Why can't teachers/cops live with 401(k)'s instead of pensions?

[zimmy]

Jim, thanks for the answer. I think what you are missing is that if you look at teachers as "public servants" and we should be just below the average of people, then public education won't work. I see us more as professional educators who's job is to educate. That requires a particular skill set and education. My education has cost me a tremendous amount of money, that I pay every month. I also pay taxes here, so I am affected by them as well. I could not afford to teach if my salary after 10 years was less than 34000, which is equal to 1/2 the household income you stated. The only fair comparison is teachers to other professionals, because that is what we are. If doctors made $40,000 health care costs would be lower. If electricians charged less , it would be cheaper to build houses and schools. Teachers are skilled workers, not a bit below the public we serve and that is why teachers cost money. If teachers aren't paid as skilled professionals then no one will teach. By the way, alot of private school teachers do very well as they are often compensated in other ways.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by zimmy

Teachers are skilled workers, not a bit below the public we serve and that is why teachers cost money. If teachers aren't paid as skilled professionals then no one will teach.

do you ever look at the gym teacher or home ec. teacher with 11 years under his/her belt pulling down the same salary and benefits as you and just shake your head?

I think that one of the biggest obstacles teachers have when advocating for their profession, salaries, benefits is that most of us have around at least 12 years experience with teachers to reflect on....

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by zimmy

Jim, thanks for the answer. I think what you are missing is that if you look at teachers as "public servants" and we should be just below the average of people, then public education won't work. I see us more as professional educators who's job is to educate. That requires a particular skill set and education. My education has cost me a tremendous amount of money, that I pay every month. I also pay taxes here, so I am affected by them as well. I could not afford to teach if my salary after 10 years was less than 34000, which is equal to 1/2 the household income you stated. The only fair comparison is teachers to other professionals, because that is what we are. If doctors made $40,000 health care costs would be lower. If electricians charged less , it would be cheaper to build houses and schools. Teachers are skilled workers, not a bit below the public we serve and that is why teachers cost money. If teachers aren't paid as skilled professionals then no one will teach. By the way, alot of private school teachers do very well as they are often compensated in other ways.

Zimmy, you didn't even try to answer my question. I answered yours directly, you dodged mine. Not fair.

"and we should be just below the average of people, then public education won't work"

I'm 41 years old. When I was in grade school, public school teacher compensation was a disgrace. We all know that. But I still got a great education. So I categorically deny your claim that public education doesn't work if you cut compensation. As I said earlier, there isn't a shred of correlation between student performance and teacher compensation. I don't want teacher compensation to go back to what it was when I was a kid, but you can't ask taxpayers to kill themselves for your benefits, either. You need to be able to live on what we can reasonably provide to you. If our current tax rates still leave my family in debt to you to the tune of $50k, then we are at a crazy place.

"My education has cost me a tremendous amount of money, that I pay every month"

Me too. The difference is, I have to make people want to voluntarily give me money to repay my loans. You get to take it from me through force of law.

"The only fair comparison is teachers to other professionals, because that is what we are"

Fine. WHY ARE TEACHERS THE LAST PROFESSIONALS IN THE WORLD WHO STILL HAVE PENSIONS? Why can't you address that question?


"If teachers aren't paid as skilled professionals then no one will teach. "

Bullsh*t. Pure bullsh*t. First, private schools pay a fraction of what public schools pay, and those schools manage to find great teachers. And back when I was a kid, when teacher pay was appallingly low, schools found folks to teach. With the private sector as tattered as it is, don't you dare suggest that if teachers had to switch to 401(k)s, no one would teach. God that's dishonest.

Zimmy, I'm a reasonable guy. I've done my homework on this issue, and I have thought it through from every angle. You won't get me with a "gotcha" question. And we all know the reason why you dodged the direct questions I asked you...because there is no rational answer as to why teachers cstubbornly refuse to live with benefits comparable to taxpayers who pay your salaries.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by zimmy

The only fair comparison is teachers to other professionals, because that is what we are. .

Fine. All other professionals (lawyers, doctors, accountants, engineers, actuaries) switched from pensions to 401(k)s 20 years ago, because we could no longer pass the cost of pensions on to our customers.

Why do teachers feel justified in FORCING that expense on to their customers (and that's a fair term, because I cannot choose not to pay), when the entire private sector realized 20 years ago that was an unreasonable burden?

Have a lot of fun with that one, pal.