Incredible - No liberal bias, huh?

[Chesapeake Bill]

Scott,

I think he's a lunatic. I suspect he fishes with as much passion as he writes on this board.

NC is one of four states that does not tax federal retirements. Much of the growth in that state has been retirees moving there so they can experience reduced taxes. As far as wages, outside of RTP workers do not make much. Look at the jobs that are offered on Monster and compare the salaries.

Anyway, you focused on one minute point rather than discuss the value (if you can call it that) that unions bring to a region. Don't get me wrong. I am not defending them. Merely pointing out how the economy changes as a result of their actions, often to the good of the citizens who are not represented (also often to the detriment especially when the jobs go offshore as in textiles).

Also, as a 14th generation dutchman who can trace his lineage to the 1640's in the Hudson Valley (and who also grew up just a stone's throw from Lancaster County) if you want to know about the "Penn's Woods Germans" I'd be happy to discuss. I agree that the history lesson is at best amusing.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Chesapeake Bill

Scott,

Anyway, you focused on one minute point rather than discuss the value (if you can call it that) that unions bring to a region. Don't get me wrong. I am not defending them. Merely pointing out how the economy changes as a result of their actions, often to the good of the citizens who are not represented (also often to the detriment especially when the jobs go offshore as in textiles).

seems to me that the highly unionized regions are all buckling from their inability to pay current union wages and benefits and in addition have no way to pay the unfunded obligations that have been promised, that includes some private sector unions as well, you can say that it was politicians that allowed this in the public sector but they were working in conjunction with union bosses, a cozy symbiotic relationship that resulted in reelection and protected status....whatever positive that you'd like to attribut to unions in the form of baseline wages?...the net is a huge loss that we will be feeling for some time...these same unions have actively advocated as a block and provided enormous amounts of funding for politicians who have expanded many of the other massive entitlements that threaten our future..."often to the good of the citizens who are not represented" those not represented will be paying the maxed out union credit card and all that it has purchased for a very long time...

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Chesapeake Bill

Scott,



Also, as a 14th generation dutchman who can trace his lineage to the 1640's in the Hudson Valley (and who also grew up just a stone's throw from Lancaster County) if you want to know about the "Penn's Woods Germans" I'd be happy to discuss. I agree that the history lesson is at best amusing.

I'm in, always up for learning history.

[scottw]

Bluest states also most in debt, highly unionized and solidly Democrat (But that's all coincidental, right?)

By: Mark Tapscott 02/28/10 4:00 AM
Editorial Page Editor Follow Him @mtapscott

.Forbes magazine has completed a comprehensive look at "The Global Debt Bomb" and in the course of compiling the results found this very interesting tidbit:

"The five states in the worst financial condition--Illinois, New York, Connecticut, California and New Jersey--are all among the bluest of blue states. The five most fiscally fit states are more of a mix. Three--Utah, Nebraska and Texas--boast Republican majorities and two--New Hampshire and Virginia--skew Democratic."

But wait, it's actually more serious than that when you look at the 10 states in the worst financial condition, according to Forbes:

"Of the 10 states in the worst financial condition, eight are among a total of 23 defined by Gallup as "solidly Democratic," meaning the Democrats enjoy an advantage of 10 percentage points or greater in party affiliation. These states include the ones listed above as making up the bottom five, plus Massachusetts, Ohio and Wisconsin.

"Of the three other basement-dwellers, Kentucky is defined as "leaning Democratic" (a five- to 10-percentage-point Democratic advantage) and the remaining two--Louisiana and Mississippi--are termed politically "Competitive" (less than a five-percentage-point advantage for either party). Louisiana tilts slightly Democratic and Mississippi slightly Republican."

Forbes quotes an Illinois political science professor who explains why these rankings turn out as they do:

"Why do Democratic states appear to be struggling more than Republican ones? It comes down to stronger unions and a larger appetite for public programs, according to Kent Redfield, professor emeritus of political studies and public affairs at the University of Illinois' Center for State Policy and Leadership.

"'Unions in general have more influence in Democratic-controlled states,' he says. 'This isn't to say that unions are bad, but where they're strong you have bigger demands for social services and coalitions with construction companies, road builders and others that push up debt.'"

Read more at the Washington Examiner: Bluest states also most in debt, highly unionized and solidly Democrat (But that's all coincidental, right?) | Mark Tapscott | Beltway Confidential | Washington Examiner

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by Chesapeake Bill

Scott,

I think he's a lunatic. .

are you not following Zimmy's posts? He puts in incorrect info, I correct him and he goes on off on a tangent. heres a quick recap

Zimmy stated:

our country's 400 yr history.
- makes no sense. plenty of evidence above

Jamestown was founded on "principles"
- nope, business venture. Zim as agreed after 20 posts.

The Pennsylvania Dutch came here for religious freedom
- nope, thats like saying the massachusetts indians. No one was in another country and called themselves that. If he said dutch, germans or whatever, then it would make sense.

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

The Pennsylvania Dutch came here for religious freedom
- nope, thats like saying the massachusetts indians.

I was gonna stay away, but the funniest friggin thing is the Massachusetts Indians were part of the Wampanoag tribe. There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying Massachusetts Indians This is certainly enlightening stuff

[scottw]

Originally Posted by zimmy

I was gonna stay away, but the funniest friggin thing is the . This is certainly enlightening stuff

nope....this was the funniest friggin thing and also the most absurd...

"Again, all these issues are really complex.
Also, based on policies, Reagan would be a democrat today, not tea party. "ZIMMY

don't stay away Zimmy, you and Jimmy have developed some real chemistry...

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by scottw

nope....this was the funniest friggin thing and also the most absurd...

"Again, all these issues are really complex.
Also, based on policies, Reagan would be a democrat today, not tea party. "ZIMMY

don't stay away Zimmy, you and Jimmy have developed some real chemistry...

hey DN, how many times did he raise taxes? What did he do with illegal immigrants? Department of veterans affairs? Then how about JHWB? Raised taxes. JWB- huge expansion. You really are not very competent with your arguments.

[spence]

Originally Posted by zimmy

hey DN, how many times did he raise taxes? What did he do with illegal immigrants? Department of veterans affairs? Then how about JHWB? Raised taxes. JWB- huge expansion. You really are not very competent with your arguments.

Wow, this thread really took off. I need to travel less

Zimmy, I think you're missing the point about Reagan. His personal philosophy certainly wouldn't have allowed him to "call" himself a Democrat.

That being said, as you've noted Reagan's actual behavior was quite different from the image most people have. He had no problem raising taxes, running from a fight, increasing the size of government and our national debt, working deals with our enemies and on and on...

Oddly enough, Reagan seems to be the most significant figure aspiring Republican candidates want to emulate.

He did tell a great story and make us feel good though...

-spence

[scottw]

apparently Spence has at least one neighbor in bizarro world

JHWB...JWB...???

never mind..I Googled it..."Just Handshakes We're British"...still confused ......but OK...you are the smart one

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by spence

Wow, this thread really took off. I need to travel less

Zimmy, I think you're missing the point about Reagan. His personal philosophy certainly wouldn't have allowed him to "call" himself a Democrat.

That being said, as you've noted Reagan's actual behavior was quite different from the image most people have. He had no problem raising taxes, running from a fight, increasing the size of government and our national debt, working deals with our enemies and on and on...

Oddly enough, Reagan seems to be the most significant figure aspiring Republican candidates want to emulate.

He did tell a great story and make us feel good though...

-spence

You are right. I specified that his policies would make him a democrat. But you are right, he wouldn't affiliate with the democratic party. Tea party would not like his policies, though. The new members of the Republic party would not like his policies. Way too liberal.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

Zimmy, I think you're missing the point about Reagan. His personal philosophy certainly wouldn't have allowed him to "call" himself a Democrat.



-spence

Spence wasn't Regan a Democrat and switched parties when he supported Barry Goldwater, "Mr. Conservative",
when he ran in the 60's?

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Chesapeake Bill

Scott,


NC is one of four states that does not tax federal retirements. Much of the growth in that state has been retirees moving there so they can experience reduced taxes.

businessfacilities.com 2010 state rankings

Economic Growth Potential
1. South Carolina
2. Tennessee
3. Virginia
4. North Carolina
5. Texas
6. Arizona

Best Business Climate
1. Texas
2. Virginia
3. Utah
4. South Carolina
5. Tennessee
6. North Carolina

Workforce Training Leaders
1. Louisiana
2. Georgia
3. New Mexico
4. Florida
5. North Carolina

probably as a result of all of those retirees moving there for tax reasons those southern states are a disaster

10/15/10 - North Carolina ranked 3rd by Forbes for Best States for Business

Gov. Bev Perdue on Oct. 14 announced Forbes magazine is ranking North Carolina as the 3rd Best State for Business in America. North Carolina improved from last year’s Forbes ranking of fifth. In addition, the Governor announced that recent statistics from the Federal Bureau of Labor and Statistics show North Carolina is the 3rd best state for declining unemployment and 4th in the nation for job creation.

In the Forbes rankings, North Carolina scored third in Business Costs and Regulatory Environment and ninth in Growth Prospect. Forbes scored the states on six measures including business cost, labor supply, regulatory environment, economic climate, growth prospect and quality of life.

let's see...North Carolina...or Michigan, RI...etc...?

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by scottw

businessfacilities.com 2010 state rankings



let's see...North Carolina...or Michigan, RI...etc...?

funny thing, statistics. NC top tier in business climate, but when you look directly at how that translates for the citizens, bottom third or so in most categories

From US census bureau and NCstate website
Rank

Unemployment
41 NORTH CAROLINA 9.9%

Per Capita income
36 NORTH CAROLINA

Home ownership
32 North Carolina 69.4%

Graduation Rate
37 NC 71.4%

SAT rankings
Participation.
11 NC
Reading and Writing
41 NC
Math
35 NC

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by zimmy

funny thing, statistics. NC top tier in business climate, but when you look directly at how that translates for the citizens, bottom third or so in most categories

From US census bureau and NCstate website
Rank

Unemployment
41 NORTH CAROLINA 9.9%

What does this number have to do with unions? Are you suggesting that unionization would raise the employment rate in Norh Carolina? Is 9.9 percent some dramatically high figure compared to the national average? In my great union State of Michigan 9.9 percent would look good.

Per Capita income
36 NORTH CAROLINA

Per Capita income is not necessarily an indicator of union success. A great deal of average income is boosted by non-union, greedy capitalist types and financial sector positions such as in New England. What may be more telling in the "translation" for citizens than Per Capita income is the cost of living. Of the 10 States with the lowest cost of living, 8 are right to work states.

Home ownership
32 North Carolina 69.4%

Percentage of home ownership in North Carolina is not far off from the middle. It beats the percentage in highly touted States such as New York, New Jersey, Illinois, and California. What is the connection between unionization and home ownership?

Graduation Rate
37 NC 71.4%

Again, this figure is not so far off from the middle, and, again, what does unionization have to do with it? So, if everybody joined a union, the graduation rate would rise? Should we start demanding everbody get a degree of some sort so they can get a union job?

SAT rankings
Participation.
11 NC
Reading and Writing
41 NC
Math
35 NC

Again, what's this got to do with unions?

[scottw]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Again, what's this got to do with unions?

maybe Zimmy's statistics indicate that the government schools and unionized teachers are doing and have been doing a crappy job in preparing North Carolina's children to participate in it's growing economy?

this is where it began, I don't know how we ended up at SAT scores...

Chesapeak Bill "I can, however, say that if you look at the current economic situation in southern states (North Carolina is a good example) the average worker makes squat. Why? Becuase there is no union group to set an eaxample for what is the baseline. Good or bad, the unions have helped out non-union workers by establishing baseline salaries. Do you really think hourly wages woudl be where they are without at least one union getting a contract that establishes the standard for what is fair? If so, you are kidding yourself. Without that corporate greed would take hold "

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by scottw

businessfacilities.com 2010 state rankings

Economic Growth Potential
1. South Carolina
2. Tennessee
3. Virginia
4. North Carolina
5. Texas
6. Arizona

Best Business Climate
1. Texas
2. Virginia
3. Utah
4. South Carolina
5. Tennessee
6. North Carolina

Workforce Training Leaders
1. Louisiana
2. Georgia
3. New Mexico
4. Florida
5. North Carolina

probably as a result of all of those retirees moving there for tax reasons those southern states are a disaster

10/15/10 - North Carolina ranked 3rd by Forbes for Best States for Business

Gov. Bev Perdue on Oct. 14 announced Forbes magazine is ranking North Carolina as the 3rd Best State for Business in America. North Carolina improved from last year’s Forbes ranking of fifth. In addition, the Governor announced that recent statistics from the Federal Bureau of Labor and Statistics show North Carolina is the 3rd best state for declining unemployment and 4th in the nation for job creation.

In the Forbes rankings, North Carolina scored third in Business Costs and Regulatory Environment and ninth in Growth Prospect. Forbes scored the states on six measures including business cost, labor supply, regulatory environment, economic climate, growth prospect and quality of life.

let's see...North Carolina...or Michigan, RI...etc...?

Originally Posted by detbuch

Again, what's this got to do with unions?

Scott pointed out that North Carolina has a great climate for business. He also pointed out earlier that NC has one of the lowest union presences. Based on those points, it is reasonable to point out the other statistics. It wasn't specifically union related, but maybe it applies. Hope that clears it up

[scottw]

Originally Posted by zimmy

Scott pointed out that North Carolina has a great climate for business. He also pointed out earlier that NC has one of the lowest union presences no I didn't, I have no idea what the union presesnce is or is not in NC, . Based on those points, it is reasonable to point out the other statistics. Hope that clears it up

I pointed out that it is ranked well for business climate and as of 10/15/10 - North Carolina ranked 3rd by Forbes for Best States for Business

Gov. Bev Perdue on Oct. 14 announced Forbes magazine is ranking North Carolina as the 3rd Best State for Business in America. North Carolina improved from last year’s Forbes ranking of fifth. In addition, the Governor announced that recent statistics from the Federal Bureau of Labor and Statistics show North Carolina is the 3rd best state for declining unemployment and 4th in the nation for job creation.

the two in bold are not unrelated

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by scottw

maybe Zimmy's statistics indicate that the government schools and unionized teachers are doing and have been doing a crappy job in preparing North Carolina's children to participate in it's growing economy?


[/B]"

Huh... the other 40 states ahead of NC also have unionized government schools that are performing better. Maybe there are other factors, like uneducated parents with poor analytical skills??? Maybe the anti-intellectual part of some parents rubs off on the kids?

Oh yeah, SAT scores are included, because they give at least a small idea about education in NC, the state that you are raving about the business climate... which doesn't seem to equate to excellent economic indicators for the people in the state. Sure you could figure that out for yourself, though.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by zimmy

Huh... the other 40 states ahead of NC also have unionized government schools that are performing better. Maybe there are other factors, like uneducated parents with poor analytical skills??? Maybe the anti-intellectual part of some parents rubs off on the kids?

sounds racist.....and depends on how you define "performing better"

America is spending more money on education while producing worse outcomes.
Veronique de Rugy from the March 2011 issue

In November the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) released its Program for International Student Assessment scores, measuring educational achievement in 65 countries. The results are depressingly familiar: While students in many developed nations have been learning more and more over time, American 15-year-olds are stuck in the middle of the pack in many fundamental areas, including reading and math. Yet the United States is near the top in education spending.

Using the OECD data, Figure 1 compares K–12 education expenditures per pupil in each of the world’s major industrial powers. With the exception of Switzerland, the U.S. spends the most in the world on education, an average of $91,700 per student in the nine years between the ages of 6 and 15. But the results do not correlate.



"anti-intellectual"