Cape cod canal C&R only question

[bloocrab]

Always been curious to how they truly measure the Rec. harvest?

"Hi #^&#^&#^&#^& Little, I understand you target Striped-Bass during the season.. how many stripers did you catch last year?"
"To tell you the truth mam', I killed em'....probly couple hundred!"

How many did #^&#^&#^&#^& really catch?
How are the reported numbers justified?
Honor system?? ....I can tell you this, 90% of fishermen that I've come across in my life stretch the truth...whether it's with their hands or their mouth.

The Canal is an anomoly.
When a big push of fish move in, so should a big push of law enforcement.
Regulations should be the same regardless the area....I'm still confused why size limits change for scup depending on the location?

[wdmso]

this rec vs comm guys

full disclosure I have applied for my Comm Bass permit


i dont know many rec guys catching 15 fish a day and keeping their 1 and releasing the rest and not everyone who owns a saltwater license fish for Bass ... not saying every comm guy gets 15 but to get their size limit there going thru some fish..

But for comm guys to suggest it's everyone else impacting and rec guys to say the same thing about the comm guys... is not based on reality ... and id love to see how scientific that chart and where the data comes from.. i did some research the graph is based on the whole east coast .. here is some information from the site ... some issues for me uncalibrated MRIP catch estimates and this
commercial landings in 2017 include Massachusetts (17%) recreational landings by Massachusetts (16%) not sure how mortality rates are not the same or very close? in Mass at least ,, and this applies here I am sure.. Anglers continue to release the vast majority of striped bass they catch; 73% to 91% not a math wiz but how many would need to be caught to get 16% landing if 73-91% are released ??

The following recreational estimates is based on uncalibrated MRIP catch estimates: From 2007 to 2014, total recreational landings along the coast have averaged just over 25 million pounds annually. From 2015-2017, recreational anglers harvested an estimated 16 million fish annually, which can be attributed to implementation of more restrictive regulations via Addendum IV. Of those coastwide recreational landings, Maryland landed the largest percent in 2017 in terms of number of fish (52%), followed by Massachusetts (16%), New York (10%), New Jersey (8%), and Virginia (5%). Anglers continue to release the vast majority of striped bass they catch; 73% to 91% since implementation of Amendment 6 in 2003. The number of released fish peaked in 2006 at 23.3 million fish. Total numbers of releases have declined since then, averaging 8.6 million fish annually from 2008-2017. An estimated 12.0 million fish were caught and released in 2017.

Under Amendment 5, commercial striped bass harvest grew from 3.4 million pounds in 1995 to 6 million pounds in 2002. Since the passage of Amendment 6, commercial harvest has been managed through a quota system, with landings averaging just shy of 7 million pounds annually from 2003 to 2014. In 2015, the commercial quota was reduced through Addendum IV. Chesapeake Bay jurisdictions accounted for approximately 62% (2.9 million pounds) of the total commercial landings in 2017 (4.8 million pounds). Other primary contributors to coastwide commercial landings in 2017 include Massachusetts (17%) and New York (15%). In 2017, commercial harvest in the Albemarle Sound/Roanoke River (A/R) management area was estimated at 75,783 pounds and recreational harvest estimated at 101,131 pounds.





I still feel a slot limit is the best bet keep the breeder out of the food chain

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by wdmso

this rec vs comm guys

full disclosure I have applied for my Comm Bass permit


i dont know many rec guys catching 15 fish a day and keeping their 1 and releasing the rest and not everyone who owns a saltwater license fish for Bass ... not saying every comm guy gets 15 but to get their size limit there going thru some fish..

But for comm guys to suggest it's everyone else impacting and rec guys to say the same thing about the comm guys... is not based on reality ... and id love to see how scientific that chart and where the data comes from.. i did some research the graph is based on the whole east coast .. here is some information from the site ... some issues for me uncalibrated MRIP catch estimates and this
commercial landings in 2017 include Massachusetts (17%) recreational landings by Massachusetts (16%) not sure how mortality rates are not the same or very close? in Mass at least ,, and this applies here I am sure.. Anglers continue to release the vast majority of striped bass they catch; 73% to 91% not a math wiz but how many would need to be caught to get 16% landing if 73-91% are released ??

The following recreational estimates is based on uncalibrated MRIP catch estimates: From 2007 to 2014, total recreational landings along the coast have averaged just over 25 million pounds annually. From 2015-2017, recreational anglers harvested an estimated 16 million fish annually, which can be attributed to implementation of more restrictive regulations via Addendum IV. Of those coastwide recreational landings, Maryland landed the largest percent in 2017 in terms of number of fish (52%), followed by Massachusetts (16%), New York (10%), New Jersey (8%), and Virginia (5%). Anglers continue to release the vast majority of striped bass they catch; 73% to 91% since implementation of Amendment 6 in 2003. The number of released fish peaked in 2006 at 23.3 million fish. Total numbers of releases have declined since then, averaging 8.6 million fish annually from 2008-2017. An estimated 12.0 million fish were caught and released in 2017.

Under Amendment 5, commercial striped bass harvest grew from 3.4 million pounds in 1995 to 6 million pounds in 2002. Since the passage of Amendment 6, commercial harvest has been managed through a quota system, with landings averaging just shy of 7 million pounds annually from 2003 to 2014. In 2015, the commercial quota was reduced through Addendum IV. Chesapeake Bay jurisdictions accounted for approximately 62% (2.9 million pounds) of the total commercial landings in 2017 (4.8 million pounds). Other primary contributors to coastwide commercial landings in 2017 include Massachusetts (17%) and New York (15%). In 2017, commercial harvest in the Albemarle Sound/Roanoke River (A/R) management area was estimated at 75,783 pounds and recreational harvest estimated at 101,131 pounds.





I still feel a slot limit is the best bet keep the breeder out of the food chain

Just FYI the terms "calibrated" and "uncalibrated" refer to a change in the methodology used to estimate the recreational catch. Originally the effort survey (see my note above) was made vis phone call. When they switched to the mail survey they got a much better response rate that was so different it called into question all of the estimates made in prior years. So they want back and reestimated (calibrated) the prior years to make them comparable to the estimates using the new methodology.

[piemma]

Originally Posted by bloocrab

The Canal is an anomoly.
When a big push of fish move in, so should a big push of law enforcement.
Regulations should be the same regardless the area....I'm still confused why size limits change for scup depending on the location?

The Canal may be an anomaly but the SW Ledge isn't. The whole sale slaughter that takes place out there is crazy. The charter guys from Montauk, RI, CT and even MA make a couple of trips a day with a 6 pack on board. They all limit out on big fish. Take 1, 20 to 30# fish times 6 guys, times 2 trips, times the number of boats and you get the picture of the slaughter that is taking place.

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by piemma

The Canal may be an anomaly but the SW Ledge isn't. The whole sale slaughter that takes place out there is crazy. The charter guys from Montauk, RI, CT and even MA make a couple of trips a day with a 6 pack on board. They all limit out on big fish. Take 1, 20 to 30# fish times 6 guys, times 2 trips, times the number of boats and you get the picture of the slaughter that is taking place.

That crowd can go out of business far as I am concerned. Moratorium, followed by a coastwide slot would end that nonsense.

[piemma]

Both posts spot on Zimmy.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by zimmy

That crowd can go out of business far as I am concerned. Moratorium, followed by a coastwide slot would end that nonsense.

It didn't last time, what makes you think it will this time?

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

It didn't last time, what makes you think it will this time?

There wasn't a coast wide slot following the last moratorium. The regulations did bring the population to unprecedented levels.

If there were a slot, neither those boats nor the recs would have been out there decimating schools of big fish the way they been for 20 years. We probably would be talking about plugs vs eels and not a potential moratorium.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by zimmy

There wasn't a coast wide slot following the last moratorium. The regulations did bring the population to unprecedented levels.

If there were a slot, neither those boats nor the recs would have been out there decimating schools of big fish the way they been for 20 years. We probably would be talking about plugs vs eels and not a potential moratorium.

What on earth leads you to the conclusion that a lot less people will fish if there is a slot limit?

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

What on earth leads you to the conclusion that a lot less people will fish if there is a slot limit?

"If there were a slot, neither those boats nor the recs would have been out there decimating schools of big fish the way they been for 20 years. We probably would be talking about plugs vs eels and not a potential moratorium"

What in the post you quoted from me says that a lot less people will fish if there is a slot limit?

Also, what on Earth were you talking about when you replied to a post about a moratorium and a coast wide slot and said it didn't work last time?

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by piemma

The Canal may be an anomaly but the SW Ledge isn't. The whole sale slaughter that takes place out there is crazy. The charter guys from Montauk, RI, CT and even MA make a couple of trips a day with a 6 pack on board. They all limit out on big fish. Take 1, 20 to 30# fish times 6 guys, times 2 trips, times the number of boats and you get the picture of the slaughter that is taking place.

Another false assertion, if you dig into the numbers, on a coastwise basis the charter/party fleet is only responsible for about 5% of the total mortality (both fish kept and released mortality). Feel free to go look at the numbers. I looked at 2017, the latest year available.

[piemma]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

Another false assertion, if you dig into the numbers, on a coastwise basis the charter/party fleet is only responsible for about 5% of the total mortality (both fish kept and released mortality). Feel free to go look at the numbers. I looked at 2017, the latest year available.

Mike, I have always respected your opinion and still do but I disagree with your statements about the charter boats. I don't care what the charts say. I have seen boats come in at Noon with 6 dead 30 to 40 # fish. Back out and the same at 4:30 in the afternoon.
So all the boats in all the states I mentioned only account for 5% of the total mortality? I don't believe that for a minute.

I live here. I see what is happening. I totally get that VA and MD and NC at the Oregon Inlet account for a lot of tonnage. That's why I believe gamefish status is the only viable solution for the survival of the species.
My feeling are not self-serving as I sold the boat and haven't fished for Bass in 4 years. I care about the future.

[puppet]

I agree...the charts and numbers cannot account for the poaching which is super out of control...same as the black market crap that goes on.

Regarding the Canal. Throw enforcement at it. Special regs. Minimum fine for poaching or wanton waste is between a 1 and 10K fine. Like you can get fined if you release a fish that floats.

Catch and keep is a counter intuitive regulation. If the Canal was a catch and keep only fishery that was strongly enforced. Most of the facebook yahoos would disappear. Once you catch your limit no matter the size you have to stop fishing. If its a legal fish you can get fined for releasing it. You would need a lot of enforcement but in my eyes...it would generate revenue for the state...keep the tackle shops in business and really cull the misbehavior.

It is also easy to for me to make this suggestion because it is not my home water....but just wanted to throw it into the pot as another idea.

[piemma]

Good thoughts!

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by puppet

I agree...the charts and numbers cannot account for the poaching which is super out of control...same as the black market crap that goes on.

Regarding the Canal. Throw enforcement at it. Special regs. Minimum fine for poaching or wanton waste is between a 1 and 10K fine. Like you can get fined if you release a fish that floats.

Catch and keep is a counter intuitive regulation. If the Canal was a catch and keep only fishery that was strongly enforced. Most of the facebook yahoos would disappear. Once you catch your limit no matter the size you have to stop fishing. If its a legal fish you can get fined for releasing it. You would need a lot of enforcement but in my eyes...it would generate revenue for the state...keep the tackle shops in business and really cull the misbehavior.

It is also easy to for me to make this suggestion because it is not my home water....but just wanted to throw it into the pot as another idea.

could'a would'a should'a that may r may not work, but its not the world we live in.

[puppet]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

could'a would'a should'a that may r may not work, but its not the world we live in.

I get it and really understand the best we can do is remove our own footprint on the fishery....but i just love surf fishing for bass so much that i hope someone comes up with some solution to the problem.

Who is to blame is never been something i get too hung up on. Both rec and coms poach and have impact on the fishery.

I totally understand the government really cares little about the resource as they do nothing to enforce and protect it.

Anyway...i will crawl back into my hole and hope for a miracle....hahaha.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by piemma

Mike, I have always respected your opinion and still do but I disagree with your statements about the charter boats. I don't care what the charts say. I have seen boats come in at Noon with 6 dead 30 to 40 # fish. Back out and the same at 4:30 in the afternoon.
So all the boats in all the states I mentioned only account for 5% of the total mortality? I don't believe that for a minute.

I live here. I see what is happening. I totally get that VA and MD and NC at the Oregon Inlet account for a lot of tonnage. That's why I believe gamefish status is the only viable solution for the survival of the species.
My feeling are not self-serving as I sold the boat and haven't fished for Bass in 4 years. I care about the future.

Hey, I'm with you but I've become something of a fisheries science nerd in the last 15 years. But I haven't fished for them in the last several years. I learned to go by the numbers the scientists produce, sometimes they are wrong but most times they are right. Sometimes I'll quibble about the details but by and large the scientist are right. FWIW I spent three days last week with two of the guys who were responsible for the stock assessment.

Anyway, the statistics show that in 2017 the entire charter party fleet was responsible for 5% of the mortality. I didn't run the numbers for the prior years but I believe they would be in the same neighborhood. Feel free to query the database, its pretty easy to do, and let me know if I'm wrong.

As far as slot limits go, the general consensus at this point among us wonks, is that it will only work if the limits are continually adjusted to protect the few big year classes we have coming into fishable sizes.

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

As far as slot limits go, the general consensus at this point among us wonks, is that it will only work if the limits are continually adjusted to protect the few big year classes we have coming into fishable sizes.

That is what needs to be done in the near term. Good reason to have a moratorium for awhile. After that, a slot of moderately small fish would cut the harvest of breeding females by transfer some of the pressure to males.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by zimmy

That is what needs to be done in the near term. Good reason to have a moratorium for awhile. After that, a slot of moderately small fish would cut the harvest of breeding females by transfer some of the pressure to males.

Not in the biggest segment of the fishery, the Chesapeake bay stock. Males of the Chessie stock don't migrate out of the bay. Hudson and Delaware males are already being caught. A moratorium is not needed, the stock right now is about twice as large as the stock was when the last moratorium happened. As someone at the meeting last week summed it up, we just need to set the table and wait for mother nature to provide the conditions for a huge spawning year.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by bloocrab

Always been curious to how they truly measure the Rec. harvest?

"Hi #^&#^&#^&#^& Little, I understand you target Striped-Bass during the season.. how many stripers did you catch last year?"
"To tell you the truth mam', I killed em'....probly couple hundred!"

How many did #^&#^&#^&#^& really catch?
How are the reported numbers justified?
Honor system?? ....I can tell you this, 90% of fishermen that I've come across in my life stretch the truth...whether it's with their hands or their mouth.

The Canal is an anomoly.
When a big push of fish move in, so should a big push of law enforcement.
Regulations should be the same regardless the area....I'm still confused why size limits change for scup depending on the location?

Here is an synopsis of how the rec catch is estimated, for more detail go to countmyfish.com.

There are trained state employees deployed throughout the fishing season (except for Jan. & Feb.) at point where they are likely to encounter anglers returning from a fishing trip. Those locations are NOT random, they are statistically selected to produce a statistically valid random sample. When the encounter and angler who agrees to be interviewed, they count and measure the fish in the anglers possession. They also ask about how many fish f each species were released. Those interviews are used to produce an estimates of the catch per unit of effort (CPUE) for that area.

Then there is a mail survey, which is sent to statistically valid random sample of addresses listed in the postal service database for the coastal states. That survey is used to produce an estimate of the total recreational effort.

Then the two are combined to produce the estimated catch. For released fish, and a huge amount of striped bass are released, the estimated mortality is derived from several scientific studies (one of which was conducted by Diodati of MA DEP) and is estimated at 9%.

That, in a nutshell, is how they get the recreational numbers. Basically the only thing they are taking someone's word for is how many times they went fishing and what they were fishing for.

[bloocrab]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

.... trained state employees deployed throughout the fishing season.....encounter an angler who agrees to be interviewed, they count and measure the fish in the anglers possession. They also ask about how many fish of each species were released. Those interviews are used to produce an estimates of the catch per unit of effort (CPUE) for that area.

Then there is a mail survey??, which is sent to statistically valid random sample of addresses listed in the postal service database for the coastal states. That survey?? is used to produce an estimate of the total recreational effort.

Then the two are combined to produce the estimated catch. For released fish, and a huge amount of striped bass are released, the estimated mortality is derived from several scientific studies (one of which was conducted by Diodati of MA DEP) and is estimated at 9%.

Basically the only thing they are taking someone's word for is how many times they went fishing and what they were fishing for.

I'm not being a flamer here *my font changes are only emphasizing my areas of further confusion*, but I fail to see where the science is in asking people who agree to be interviewed? Sure, if they have a fish in their possession, there's an actual count, but "how many did you release"? Really? How many guys walked away from that interview laughing about the tales told? Not that any agency could ever be accurate enough when it comes to "asking" people, but there are so many flaws in this system. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but how can you say that the only thing they're taking someone's word for is how many times they fish, when you state that they clearly "ask" people,,??? Isn't believing what they tell you, taking their word? The ONLY justifiable number is the fish they had in their possession...or perhaps I'm still missing something?? I surely don't have the answers to getting a factual number...it doesn't exist in the rec. realm...too many variables to consider. So to use these estimated numbers as scientific data is quite bogus in my opinion....but again, I don't have the answers, just opinions...and we know how those go.

[bloocrab]

WAIT!!!...maybe I do have the answer...shut it down for 6 - 8 years.
During that time, people can talk about WHY it was shut down and perhaps that'll drive us to be more responsible...again.
I mean, we did get a little smarter since the last moratorium, I thought ....let's just keep reliving the cycle, There's definitely science to prove that...

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by bloocrab

I'm not being a flamer here *my font changes are only emphasizing my areas of further confusion*, but I fail to see where the science is in asking people who agree to be interviewed? Sure, if they have a fish in their possession, there's an actual count, but "how many did you release"? Really? How many guys walked away from that interview laughing about the tales told? Not that any agency could ever be accurate enough when it comes to "asking" people, but there are so many flaws in this system. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but how can you say that the only thing they're taking someone's word for is how many times they fish, when you state that they clearly "ask" people,,??? Isn't believing what they tell you, taking their word? The ONLY justifiable number is the fish they had in their possession...or perhaps I'm still missing something?? I surely don't have the answers to getting a factual number...it doesn't exist in the rec. realm...too many variables to consider. So to use these estimated numbers as scientific data is quite bogus in my opinion....but again, I don't have the answers, just opinions...and we know how those go.

You can believe what you like, but those are the figures that rule recreational fishing. It's been reviewed several times by the National Science center and has been subject to some criticisms which were implemented, their last review gave the MRIP program an unqualified thumbs up. I too have some more specific concerns over how its done and how things are computed, but the MRIP numbers are what rules the recreational world. Not just for striped bass but for every species we target.

[bloocrab]

Understood....and I'm glad you didn't take my post personally...no one's at fault here, we're just sharing opinions. That system may just be the closest assessment process possible for the Rec. sector.
However, it's severely flawed (IMO) and when I read about %'s on the rec. side, I always shake my head. It just makes matters worse when I see people standing behind those numbers like they're actually scientific facts/data. They're not...they're estimates based on peoples' "reportings"

Interview a "yahoo" who wants attention to begin with, and what do you think he's going to report, that he got skunked or that was the only fish he caught? I doubt it.
Seems like a lot more people are looking for a soap-box nowadays and that leads to false information
___________________________

I can just hear them now, during a moratorium at the Canal...."I wasn't trying to catch a striped-bass, I was after that one bluefish that I saw jump in the middle of that mass of Bass"...

The CCC must rank high for locales with the highest mortality rates in the NE for SB. But it's easy to forgive yourself when you toss or even carefully release that striped-bass back in the water...he's out of sight and out of mind. You don't realize the damage done because he's only going to wash up further down in an eddy, or simply float out into one of the Bays. As much as it pains me to say this, because I too am guilty (if I can call it that) of fishing the CCC, but they should probably shut down fishing altogether in that place. Some will say, the CCC is but a grain of sand along the entire E-coast, but the impact caused to large schools (of the perfect mating class) at one given time is pretty impressive.

For every conservative advocate, there are 1K who don't give a dam.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by bloocrab

Understood....and I'm glad you didn't take my post personally...no one's at fault here, we're just sharing opinions. That system may just be the closest assessment process possible for the Rec. sector.
However, it's severely flawed (IMO) and when I read about %'s on the rec. side, I always shake my head. It just makes matters worse when I see people standing behind those numbers like they're actually scientific facts/data. They're not...they're estimates based on peoples' "reportings"

Like it or not its our best and only estimate of the recreational sector and the NSC says its a good estimate. We will never be able to get a count of the fish in the recreational sector as a whole, thought we do get a very good estimate of the catch in the charter/party fleet. There we have a specific survey aimed at the customers of that sector which is backed up by the VTR reporting of the vessels themselves. Kind of a double check on what's being reported. On the commercial side we have an actual counting of fish, required by the dealers. Backdoor sales by poachers (both recreational and commercial) are almost impossible to quantify.