) was made vis phone call. When they switched to the mail survey they got a much better response rate that was so different it called into question all of the estimates made in prior years. So they want back and reestimated (calibrated) the prior years to make them comparable to the estimates using the new methodology.

[piemma]

Originally Posted by bloocrab

The Canal is an anomoly.
When a big push of fish move in, so should a big push of law enforcement.
Regulations should be the same regardless the area....I'm still confused why size limits change for scup depending on the location?

The Canal may be an anomaly but the SW Ledge isn't. The whole sale slaughter that takes place out there is crazy. The charter guys from Montauk, RI, CT and even MA make a couple of trips a day with a 6 pack on board. They all limit out on big fish. Take 1, 20 to 30# fish times 6 guys, times 2 trips, times the number of boats and you get the picture of the slaughter that is taking place.

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by piemma

The Canal may be an anomaly but the SW Ledge isn't. The whole sale slaughter that takes place out there is crazy. The charter guys from Montauk, RI, CT and even MA make a couple of trips a day with a 6 pack on board. They all limit out on big fish. Take 1, 20 to 30# fish times 6 guys, times 2 trips, times the number of boats and you get the picture of the slaughter that is taking place.

That crowd can go out of business far as I am concerned. Moratorium, followed by a coastwide slot would end that nonsense.

[piemma]

Both posts spot on Zimmy.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by zimmy

That crowd can go out of business far as I am concerned. Moratorium, followed by a coastwide slot would end that nonsense.

It didn't last time, what makes you think it will this time?

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by piemma

The Canal may be an anomaly but the SW Ledge isn't. The whole sale slaughter that takes place out there is crazy. The charter guys from Montauk, RI, CT and even MA make a couple of trips a day with a 6 pack on board. They all limit out on big fish. Take 1, 20 to 30# fish times 6 guys, times 2 trips, times the number of boats and you get the picture of the slaughter that is taking place.

Another false assertion, if you dig into the numbers, on a coastwise basis the charter/party fleet is only responsible for about 5% of the total mortality (both fish kept and released mortality). Feel free to go look at the numbers. I looked at 2017, the latest year available.

[piemma]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

Another false assertion, if you dig into the numbers, on a coastwise basis the charter/party fleet is only responsible for about 5% of the total mortality (both fish kept and released mortality). Feel free to go look at the numbers. I looked at 2017, the latest year available.

Mike, I have always respected your opinion and still do but I disagree with your statements about the charter boats. I don't care what the charts say. I have seen boats come in at Noon with 6 dead 30 to 40 # fish. Back out and the same at 4:30 in the afternoon.
So all the boats in all the states I mentioned only account for 5% of the total mortality? I don't believe that for a minute.

I live here. I see what is happening. I totally get that VA and MD and NC at the Oregon Inlet account for a lot of tonnage. That's why I believe gamefish status is the only viable solution for the survival of the species.
My feeling are not self-serving as I sold the boat and haven't fished for Bass in 4 years. I care about the future.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by bloocrab

Always been curious to how they truly measure the Rec. harvest?

"Hi #^&#^&#^&#^& Little, I understand you target Striped-Bass during the season.. how many stripers did you catch last year?"
"To tell you the truth mam', I killed em'....probly couple hundred!"

How many did #^&#^&#^&#^& really catch?
How are the reported numbers justified?
Honor system?? ....I can tell you this, 90% of fishermen that I've come across in my life stretch the truth...whether it's with their hands or their mouth.

The Canal is an anomoly.
When a big push of fish move in, so should a big push of law enforcement.
Regulations should be the same regardless the area....I'm still confused why size limits change for scup depending on the location?

Here is an synopsis of how the rec catch is estimated, for more detail go to countmyfish.com.

There are trained state employees deployed throughout the fishing season (except for Jan. & Feb.) at point where they are likely to encounter anglers returning from a fishing trip. Those locations are NOT random, they are statistically selected to produce a statistically valid random sample. When the encounter and angler who agrees to be interviewed, they count and measure the fish in the anglers possession. They also ask about how many fish f each species were released. Those interviews are used to produce an estimates of the catch per unit of effort (CPUE) for that area.

Then there is a mail survey, which is sent to statistically valid random sample of addresses listed in the postal service database for the coastal states. That survey is used to produce an estimate of the total recreational effort.

Then the two are combined to produce the estimated catch. For released fish, and a huge amount of striped bass are released, the estimated mortality is derived from several scientific studies (one of which was conducted by Diodati of MA DEP) and is estimated at 9%.

That, in a nutshell, is how they get the recreational numbers. Basically the only thing they are taking someone's word for is how many times they went fishing and what they were fishing for.

[bloocrab]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

.... trained state employees deployed throughout the fishing season.....encounter an angler who agrees to be interviewed, they count and measure the fish in the anglers possession. They also ask about how many fish of each species were released. Those interviews are used to produce an estimates of the catch per unit of effort (CPUE) for that area.

Then there is a mail survey??, which is sent to statistically valid random sample of addresses listed in the postal service database for the coastal states. That survey?? is used to produce an estimate of the total recreational effort.

Then the two are combined to produce the estimated catch. For released fish, and a huge amount of striped bass are released, the estimated mortality is derived from several scientific studies (one of which was conducted by Diodati of MA DEP) and is estimated at 9%.

Basically the only thing they are taking someone's word for is how many times they went fishing and what they were fishing for.

I'm not being a flamer here *my font changes are only emphasizing my areas of further confusion*, but I fail to see where the science is in asking people who agree to be interviewed? Sure, if they have a fish in their possession, there's an actual count, but "how many did you release"? Really? How many guys walked away from that interview laughing about the tales told? Not that any agency could ever be accurate enough when it comes to "asking" people, but there are so many flaws in this system. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but how can you say that the only thing they're taking someone's word for is how many times they fish, when you state that they clearly "ask" people,,??? Isn't believing what they tell you, taking their word? The ONLY justifiable number is the fish they had in their possession...or perhaps I'm still missing something?? I surely don't have the answers to getting a factual number...it doesn't exist in the rec. realm...too many variables to consider. So to use these estimated numbers as scientific data is quite bogus in my opinion....but again, I don't have the answers, just opinions...and we know how those go.

[bloocrab]

WAIT!!!...maybe I do have the answer...shut it down for 6 - 8 years.
During that time, people can talk about WHY it was shut down and perhaps that'll drive us to be more responsible...again.
I mean, we did get a little smarter since the last moratorium, I thought ....let's just keep reliving the cycle, There's definitely science to prove that...

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by bloocrab

I'm not being a flamer here *my font changes are only emphasizing my areas of further confusion*, but I fail to see where the science is in asking people who agree to be interviewed? Sure, if they have a fish in their possession, there's an actual count, but "how many did you release"? Really? How many guys walked away from that interview laughing about the tales told? Not that any agency could ever be accurate enough when it comes to "asking" people, but there are so many flaws in this system. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but how can you say that the only thing they're taking someone's word for is how many times they fish, when you state that they clearly "ask" people,,??? Isn't believing what they tell you, taking their word? The ONLY justifiable number is the fish they had in their possession...or perhaps I'm still missing something?? I surely don't have the answers to getting a factual number...it doesn't exist in the rec. realm...too many variables to consider. So to use these estimated numbers as scientific data is quite bogus in my opinion....but again, I don't have the answers, just opinions...and we know how those go.

You can believe what you like, but those are the figures that rule recreational fishing. It's been reviewed several times by the National Science center and has been subject to some criticisms which were implemented, their last review gave the MRIP program an unqualified thumbs up. I too have some more specific concerns over how its done and how things are computed, but the MRIP numbers are what rules the recreational world. Not just for striped bass but for every species we target.