Surf Spin Rod for Braided Line

[Saltheart]

How many guides will that SSU have built that way and how big are the smallest guides near the tip Mike?

[zimmy]

I agree w/ saltheart to some extent on the small guide thing. I found no difference in performance going to say size 8 guides as compared to 10 or 12. Shockers completely limit the use of smaller guides in my experience (I don't use em anyway unless I am throwing 6 oz plus a chunk). However, if you aren't going to use a shocker and you aren't worried about weeds accumulating in the guides you can probably go with a 10 or 12. Even if 12 is going to be the smallest, four 12's along the tip in place of the 20, 16, and 12 that would otherwise be there might make a big difference. I found absolutely no benefit going with a 25 or even a 30 gathering guide with a reel like a 706 and it actually negatively impacted the performance of the rod. Others swear buy starting with the small gathering guide, however, I have never found anyone who builds like that who checks for line slap; I sould not got rid of line slap with a 30. As a kinda related aside, I have a buddy who has an arra 1205 wrapped with the older standard of 5 or 6 guides starting with a 50. He doesn't like the rod and almost never fishes it. The other night I decided to hand him the one I built using the new guide concept and he said it felt completely different than his. It is worth at least taping em on and trying it out.

[ReelinRod]

Originally Posted by zimmy

I found absolutely no benefit going with a 25 or even a 30 gathering guide with a reel like a 706 and it actually negatively impacted the performance of the rod. Others swear buy starting with the small gathering guide, however, I have never found anyone who builds like that who checks for line slap; I sould not got rid of line slap with a 30.

Using such a large diameter reel starts you off with a huge handicap in controlling the line thrown off by it. This is a situation where the coils directly determine the first guide's distance from the reel.

If one were to put a 706 on a rod with just a tip-top and cast it would there be line slap? Perhaps in the first few coils coming off the reel depending on the smoothness of the release (and at the very end because of the shortness of the spool) but the coils would settle and form a predictable ever deceasing sized cone never touching the rod.

When you put a smaller guide in the same spot as the bigger guide you are eliminating you can create slap. Having line coils striking it at a hard angle creates an effect where the line, instead of being controlled by the guide is swept out into a coil larger than the line was before it hit the guide. Under high velocity this line trying to funnel itself into the guide will blow-by the guide and you get a guide wrap.

Anybody can try this; tape the reel on the opposite side of the reel seat and just run the line through the tip and carefully give it some moderate (not full power) casts and watch the line. Pick a spot where the line coils are about 45 - 50mm in diameter and tape a 40mm guide there (for a smaller diameter reel pick a spot with coils 35 - 40mm and tape a 30mm there). Static test for the rest. Give it some casts . . .

You will end up with a much different layout than what is on the other side of the rod, probably one fewer guide and much smoother and less problematic line flow.

Originally Posted by SAUERKRAUT

For practical fishing, I hate shockers EVERY CAST; however, they save fish for me when I'm in the boulders. I actually have some good photos and a couple of dramatic souvenir shock leaders I save-- frayed, kinked and near severed and destroyed along their entire lenghs of 12 to 20 feet...but I got the fish unwrapped from a right angle turn from around some obstruction and landed. The extra heavy "shocker" braid is something I will try; but I don't envision braid of any pound test as good as mono for this type of abrasion abuse.

I agree there are reasons to use a mono leader and I am not advocating the use of lowriders only, just using them as an example that people shouldn't be hesitant to buck tradition and go with smaller guides. Beginning with a 40 or 30 and ending with 12's is always better than starting with a 50 or more . . . The guides just need to be put in in the right spots. Try my exercise above.

Originally Posted by numbskull

IF you can get the guides positioned right and avoid line slap (not a small IF) the lowrider supposedly gives you the best distance.......but leaves a long section of unsupported blank (and sharp line angle under load) between the reel and first guide. Whether that matters or not, I don't know. Reelin Rod can probably tell you.

I'm not a big worrier about the unsupported area; I avoid high sticking like the plague and I just don't think that normal fishing conditions overstress the rod.

The biggest bass I have caught on the rod pictured above was 36lbs but it has red drum to 47 inches on it. The rod is under greatest stress during the cast and let's just say I put it through hell in that regard.

Here I am bombing out a baseball to my son with the 1507 (great fly practice for him ):

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by Saltheart

How many guides will that SSU have built that way and how big are the smallest guides near the tip Mike?

Just for your interest, I built a SSU 1201mh using tnsg 10-10-10-Tvsg 16-25-Svsg 40 this winter for a reel with a 2.5" diameter spool (22mm reel seat). Spacing from tip is 5.5, 13,21.5,33,47,63.5 with the spool lip approx 33 from the collector, but a reel seat 22" from the butt to the reel stem which I found to be too short and ended up extending to 24" (for a rod length of 10'2"). It casts quite well, handles significant fish well and is substantially less tip heavy than the Lami setup. I have used it only with fireline so how it would do with powerpro I can't say. It did not do well casting a shocker (although I cast shockers all the time through 10's on conventional stuff). Looks strange with the nsgs.

I wouldn't advocate following this pattern exactly, I think it could be better (maybe with a 30HH-20H-12-12-12-12 all vsgs). I also suspect that it wouldn't do well with a 706 and mono. I think the stock Lami is set up conservatively to handle mono as well as braid, different sized reels and provide a strength reserve for highsticking so it has more and larger guides than an ideal new concept system on a rod dedicated to fishing braid.

Casual readers should also be aware that the fuji new concept system is much different than the lowrider system, which puts a small first guide way out the rod (47" from the reel) and was designed for big distance rods (12-15 ft) as far as I understand it. There are guys who have used it on rods as short as 9 feet....but they are experienced builders pushing the system into uncharted territory. In contrast, the new concept system establishes a choke point at the intersection of the reel shaft angle and rod (hence it is reel and reel seat specific), puts the smallest guide there, then continues the same size guide to the tip, then uses a collector 1/2 the spool diameter (which tends to end up pretty close to the reel) and 1-2 reduction guides to get the line down to the size of the choke guide. It's advantage is to get the braid under control faster, reduce guide loops, and make the rod less tip heavy and more responsive. Casting distance is supposedly not much better than the old cone of flight method used with mono, but that method is more prone to guide loops with braid.

For the record, I'm no authority on new guide systems (just read a fair amount on it this winter). I get the idea, however, that very few rod builders have a whole lot of experience building surf rods yet with either the new concept or lowrider options. Pretty sure that will change since the lightness and crispness makes the rod more pleasurable to fish.

[mikecc]

Originally Posted by Saltheart

How many guides will that SSU have built that way and how big are the smallest guides near the tip Mike?

Fuji BLCAG 20,16,(2)-12 ,(3)-10 & a 10 tip
I don't want to go with any #8 because I see to much failure in the rings.

[scottw]

no expert, only posting this because I don't know how many guys are fishing this setup or building them but thought you might want to hear feedback

Mike, I used 20-16-12-12-12-12-10tip on a 1266 loomis BMNAG's

42"reel to gathering guide then
17 3/4...9....8 1/2...8 1/4....7 1/4....7

I'm sure that this can be improved by someone more knowledgable

I've been throwing this w/ a bailess spheros 14000 and 50 lb power pro for about 100 trips this year and not a hitch, not even a single wind knot which I know causes a lot of headaches for guys and the only plug snapped off was my own fault rushing a cast ...smaller fish are fun because of the sensetivity of the top and lager fish seem to really have their weight distributed down the blank...it's a very light and powerful rod...I'd like to make an 11' this winter...

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by mikecc

Fuji BLCAG 20,16,(2)-12 ,(3)-10 & a 10 tip
I don't want to go with any #8 because I see to much failure in the rings.

Mike, just to avoid confusion, isn't this a "lowrider" setup, not a "new concept" setup (as you referred to in your initial post).

Likewise, Scottw, I think you've built a lowrider set up using new concept (BMNAG) guides, which is fine since it works. Fuji's instructions for their new concept guide spacing would use a larger guide much closer to the reel seat.

Again, there are now three accepted ways to set up a long spinning rod.....the standard time tested "cone of flight system", the more recent "new concept" system, and the still newer distance casting "low rider" system. It seems agreed that casting distance is best with a properly setup low rider system, but setting it up properly on rods less than 12 feet is still a work in progress (particularly when employing a wide spool reel like the emcast) and there remains the disadvantage of a long spool to gathering guide distance that distributes the load when fighting a large fish way up the blank.