22 dead kids

[fishpoopoo]

'nuff said.

[fishpoopoo]

if anyone is in to grim statistics, here is the worst mass school killing in u.s. history (it's not Virginia Tech or Columbine or UT):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

[mosholu]

Bassturbed please come out of the bunker and smell reality.
Concealed weapons were the cause of the loss of 32 innocent lives.

[fishpoopoo]

baloney.

a fox can have his way in the chicken coop.

32 people died because a nutbag was on the loose and there was a no guns on campus policy.

Estimated percentage of Virginians who carry concealed: 1% or more

Number of VT students: 25,000

Number of VT students who might have been able to stop this tragedy from unfolding if allowed by school to conceal carry: 250

http://boortz.com/nuze/index.html

Monday - April 16, 2007


CARNAGE AT VIRGINIA TECH

Like me, I'm sure many of you are busy tracking the news stories out of Blacksburg, Virginia. A person, presumably a student, armed with two semi-automatic pistols has hilled at least 32 people. The shooter is dead. Whether by his own hand, or at the hands of law enforcement, is not yet known.

As the initial shock wears off you can bet that the anti-Second Amendment people wall be coming out of the woodwork. By the time the evening network newscasts hit we will have no shortage of spokesmen for various anti-gun groups stepping forth to issue their tired call for an end to the private ownership of handguns.

This is undoubtedly the worst school shooting, high school, college or otherwise, in the history of our country. There are some facts, however, about some of these school shootings of which you probably are not aware. Do you know, for instance, that at least three shootings in high schools were stopped by civilians with guns? Civilians, not law enforcement. In one case a civilian was traveling past a school when he saw children running from the building. One told him that there was a student inside shooting people. The civilian pulled his gun, ran in side, and confronted the student. The student put down the gun and surrendered. In another case a high school vice-principal heard that there was a student in the hallways with a gun. He sprinted a half-mile to his car. He had a gun in his car so he had to park off campus. He then sprinted back with the gun to confront the student. Lives saved.

The point here is that you are never ever going to get the guns out of the hands of those who want to use them for carnage. Never. Gun control programs will only succeed in getting the guns out of the hands of people who want them and need them for self-defense. Never, in the history of America's gun control movement, has anyone set forth a viable program to get the guns out of the hands of those who would use them to commit crimes. Similarly, the gun control movement will never give any fair coverage at all to the people who use guns to save their own lives, or the lives of others.

We'll have much more to say about this tomorrow. For now, you should know that earlier this year the Virginia General Assembly failed to act on House Bill 1572. This bill would have allowed college students and employees to carry handguns on campus --- with appropriate permits, of course. It died in subcommittee. Larry Hincker, a spokesman for Virginia Tech, the site of today's carnage, said "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

Well .. how's today for safety?

If it had been legal for students, employees or faculty members with permits to carry guns on the campus, is it at all possible that there might be some students alive today who didn't make it through the carnage? Do you think the actions of the Virginia General Assembly stopped the gunman from getting his guns and carrying them to the campus?

More on this tomorrow.

[basswipe]

Originally Posted by mosholu

Bassturbed please come out of the bunker and smell reality.
Concealed weapons were the cause of the loss of 32 innocent lives.

Get yer facts straight.31 Innocent lives unless you consider the killer innocent.

The state of VA. does not allow the carrying of concealed weapons without stringent regs.If VA had better laws and the university had not banned guns altogether someone might have been able to prevent this.

If YOU were in a position to prevent the killing of another person by you having the use of a firearm would you kill the perp to save the lives of the innocent?Of course you would.

Here in America those states/cities/towns where its permissable for good law-abiding citizens to carry the crime rate is negligible.This is an undisputable fact.

You want proof?Ask Texas state representative Suzanna Gratia.She watched her father and mother along with 21 others were murdered.
She was the #1 instrumental person in getting TX CC passed.The TX crime rate is so low its actually peaceful.

Best advice...worry about your own country.The UK has enough of its share of serial killers,child molestors/kindnappers/murderers for you even begin to judge US society.

[Diamond Tackle]

Originally Posted by mosholu

Bassturbed please come out of the bunker and smell reality.
Concealed weapons were the cause of the loss of 32 innocent lives.

oh boy, here we go. We are going to be lectured now from across the big pond.
I hear the crime rate has really gone down since they banned most of your guns over there..
im not getting sucked into this debate ,but please stick to politics in your own country.do not lecture us, esp not at this tragic time.
want to talk fishing?, we are all ears.

[mosholu]

Originally Posted by Tinman

oh boy, here we go. We are going to be lectured now from across the big pond.
I hear the crime rate has really gone down since they banned most of your guns over there..
im not getting sucked into this debate ,but please stick to politics in your own country.do not lecture us, esp not at this tragic time.
want to talk fishing?, we are all ears.

I am a US citizen and currently working in the UK. You should be able to have a discussion with anyone about issues. I was not making any political statement pro or con re: gun control. You want to arm the cops on campus fine. Having an armed student body is probably not the way to go.

[Swimmer]

Supposedly a Korean national in the country about since he was 8 years old did this. Awful, simply awful.

[Diamond Tackle]

Originally Posted by Swimmer

Supposedly a Chinese national in the country about 18 months did this. Awful, simply awful.

Doesn't sound like a US citizen then , does it.
I guess we are a little too easy with the student visas.


Mosholu, where do you hail from in the states? Not near mosholu parkway in the Bronx by any chance is it ? cause Im very familiar with that area.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Tinman

I guess we are a little too easy with the student visas.

Actually it's the other way around. Tighter post 9/11 restrictions are keeping a lot of talent overseas.

It's pretty revolting to see this tragic incident used for emotional political statements before the blood is even dry. Sure, guns don't kill people, but there's a time and a place for that debate.

-spence

[Diamond Tackle]

Originally Posted by spence

Actually it's the other way around. Tighter post 9/11 restrictions are keeping a lot of talent overseas.
-spence

"Talent", Perhaps, "Crazy" obviously NOT. Maybe we need to screen people differently and not worry about offending non citizens by profiling. I just wonder if there is a history of mental illness here with this kid. I wonder.
The facts will speak for themselves.
and btw, how and when we DISCUSS this is also part of another one of our rights, remember the 1st amendment? No political gain, just a real tragedy, and I think there are ways to prevent this from happening again, at least to this degree.

[Swimmer]

I can tell you that the shooter could and probably did buy the weapons legally and was probably permitted. A resident alien can get a permit to carry for any number of reasons. I have issued two that I can recall recently.

I think since this guy was under treatment for depression the law should read or a law should be in place that a state and national check be done after giving a precription for treatment of depression or any other mental illness. All of these shootings have been done by people who are unfit mentally. While mental illness is certainly treatable guns and access to guns should be taken away until its amedical certainty the person has recovered.

[Diamond Tackle]

Originally Posted by Swimmer

I think since this guy was under treatment for depression the law should read or a law should be in place that a state and national check be done after giving a precription for treatment of depression or any other mental illness. All of these shootings have been done by people who are unfit mentally. While mental illness is certainly treatable guns and access to guns should be taken away until its amedical certainty the person has recovered.

BINGO!!! this covers it in a nutshell ,pardon the unintentional pun.
I got no problem with that.
Youre under a doctors care for depression, and on MEDS, you LOSE your right to your guns. PERIOND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Remember when TYSON beat up those senior citizens , cause the old guy cut him off on the road. IMAGINE if that bafoon had a gun at that time. He was so stoked on Zoloft he would have killed his own parents that day.
Since were pointing fingers at guns and all, what about the pharmaceutical companies, who make drugs which have "RAGE" & "MANIA"as a possible side effects???

[fishpoopoo]

swimmer, i think it highly unlikely that one person could disarm 20-30 people in a room. i wouldn't give up my gun - not that the shooter would ever know i was carrying one.

carrying a loaded pistol or revolver in a backpack or purse is an unsound and unsafe practice. you're responsible for whatever happens to that weapon. a loaded weapon should be on your person under your control (properly holstered). there are many many good options out there for deep concealment - be it a belly band, an ankle holster, or a tuckable IWB.

as far as a mental illness database - no such animal exists on a national level, i think. this is mostly a state thing.

problem is, you run into privacy challenges. secondly, not all mental illnesses should disqualify one from being able to have a firearm. it really depends on the individual. example: vietnam vet who is active LEO being treated for PTSD, but is still capable of CCW'ing.

i don't know how such a database would work, but don't think it would be a bad thing to have.

[Swimmer]

I hear you Bassturbed. Just offering up some fears I have with what you propose. I still like the idea that if your taking meds for depression you lose your weapons/permits.

[chris L]

Originally Posted by Swimmer

I can tell you that the shooter could and probably did buy the weapons legally and was probably permitted. A resident alien can get a permit to carry for any number of reasons. I have issued two that I can recall recently.

I think since this guy was under treatment for depression the law should read or a law should be in place that a state and national check be done after giving a precription for treatment of depression or any other mental illness. All of these shootings have been done by people who are unfit mentally. While mental illness is certainly treatable guns and access to guns should be taken away until its amedical certainty the person has recovered.

good idea wish it was easy to put into law . kinda like the people that are against national licensing . what is the hurry that you need a weapon now and not in 2 weeks . the geese going to fly away ?

the other part is he was one of their own ( student ) . how do you stop someone that has access to building that an outsider may not . we have gates with card access and keys needed for stairways and entry doors . still if one of the little darlings wanted to start a simular event , there would be no way to stop them until the damage was started .

[fishpoopoo]

Chris,

If my info is correct, the gun that was used in the shooting was legally purchased 35 days ago.

Not sure what a 2 week waiting period would accomplish.

We have the technology to do instant checks even in our home state (for valid pistol permit holders).

Not too long ago I witnessed a gun dealer call the staties for transaction approval on a handgun. He gave the staties the pistol permit number ... and then said "by the way, this man's shrink just called and told me the applicant is suicidal." The applicant was denied for a handgun purchase.

I applaud 1) the doc for having the foresight to call the dealer, and 2) the dealer for ethically volunteering the info to the staties.

We have pretty well-developed criminal history databases, but not mental illness databases. I mean, some states may have involuntary committment records that are readily available, but there's nothing that says "joe blow is taking anti-depressant meds right now."

you know, i just raised a hornet's nest on some gun chat boards about anti-depressants.

they are are apparently used for a LOT of illnesses, like heart disease, fibromyalgia, weight loss, smoking cessation, and sleeplessness, particularly amongst the older crowd. you'd be making a lot of people ineligible by restricting the rights of someone solely based on the fact that they are taking a particular medication.

[Swimmer]

Bassturbed I am familiar with the questions on the permit apps, the only problem is there is not any way of checking whether the applicant answers that question truthfully. Now with the new federal HIPPA law it will be harder to find out anything about anyones health. I refused to give a permit out twenty some odd years ago to a person I knew was lying. Moved to town, a week later walks into the p.d. and fills out the application. His father was a chief in a small town, (so why didn't he get it there), no one would give me the time of day in that town. Things were different then than now. Then you could ask about physical or mental problems. He went to court, which in Mass. is/was his right. Judge said I didn't have grounds not to issue it. So I did. A week after I gave it to him the ambulance was sent to the front of his apartment. He was on the sidewalk in the throws of a mental breakdown. Laying next to him was a gun that fell out of his coat. Took the gun and the permit. Never saw him again. Gun was melted in the local foundry, permit was shredded.

Yah Makomike I wanted to ask that question myself, but I figured I had suggested and said enough. The only one so far to have defended themselves yet was the holocaust survivor. It doesn't take much to understand that one. And that brings me to why I reasoned the way I did about armed students. Not one seemed to defend themselvves by going after the shooter, throwing a chair, table, books, whatever. Thats why I say I find it difficult to imagine anyone of them shooting someone. It is an action that has to be ingrained into a moral law-abiding person. Shooting someone is an action that is contrary to most everyones psychological makeup and generally great thought beforehand is given before one decides that they are capable of doing so.

I do believe firmly that if they want to carry they should be allowed to with proper training and guidance, no doubt about it.

[Swimmer]

Originally Posted by Bassturbed

Chris,
you know, i just raised a hornet's nest on some gun chat boards about anti-depressants.

they are are apparently used for a LOT of illnesses, like heart disease, fibromyalgia, weight loss, smoking cessation, and sleeplessness, particularly amongst the older crowd. you'd be making a lot of people ineligible by restricting the rights of someone solely based on the fact that they are taking a particular medication.

Not all criminal records can be accessed immediately. Some are on (older) micro film in different states. When you do a III (triple i) if they are on micro it can take a few weeks to get. Thats O.K. if your talking about a permit application and not a seven day buy rule. Many times the III wont come back before the hard copy of the micro fiche arrives.

Bassturbed all those physical problems you just mentioned (in quote) whose sufferers may take anti-depressants. All those people generally suffer from some form of depression do they not.

[chris L]

Originally Posted by Bassturbed

Chris,

If my info is correct, the gun that was used in the shooting was legally purchased 35 days ago.


Not sure what a 2 week waiting period would accomplish.

We have the technology to do instant checks even in our home state (for valid pistol permit holders).

Not too long ago I witnessed a gun dealer call the staties for transaction approval on a handgun. He gave the staties the pistol permit number ... and then said "by the way, this man's shrink just called and told me the applicant is suicidal." The applicant was denied for a handgun purchase.

I applaud 1) the doc for having the foresight to call the dealer, and 2) the dealer for ethically volunteering the info to the staties.

We have pretty well-developed criminal history databases, but not mental illness databases. I mean, some states may have involuntary committment records that are readily available, but there's nothing that says "joe blow is taking anti-depressant meds right now."

you know, i just raised a hornet's nest on some gun chat boards about anti-depressants.

they are are apparently used for a LOT of illnesses, like heart disease, fibromyalgia, weight loss, smoking cessation, and sleeplessness, particularly amongst the older crowd. you'd be making a lot of people ineligible by restricting the rights of someone solely based on the fact that they are taking a particular medication.

in virginia anyone can legally buy a gun . anyone ! here in ct there is a waiting period . as there should be in every state . I know what we have here in Ct I have a permit to carry also . legally obtained and properly trained . the key word you said was "(for valid pistol permit holders)." what about the ones that dont have a valid permit and are out to try an obtain their very first one . oops no instant check , why cause there wasnt one done before , were we have and all they are looking for is recent issues that would warrent them taking it away . A waiting period is a good idea , whats the rush ? nothing would have stopped this idiot from doing what he did other than a bullet in the head . Why not ask why no one responded when a teacher brought this to the authorities ? there was nothing said/done illegal , but I bet they are wishing they at least looked into it . Its proof that no matter safe the authorities and citizens of this country want it safe and secure there isnt one thing that can be done to accomplish it . this is my opinion and doesnt reflect anyone else's ideas . I dont take anti-depressants for heart disease it depresses and inflates just fine . thank you very much

[stripersnipr]

Originally Posted by mosholu

Bassturbed please come out of the bunker and smell reality.
Concealed weapons were the cause of the loss of 32 innocent lives.

Wow, I thought it was a criminal acting out on unmarmed school kids that was the cause of this. Who knew a gun in your waistband could do this all by itself.