required viewing tonight...

[Nebe]

9:00 pm on pbs-

frontline.

Bush's war part 2.

[striperman36]

Any revelations from last nights review. It seemed similar to a FL on Cheney and the presidency.

[Nebe]

yes it was similar. I had to turn it off after an hour and a half because I was so disgusted.

If every american was to watch that documentary, there would be a revolution.

I think it is going to be on the air again.

In a nutshell the documentary was about how bush and cheney used 9/11 as an excuse to go into iraq and that they were actually wanted to go into iraq before afghanistan.. All of the 'intelligence' gathered to convince the world about how bad Iraq was was bogus, and in fact the whitehouse would leak false intelligence reports to the newspapers and after they were published, they would reference them as fact..

sickening

[RIJIMMY]

I heard the commerical on the radio and thought of you Nebe, too funny.
Well, we;ve had the dems controlling congress for close to 2 years now, anything been done yet, nope.
Clinton and Obama will continue to claw at each other, in teh last two weeks, Obama's racist minister, today, Clinton lying about Bosnia. By the time their is a nominee, they'll both be too tainted to elect. I think you need to sit down and come to terms that even with Bush as a terrible president, an unpopular war, and a democratic congress, there will be a republican in the White House again.

[striperman36]

Originally Posted by Nebe

yes it was similar. I had to turn it off after an hour and a half because I was so disgusted.

If every american was to watch that documentary, there would be a revolution.

I think it is going to be on the air again.

In a nutshell the documentary was about how bush and cheney used 9/11 as an excuse to go into iraq and that they were actually wanted to go into iraq before afghanistan.. All of the 'intelligence' gathered to convince the world about how bad Iraq was was bogus, and in fact the whitehouse would leak false intelligence reports to the newspapers and after they were published, they would reference them as fact..

sickening

And the INC?? what a schill. Wasn't this Wolfewitz's end game to get Iraq?

It also was pretty much showing the departmental infight between CIA and Armed Services to be the hero.

We never should have taken on Iraq - AGAIN!!!

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by striperman36

And the INC?? what a schill. Wasn't this Wolfewitz's end game to get Iraq?

It also was pretty much showing the departmental infight between CIA and Armed Services to be the hero.

We never should have taken on Iraq - AGAIN!!!

yes striperman. There was much mentioning of wolfowitz.


Jim, rather than think of me, think of your kids. because they are the ones that are going to be paying for this mess. Watch this show if you can handle it.. This show has nothing to do with democrats and nothing to do with me.. I think your head would spin.

[striperman36]

Most of the key players except Cheney are history's footnotes. Unfortunately, like NEBE says our future generations will pay for this and prior excursions into attempts to be the global police enforcers. It's not about representing the American way of Life however, like the Cold War pitched. I am not sure what it is, it certainly doesn't represent the American majority. Let's clean up LA and AL for Chrissakes. It's still looks like a war zone outside of the major cities.

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by striperman36

It's not about representing the American way of Life however, like the Cold War pitched. I am not sure what it is, it certainly doesn't represent the American majority.

it was about securing OIL. It was also about billions of dollars in defense contracts.

would anyone in their right mind let a former coach of a NFL football team be a part of the referee team at the superbowl? No, because that is a conflict of interests. Think of who is in the whitehouse and then think of the conflict of interests going on...

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Well, we;ve had the dems controlling congress for close to 2 years now, anything been done yet, nope.

Considering Bush has used the veto pen to negate just about anything that's come across his desk, you can't really blame them alone for a lack of action.

Regarding the FL show, what really happened in the run up to Iraq has been so well documented (and accounts validated by insiders) that I think we have a pretty clear picture of what did happen aside from perhaps some individual motives.

What I don't understand is how some bemoan the reliving of these events like it's old news, when we still have men and women dying overseas and the Administration to this day stands behind their actions.

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

oil is one thing that makes no sense to me. During the 90s, Iraq could olny sell oil via the food for oil program. I'd have to assume that the volume was limited. Now, you'd think there would be an open market and Iraq's oil would be up for sale in volumes, yet - prices are through the roof. Makes no sense

[mekcotuit]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Jim, rather than think of me, think of your kids. because they are the ones that are going to be paying for this mess. Watch this show if you can handle it.. This show has nothing to do with democrats and nothing to do with me.. I think your head would spin.

Well said. I have seen the previous Frontlines that were incorporated into compiling this 2 part show. Everyone should try to watch tonight. It is just an absolute disgrace that we seem to be going along like sheep to slaughter as our country goes down the toilet due to the arrogance, selfishness and greediness of Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, et al.
I keep thinking that the biggest questions is - did the Iraqi people ask us for help in disposing of Saddam hussein? And five years later the answer is still NO. So why are we there?

Impeachable offenses are described in Article II, Section 4 of the Constitution, which defines executive powers. It states “the President, Vice President and all civil officers of the United States shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and on conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors.”

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

oil is one thing that makes no sense to me. During the 90s, Iraq could olny sell oil via the food for oil program. I'd have to assume that the volume was limited. Now, you'd think there would be an open market and Iraq's oil would be up for sale in volumes, yet - prices are through the roof. Makes no sense

Iraq's oil production was limited mostly because they had a very weak production infrastructure, which hasn't really improved all that much post war given problems with insurgents and poor management.

The good news is there's supposed to be very large reserves left in Iraq, if anyone can get at them

-spence

[Joe]

We won the Cold War because the cost of keeping up with us in the arms race bankrupted the Soviets.
So the lesson of the Cold War was that you don't defeat a super power on the battlefield, you make them spend themselves into marginalization.

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by Joe

We won the Cold War because the cost of keeping up with us in the arms race bankrupted the Soviets.
So the lesson of the Cold War was that you don't defeat a super power on the battlefield, you make them spend themselves into marginalization.

and right now China is sitting back with a big smile on their face.

[PaulS]

I wanta see how much oil our military is using in Iraq. I bet its a good chunk of what was once excess capacity.

[spence]

Originally Posted by PaulS

I wanta see how much oil our military is using in Iraq. I bet its a good chunk of what was once excess capacity.

I don't think the US has had much excess capacity in many, many decades, but here's an interesting piece I found linked to from Army.com.

http://www.energybulletin.net/13199.html

The US Department of Defense (DoD) is the largest oil consuming government body in the US and in the world

“Military fuel consumption makes the Department of Defense the single largest consumer of petroleum in the U.S” [1]

“Military fuel consumption for aircraft, ships, ground vehicles and facilities makes the DoD the single largest consumer of petroleum in the U.S” [2]

According to the US Defense Energy Support Center Fact Book 2004, in Fiscal Year 2004, the US military fuel consumption increased to 144 million barrels. This is about 40 million barrels more than the average peacetime military usage.

By the way, 144 million barrels makes 395 000 barrels per day, almost as much as daily energy consumption of Greece.

The US military is the biggest purchaser of oil in the world.

[EarnedStripes44]

I will be there! Saw part 1 last night. Could not turn away.

[RIJIMMY]

watch the show, but please, no matter what your views are, question EVERYTHING. Facts, from both sides, are presented with a slant and an agenda.

[Nebe]

um Jim. You really need to see this show before you make any coments like that. The people interviewed were people who were right there when it all happened. People who were told to 'find anything' that even remotely looked like a needle in a haystack to be used. People who were told to ignore facts that contradicted evidence that could be used to go to war.

[spence]

It's certainly good to verify sources, but you ultimately have to believe something...

I haven't seen anything from the Right on this issue other than claiming anyone who's not 100% behind the President simply wants to "get Bush" and is in bed with Osama bin Laden.

So take that into account when you watch the FL program...Where's the other side of the story? It's pretty much fallen apart and only ebraced by the fringe. The notion that we were misled into this war, and misled most of the way is now the mainstream.

-spence

[EarnedStripes44]

All this talk of Dems doing nothing in Congress, the Pubes have set congressional records blocking legislation and the session is not even over. And when the republicans were in control, filibustering was such a "horrendous abuse of minority power".

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by spence

I haven't seen anything from the Right on this issue other than claiming anyone who's not 100% behind the President simply wants to "get Bush" and is in bed with Osama bin Laden.



-spence

There is one other behavior.
When you mention these facts to a republican supporter, they quickly say 'well the democrats are no better' or.. 'well this is all clinton's mess' or..... well you get the idea.

zero acountability. Its almost like those in the %$%$%$%$ehouse are above the law. No wait, they change the law to fit thier policies.

[RIJIMMY]

I think bush is 100% accountable.
I posted a long response, but I am a little under the weather and tired of this debate (its been 4 years out here!).
History will define whether it was the right move or not. I beleive the US needed a major show of force in the mid east, Iraq was the easiest target. I think Saddam was a threat to the oil supply and like it or not - resources are a major factor in teh US if we want to maintain our standard of living.
Im critical of the dems in that their major stance for the elections was to end the war, whihc they have been unsuccessful and I hear no new ideas from Obama or Clinton.

[Nebe]

History has already defined itself. It has been proven over and over agian that the world was lied to about the reasons that we should have gone in there.

[RIJIMMY]

its an old story.......

The Pearl Harbor advance-knowledge debate is a dispute over what, if any, advance knowledge American officials had of Japan's December 7, 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor.

Ever since the Japanese attack there has been debate as to how and why the United States had been caught unawares, and how much and when American officials knew of Japanese plans and related topics. Several writers, including journalist Robert Stinnett and former United States Navy Rear Admiral Robert A. Theobald, have argued that various parties high in the U.S. and British governments knew of the attack in advance and may even have let it happen or encouraged it in order to force America into war via the "back door." Evidence supporting this view is taken from quotations and source documents from the time and the release of newer materials.

[spence]

Pearl Harbor...are you n#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g futz?

We're talking about civilian leadership still making decisions that translate into lives and dollars...the same civilian leaders that listened to the neocon whack jobs who saw the things you and I couldn't see.

-spence

[Nebe]

I dont think he is nuts spence, i do however think he is grasping at straws.

where were all of those weapons of mass distruction?

[Flaptail]

"A GOVERNMENT FOR THE PEOPLE AND BY THE PEOPLE"

Well, it's a nice thought.

Wer'e on a highway to hell.

The Russian govt is corrupt
The Chinese are slimly holding on to thier "Communist Dream"
The Mideast will never change
The Europeans are better off than we are
The worlds religions are a main cause of terror and war
And most disgusting of all is what the United States Government has become.

It is time for a Revolution but most of the United States Citizenry is too fat dumb and happy to see the writing on the wall.

No wonder my two kids want to live in Canada after college.

[Bronko]

Wow. The gang is all lathered up today.

[Nebe]

ahoy mr president!