Burning the Koran

[scottw]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

um, er, ah, um - whats that have to do with some guy buring a book?

they are victims

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by scottw

they are victims

makes sense. Also, how does Spence's reply factor into all the Muslim unrest in the rest of the world you posted? I love the Sweden one. Those swedes are an intolerant bunch. yes, its everyones fault. They have a right to their actions.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

makes sense. Also, how does Spence's reply factor into all the Muslim unrest in the rest of the world you posted? I love the Sweden one. Those swedes are an intolerant bunch. yes, its everyones fault. They have a right to their actions.

I think Europe shares a lot of the blame for their issues with Islam, which of course, have their roots in history along with a general intolerance of outsiders in general.

For instance the flap last year in Switzerland to constitutionally ban the construction of minarets was driven by the Right wing through a campaign of fear similar to what we've seen here at home. France has had many issues with Islam, as they've never dealt with the assimilation of north African colonies. Sweeden's problems probably have more to do with the collapse of the welfare state more than anything else...and ABBA.

Of course, America is (and is) supposed to be different. We should be setting the standard rather than using the failure of others as an excuse for average or bad behavior.

It won't surprise me at all if we see actual legislation being proposed to limit the "spread" of Islam in the US just as they already have in Europe. The seeds have already been planted...

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

I think Europe shares a lot of the blame for their issues with Islam, which of course, have their roots in history along with a general intolerance of outsiders in general.

For instance the flap last year in Switzerland to constitutionally ban the construction of minarets was driven by the Right wing through a campaign of fear similar to what we've seen here at home. France has had many issues with Islam, as they've never dealt with the assimilation of north African colonies. Sweeden's problems probably have more to do with the collapse of the welfare state more than anything else...and ABBA.

Of course, America is (and is) supposed to be different. We should be setting the standard rather than using the failure of others as an excuse for average or bad behavior.

It won't surprise me at all if we see actual legislation being proposed to limit the "spread" of Islam in the US just as they already have in Europe. The seeds have already been planted...

-spence

see..it's not Islam... it's everyone else that makes them mad and want to burn things and kill people
hey Spence, you do know that in Europe the right is really the left, right?

[spence]

Originally Posted by scottw

see..it's not Islam... it's everyone else that makes them mad and want to burn things and kill people
hey Spence, you do know that in Europe the right is really the left, right?

Well, that's not at all what I said. Perhaps that's your problem...understanding that another viewpoint exists isn't an endorsement.

And no, the left in the EU isn't the reverse of our Right. You're just confusing parliamentary parties in the UK.

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

Well, that's not at all what I said. Perhaps that's your problem...understanding that another viewpoint exists isn't an endorsement.

-spence

didn't say it was an endorsement...more like a very weak defense and shifting blame...it's not Islam..it is Europe's inability to embrace Islam and unwillingness to support the spread of Islam with never ending social welfare programmes...if only they were more tolerant in Europe

Caldwell: There is no welfare state on the scale of that in Europe, and I think welfare states are a bad fit for large-scale immigration. In an ethnically diverse society, people are less familiar with each other, and they are correspondingly less willing to pay taxes for social benefits. Two-thirds of the imams in France are on welfare. There is nothing wrong with being an imam. But I don't think the French are very happy about paying what is effectively a state subsidy for religion in that way.

Interview conducted by Mathieu von Rohr

pretty good interview from der spiegel
Christopher Caldwell on Muslim Integration: 'It's Much Better If Things Are Discussed Openly' - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

[Nebe]

i destroyed mine this morning..

[spence]

Originally Posted by scottw

didn't say it was an endorsement...more like a very weak defense and shifting blame...it's not Islam..it is Europe's inability to embrace Islam and unwillingness to support the spread of Islam with never ending social welfare programmes...

You were assuming culpability, I was simply assessing the situation. A lot of Islamic immigration to the EU is a result of colonialism which gives them legal rights to government services. Many European countries have well established welfare systems and many Europeans have a history of intolerance to outsiders.

I don't think any of this is really debatable, it all adds to the formula and little of it is driven by the Muslims themselves...

Or are you asserting that European actions over the past two centuries haven't contributed to the situation?

Caldwell: There is no welfare state on the scale of that in Europe, and I think welfare states are a bad fit for large-scale immigration. In an ethnically diverse society, people are less familiar with each other, and they are correspondingly less willing to pay taxes for social benefits. Two-thirds of the imams in France are on welfare. There is nothing wrong with being an imam. But I don't think the French are very happy about paying what is effectively a state subsidy for religion in that way.

I'd generally agree with this, but also note that it's the Francophiles and not the Imams really in charge of future French policy.

-spence

[Fly Rod]

Originally Posted by scottw

they are victims

Victims of what?

[spence]

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

Victims of what?

Lame sarcasm.

-spence

[justplugit]

I would suggest Rauf sit down with the Muslim moderates and watch
"The Day The Towers Fell."

As a religious people they should be able to see why the area around the 16 acres destroyed is sacred ground
and how their building would adversely affect the families,friends and citizens of our country.

It's a no brain-er for a people who do care about others.

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

I would suggest Rauf sit down with the Muslim moderates and watch
"The Day The Towers Fell."

As a religious people they should be able to see why the area around the 16 acres destroyed is sacred ground
and how their building would adversely affect the families,friends and citizens of our country.

It's a no brain-er for a people who do care about others.

If it's that sacred, shouldn't the larger area be turned into a gigantic park? Do the strip clubs and bars that are there today make the proper statement of remembrance? Should we allow any new construction?

If it's Islam that offends the sanctity of the location, shouldn't we also prohibit Muslims, or at least traditional Islamic dress visible to others?

You do know the planned location is already used as a mosque today. Should we have this shut down immediately?

-spence

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

If it's that sacred, shouldn't the larger area be turned into a gigantic park? Do the strip clubs and bars that are there today make the proper statement of remembrance? Should we allow any new construction?

If it's Islam that offends the sanctity of the location, shouldn't we also prohibit Muslims, or at least traditional Islamic dress visible to others?

You do know the planned location is already used as a mosque today. Should we have this shut down immediately?

-spence

Spence, you just don't get it, your over the top.

This has nothing to do with what bars, strip clubs, Mosques or garbs that were there before the attack.

It has to do with the sesnsitivity for the families and friends of the victims
after an insane attack against innocent people.

Any religion should take that sesnitivity into consideration.

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

Spence, you just don't get it, your over the top.

This has nothing to do with what bars, strip clubs, Mosques or garbs that were there before the attack.

It has to do with the sesnsitivity for the families and friends of the victims
after an insane attack against innocent people.

Any religion should take that sesnitivity into consideration.

Unless the issue isn't Islam itself, how is the presence of Muslims near Ground Zero insensitive? It's not like the attack killed only Christians, Hindus, Atheists and Jews.

If the 9/11 families and friends (i.e. most all of America) have a problem with Islam, that is the white elephant in the room that should be discussed. Not turn the presence of a mosque, that already exists (I believe it opened after 9/11), into a political circus.

If the objective is sensitivity, then the most vocal critics certainly have failed miserably. The rallies today protesting both sides of the mosque issue are a perfect example.

-spence

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by justplugit

I would suggest Rauf sit down with the Muslim moderates and watch
"The Day The Towers Fell."

As a religious people they should be able to see why the area around the 16 acres destroyed is sacred ground
and how their building would adversely affect the families,friends and citizens of our country.

It's a no brain-er for a people who do care about others.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spence, my original post has nothing to do with the questions you posted about it.

It's self explanatory, and has to do with Islam being at heart a peaceful religion, with teachings of religious tolerance and respect for others.

Therefore imo, they should be understanding of the feelings of the ones whose lives were forever affected by the evil act by a radical group of their religion.

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spence, my original post has nothing to do with the questions you posted about it.

It's self explanatory, and has to do with Islam being at heart a peaceful religion, with teachings of religious tolerance and respect for others.

Therefore imo, they should be understanding of the feelings of the ones whose lives were forever affected by the evil act by a radical group of their religion.

This, in my opinion, is implicating all of Islam in the attack. Just like all the Japanese on the west coast of the US were implicated in Pearl Harbor.

New York is a very diverse city, and Muslims already live, work and pray in the shadow of the twin towers. Muslims (no, not the hijackers smartass) were killed in the attacks.

To say that a cultural center intended to promote interfaith communication (and equal rights for women, perhaps one of the central issues within Islam today) is not sensitive because of a shared faith with Bin Laden doesn't make any sense to me.

Just because they both call it Islam they clearly don't really share the same faith.

Given the large amount of mistrust of Islam in this country I can see how some might feel offended regardless. That being said, a solution based on fear doesn't seem logical if the objective really is peace.

As I've mentioned earlier, this issue seems to have always been about the (partially manufactured) controversy, and not really about the actual center itself and Imam and his wife.

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

Victims of what?

victims of non-muslim oppression dating back to the Crusades and victims of hate whose flames have been fanned through the ages by the "right-wing" with hateful propoganda created for political purposes unjustly characterizing Islam as the one religeon causing great disturbance around the globe...

the Swiss banned the minarets because they didn't want those islamic missiles dotting their pristine countryside...have you see a picture of those things? I told you NASA should build the GZ Mosque..right up their alley...