Waterboarding

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

While i didn't agree with Bush on A LOT of his policies, even hindsight on the terrorist attacks forgets
we were flying by the seat of our pants in unknown threats.

Right after 9/11 I'd agree. And at that time I thought the Administration acted with a pretty cool head. It was after we had a chance to think about our actions that things really went awry. That worries me...

Mistakes were made for sure, but we were kept safe for his entire term.

Did he?

Firstly, I've never heard anything that indicates we've stopped any credible terrorist attacks in the US since 9/11. Most of the successes touted by Bush have been a bunch of half-wits tricked into guilt by the FBI.

After 9/11, there have been many serious terrorist attacks outside of the US on our allies, London, Madrid etc...

And perhaps most importantly. Since 9/11 we've lost 4273 American service members in Iraq, another 1000 or so contractors and what will be over a trillion in spending. All for what as a result? To overthrow a dictator who wasn't involved in 9/11 and posed little threat to the USA? To free a country that's probably going to be closer to Iran than us when it's all said and done?

It doesn't sound like we've kept Americans all that safe.

For me and my family living 16 miles from ground zero, my son in law, a pilot flying a 767 that morning non stop to LA from Kennedy leaving at 8 am, not knowing his plane was safe until 11:30, loosing 2 young friends of ours in the towers and knowing what their families still go through, and knowing we are in close proximity to other possible targets, I for one am very greatful for his keeping us safe.

It's easy to Monday morning 1/4 back, but you have to give him credit, if for nothing else, his policy worked in keeping us safe.
Glad I didn't have to make any of those decisions.

I don't think any of this has been easy, and I'm not one who believes that Bush or Cheney are evil. I do think they did what they thought was good for the American people.

That being said, I think at times they've (or more importanly those around around them) have conflated US interests with their own interests.

I've said often and I'll say again. Stay a true course and people will forgive your mistakes. But if you're often straying then things are open for scruitny. It seems like Bush strayed and often...

-spence

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

Did he?

Firstly, I've never heard anything that indicates we've stopped any credible terrorist attacks in the US since 9/11.

-spence

No sense in speculating on that, none of us will ever know for sure,
unless top secret documents are released at some time, if ever.

We weren't attacked on our own soil after 9/11 and that is ALL we know for sure.

I hope that continues under Obama's watch.

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

No sense in speculating on that, none of us will ever know for sure,
unless top secret documents are released at some time, if ever.

We weren't attacked on our own soil after 9/11 and that is ALL we know for sure.

I hope that continues under Obama's watch.

My hope is that our interests are not attacked, which might be very difficult to stop.

As bad as 9/11 was, a nuke or like minded attack in the Middle East could prove to be far, far worse.

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by spence

My hope is that our interests are not attacked, which might be very difficult to stop.

As bad as 9/11 was, a nuke or like minded attack in the Middle East could prove to be far, far worse.

-spence

As long as no one from my family was in the Middle EAst and there were no significant American casualties I can give an F less if there is attack there. How an attack on foreign soil can be worse than one of US soil is beyond comprehension to me.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

As long as no one from my family was in the Middle EAst and there were no significant American casualties I can give an F less if there is attack there. How an attack on foreign soil can be worse than one of US soil is beyond comprehension to me.

First off it would probably shut off 1/3 of the oil flowing to global markets throwing our economy off the edge. Then the energy wars begin...

-spence

[Swimmer]

We will know about what plans may or may not have been foiled if someone gets charged with a crime in relation to the waterboarding uproar. Any defendent will have access through evidence disclosure. We all know secrets wont be divulged, so no one in the end will be charged. So in essense all Obama is doing is using the torture for his own political gain, which is cheap. At least Bush was trying to elicit plans for other 9-11's before they happened. And I'm not saying torture is the way to go, at least all the time. But what is worse, making solid your political career, or trying to save us more torment.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Swimmer

We will know about what plans may or may not have been foiled if someone gets charged with a crime in relation to the waterboarding uproar. Any defendent will have access through evidence disclosure.

You are right Swimmer, if Leahy and Congers have their way and Obama goes along,
all that top secret info will be exposed.

Very dangerous precedent will be set if they go ahead with this, as every
administration's policies in the future will be subject to be scrutinized after
their terms, when policies are changed.

Talk about dividing the country.