Who won the debate last night?

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"I would think that someone like yourself with strong religious beliefs would find Gingrich, with his infidelity and 2 divorces, just as reprehensible as you find Clinton."

You have some irrefutably valid points, as usual.

However, someone with my religious beliefs understands that we're all imperfect. As far as anyone knows, Gingrich has been happily married for 15 years, is a devout Catholic, and he admits his sins and has asked for forgiveness. I don't see that as morally equivalent to Clinton using a 20 year-old girl's sexual organs as an ashtray, and then angrily denying it the next day, and suggesting that my problem is that I don't understand the definition of the word "is".

I find Gingrich's past actions there to be disgusting. I also believe in redemption for those who are sorry. By all accounts, Gingrich has been sorry for his flaws, and has been an above-the-board person, since he converted to Catholicism.

"I understand that Clinton is a Democrat and therefore you hate him. "

You understand me a whole lot less than you think. There are lots of Democrats I like, and lots of republicans I despise. I think very rationally about these things. I also think Clinton was a pretty good president, especially after he adopted conservative economics.

Appreciate and can respect the opinion. Maybe it's my cynicism, but I personally don't have much confidence that either of them are all that great of human beings - mostly due to my distaste of most national level politicians.

"I'm curious how you justify the double-standard. "

A double-standard is when you treat 2 things differently when they are, in fact, the same. Gingrich appears to me to be a sincere, devout Catholic who fully admits his sins. Clinton (while a good president in my opinion) is a weasel. I'd bet Clinton is still unfaithful to Hilary, and I'd bet that Newt has straightened himself out. That's the difference.

It's not a double standard when you treat 2 different things, as if they are different.

Whether it is or is not a double-standard is essentially an "in the eyes of the beholder" type of situation. Due to your opinion that Newt has converted and is repentant while Clinton has never been, eliminates the possibility of it appearing as a double-standard to you.

Here's a real double-standard...saying that Bush trampled civil liberties by passing the Patriot Act, but not holding it against Obama. Or calling Bush a war criminal for using predator drones and Guantanimo Bay, but calling Obama a good leader for doing the same, and even giving him the Nobel Peace Prize.. Those would be real double standards.

Aside from you posts about Unions, I haven't agreed with you more than with the above. The quiet, continued support for extending the Patriot Act, his push for actions that erode our rights domestically, the increased warrant-less tracking of Americans at home and many other attacks on our right to privacy.... these are some of my biggest issues with Obama. It was my biggest issue with Bush and now is my biggest issue with Obama.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Appreciate and can respect the opinion. Maybe it's my cynicism, but I personally don't have much confidence that either of them are all that great of human beings - mostly due to my distaste of most national level politicians.


Whether it is or is not a double-standard is essentially an "in the eyes of the beholder" type of situation. Due to your opinion that Newt has converted and is repentant while Clinton has never been, eliminates the possibility of it appearing as a double-standard to you.


Aside from you posts about Unions, I haven't agreed with you more than with the above. The quiet, continued support for extending the Patriot Act, his push for actions that erode our rights domestically, the increased warrant-less tracking of Americans at home and many other attacks on our right to privacy.... these are some of my biggest issues with Obama. It was my biggest issue with Bush and now is my biggest issue with Obama.

"I personally don't have much confidence that either of them are all that great of human beings - mostly due to my distaste of most national level politicians."

I agree, most are jerks.

"Due to your opinion that Newt has converted and is repentant while Clinton has never been, eliminates the possibility of it appearing as a double-standard to you."

I'd say theere's more of a distinction that just my view. Both men cheated. Gingrich says he's sorry, and says he asked God for forgiveness. When we asked Clinton about it, he essentially told us to mid our own business. But you are correct, much of it is in the eye of the beholder.

"Aside from you posts about Unions, I haven't agreed with you more than with the above"

If you agree with me on unions (and I thought you did), you agree with me on a lot. My belief that unions are an indescribable source of bad things, is a cornerstone of my beliefs.

"It was my biggest issue with Bush and now is my biggest issue with Obama"

Funny. I liked that BUsh used those tools, and I like that Obama is doing it. I just don't luike the double-standard.

Hope your holidays are off to a good start Johnny.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Hope your holidays are off to a good start Johnny.

Thank you. Same goes for you and your family. 2012 is going to be a very interesting year for me.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Thank you. Same goes for you and your family. 2012 is going to be a very interesting year for me.

Your welcome, and thanks. I believe you own your own business? I hope that 2012 is a great year, and that you become (if not already) one of the 1% that Obama and Spence blame for everything.

By "interesting", I hope you meen enriching, rewarding, and fulfilling. Sincerely.

Jamie

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Your welcome, and thanks. I believe you own your own business? I hope that 2012 is a great year, and that you become (if not already) one of the 1% that Obama and Spence blame for everything.

By "interesting", I hope you meen enriching, rewarding, and fulfilling. Sincerely.

Jamie

That's the interesting part. My business partner and I are going separate ways due to far too many differences of opinion. New ventures on the horizon for me... will be exciting and hopefully not a big flop. Thanks for the well wishes.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I'd say theere's more of a distinction that just my view. Both men cheated. Gingrich says he's sorry, and says he asked God for forgiveness. When we asked Clinton about it, he essentially told us to mid our own business. But you are correct, much of it is in the eye of the beholder..

So, if Clinton had publicly said he asked God for forgiveness, you'd be OK w/ it moving forward? You have no proof he still cheats, or didn't ask for forgiveness, it is totally 'in the eye of the beholder'

They both have/had serious character issues.

The guys who wrote 'the right strikes back' had accounts from Newt's staffers that current wife wouldn't let him campaign overnight w/ out her there... does she get lonely? or does she fear once a cheat, always a cheat?

[scottw]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

So, if Clinton had publicly said he asked God for forgiveness, you'd be OK w/ it moving forward? You have no proof he still cheats, or didn't ask for forgiveness, it is totally 'in the eye of the beholder'

They both have/had serious character issues.

The guys who wrote 'the right strikes back' had accounts from Newt's staffers that current wife wouldn't let him campaign overnight w/ out her there... does she get lonely? or does she fear once a cheat, always a cheat?

nice job stomping all over Jim and JD's love fest.....

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

So, if Clinton had publicly said he asked God for forgiveness, you'd be OK w/ it moving forward? You have no proof he still cheats, or didn't ask for forgiveness, it is totally 'in the eye of the beholder'

They both have/had serious character issues.

The guys who wrote 'the right strikes back' had accounts from Newt's staffers that current wife wouldn't let him campaign overnight w/ out her there... does she get lonely? or does she fear once a cheat, always a cheat?

"So, if Clinton had publicly said he asked God for forgiveness, you'd be OK w/ it moving forward?"

If Clinton responded the way Gingrish did, I would absolutely be OK with it. Otherwise, I'd be a hypocrit. And I'm not.

"You have no proof he still cheats, "

You are right. But I'd bet an awful lot of money that he still does, and it would be a sucker bet.

"or didn't ask for forgiveness"

I have proof that he didn't ask for forgiveness when first confronted. It was on TV. He angrily denied having the affair, then he said something insane about he only cheated if you don't know what the word "is" means.

"They both have/had serious character issues."

True. Know what else? Together, they proved that if you cut taxes, cut spending, balance the budget, and kick lazy people off welfare (the ones who ought to be working), you can really revitalize an economy. Maybe you haven;t noticed, but we could use that right now. So when the messiah Obama says that conservative economic principles "never work", which he said in Kansas last week, he is demonstrably wrong. Look at how the economy performed after Clinton/Gingrich did their thing. Not too shabby. What never works is socialism.