Mass Striper decline numbers from NOAA

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by CowHunter

I love finding this in the spring day to day, 1,000's of 30-40lb bass swimming past under the boat, but yet they are almost extinct?

You are clearly demonstrating the mentality that lead to the first collapse. Circumstantial evidence to support what you want to believe.

A few years of slot in New Jersey is enough for you to reach a conclusion? One side you say best fishing ever, the next you say it hasn't returned to the norm. The fish you are catching in Jersey come out of the Hudson and Chesapeake. They aren't resident on the coast. There may be small numbers wintering in the estuaries, but the idea they wiped out the resident local fish is the same kind of science as showing a sonogram of a school of fish as your evidence the population is fine. The trouble is, too many people with similar mentality who are thinking with their wallets have enormous clout with the reg makers.

[CowHunter]

Originally Posted by zimmy

You are clearly demonstrating the mentality that lead to the first collapse. Circumstantial evidence to support what you want to believe.

A few years of slot in New Jersey is enough for you to reach a conclusion? One side you say best fishing ever, the next you say it hasn't returned to the norm. The fish you are catching in Jersey come out of the Hudson and Chesapeake. They aren't resident on the coast. There may be small numbers wintering in the estuaries, but the idea they wiped out the resident local fish is the same kind of science as showing a sonogram of a school of fish as your evidence the population is fine. The trouble is, too many people with similar mentality who are thinking with their wallets have enormous clout with the reg makers.

No, the fish I am reffering to are all the Bay fish, That has not returned to the norm. The migratory runs have been better than ever. Way different. I can go any day of the week, month and catch em in my home waters, pretty aware as to whats going on here. Yes there are curveballs every year. But I did see what a slot limit did... You??? Small number wintering in the Thames? Hudson? Or Offshore in the Mudhole? Kent Island, Chesapeake? or 13 plus miles off the VA, NC coast??? Where did a awesome YOY come from? A Fluke, please explain? catching 30-100 plus fish, times many, every day and its over? You dont see the Carnage I take....

[l.i.fish.in.vt]

kenny,how many miles of bass were there off jersey this fall?,do you think it is the same mass of fish that were off chatham.i think if some people expierenced these massive schools of fish firsthand they might change the way they think.

[CowHunter]

Originally Posted by l.i.fish.in.vt

kenny,how many miles of bass were there off jersey this fall?,do you think it is the same mass of fish that were off chatham.i think if some people expierenced these massive schools of fish firsthand they might change the way they think.

yes they would...Guess those miles of fish are expected to be on the beach...

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by l.i.fish.in.vt

kenny,how many miles of bass were there off jersey this fall?,do you think it is the same mass of fish that were off chatham.i think if some people expierenced these massive schools of fish firsthand they might change the way they think.

Massive isolated schools of fish and the experience of a select few are not an even remotely valid indicator of the health of a fish who's range is in excess of 1000 miles of shore and 100's of thousands of square miles of ocean.

I've said it before... didn't there used to be a time when the fish were everywhere? I think Mike P said it, "it's not how the fishing is in the middle of their range, it's the worsening of the fishing towards the outside of its range." A contraction of range points to a decrease in the stocks.

[CowHunter]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Massive isolated schools of fish and the experience of a select few are not an even remotely valid indicator of the health of a fish who's range is in excess of 1000 miles of shore and 100's of thousands of square miles of ocean.

I've said it before... didn't there used to be a time when the fish were everywhere? I think Mike P said it, "it's not how the fishing is in the middle of their range, it's the worsening of the fishing towards the outside of its range." A contraction of range points to a decrease in the stocks.

The outer ranges are much more weather / temp dependent, simple as that, plus their seasons are much shorter... People fish temp breaks offshore, you think different applies for other fish? The best bites this year were early and late, it was when people ended the season it started. When many started the best went by.....Hell we were just getting started in December! Many states are disasters with their bait management and wonder why the fish arent there. The fish still are just about everywhere, the big schools, found EVERYDAY, are with the massive amounts of bait. Nowhere else do these fish get pounded as hard as in northern central jersey out east long island, yet the fish arent wiped out here, 100's, thousands caught every day for a much longer season span... Why is it that every Pogie boat from Mass down from NC, VA is coming up netting pogies off NJ? Yet they are not allowed within 1.2 miles of shoreline. You guys have those boats wipe out the bays, Harbors!

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by CowHunter

But I did see what a slot limit did... You??? You dont see the Carnage I take....

Only slot limit I have experience with is drum in N.C, which seems to work well, and stripers within the Chespaeake. The drum would be slaughterred with a 1@36 or 2@28. The chesapeake has 18" minimum and a slot in the potomac 18-28" for decades. I'm not sure how you are connecting the dots as far as the effect of the slot and what you mean by Bay fish, etc. Chesapeake, Delaware, Raritan? You can catch them all year long, but the slot wrecked that?
1 fish, whether 22-28 or 36 is better than what we have. I am not sure there is any evidence that you are correct that 1@22-28" would wipe out the population, but the 2@28 is working (clearly, in your experience). In any case, I am glad I don't rely on them for financial purposes. It is too bad that the regulations are driven by those who profit by killing the biggest fish.

[CowHunter]

Originally Posted by zimmy

Only slot limit I have experience with is drum in N.C, which seems to work well, and stripers within the Chespaeake. The drum would be slaughterred with a 1@36 or 2@28. The chesapeake has 18" minimum and a slot in the potomac 18-28" for decades. I'm not sure how you are connecting the dots as far as the effect of the slot and what you mean by Bay fish, etc. Chesapeake, Delaware, Raritan? You can catch them all year long, but the slot wrecked that?
1 fish, whether 22-28 or 36 is better than what we have. I am not sure there is any evidence that you are correct that 1@22-28" would wipe out the population, but the 2@28 is working (clearly, in your experience). In any case, I am glad I don't rely on them for financial purposes. It is too bad that the regulations are driven by those who profit by killing the biggest fish.

Yes Slot Crushed raritan an DE bay... Why they go back to 2 @ 28"??? The Headboat captains pushed for it to begin with cause they wanted a piece of the early and late season action, easy to clam, worm, and jig rats...

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by CowHunter

Yes Slot Crushed raritan an DE bay... Why they go back to 2 @ 28"??? The Headboat captains pushed for it to begin with cause they wanted a piece of the early and late season action, easy to clam, worm, and jig rats...

That's no good. 1@36-40" is fine with me.

[Pharmacyguy]

Years long declines in catches in multiple states, total catch rates declining every year since 2006. An absence of schoolies in many traditional spots. Stripers are considered littoral fish aka the "rockfish" and for the entire documented history we have of striped bass people caught them standing on the shore. Damn near every guy fishing from shore is saying they aren't catching fish the way they used to just a few years ago but we are supposed to believe that because the boat guys are slaughtering them that we don't have serious problem?!?

[CowHunter]

Originally Posted by Pharmacyguy

Years long declines in catches in multiple states, total catch rates declining every year since 2006. An absence of schoolies in many traditional spots. Stripers are considered littoral fish aka the "rockfish" and for the entire documented history we have of striped bass people caught them standing on the shore. Damn near every guy fishing from shore is saying they aren't catching fish the way they used to just a few years ago but we are supposed to believe that because the boat guys are slaughtering them that we don't have serious problem?!?

Maybe not the areas you normally fish, but The shore guys have still been slaughtering them in some areas this spring and this fall.Guess the fish are sticking with the vast amounts of bait???

[thefishingfreak]

Originally Posted by Pharmacyguy

Years long declines in catches in multiple states, total catch rates declining every year since 2006. An absence of schoolies in many traditional spots. Stripers are considered littoral fish aka the "rockfish" and for the entire documented history we have of striped bass people caught them standing on the shore. Damn near every guy fishing from shore is saying they aren't catching fish the way they used to just a few years ago but we are supposed to believe that because the boat guys are slaughtering them that we don't have serious problem?!?

Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[CowHunter]

Originally Posted by thefishingfreak

Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Yeah, Prime bass country!!! used to be any way, never will be agian, but they are loade offshore of that, stellwagon, etc with the miles of sand eels...

[l.i.fish.in.vt]

johnny,if you spent any amount of time on the water,you would know it isn't a few isolated schools of fish.personally i would base the health of the fishery on the expierence of guys like Kenny and others that i know who put as much time in as he does.

[afterhours]

Originally Posted by l.i.fish.in.vt

johnny,if you spent any amount of time on the water,you would know it isn't a few isolated schools of fish.personally i would base the health of the fishery on the expierence of guys like Kenny and others that i know who put as much time in as he does.

for every kenny there are 20 joe's with their experiences...

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by l.i.fish.in.vt

johnny,if you spent any amount of time on the water,you would know it isn't a few isolated schools of fish.personally i would base the health of the fishery on the expierence of guys like Kenny and others that i know who put as much time in as he does.

In my crowd, there are a bunch of guys who have been boat fishing the western sound reefs forever. I have only done it for maybe the last 9 years. Typical May from Hempstead to Norwalk, then later Milford, you would get your bunker, head out to the reefs and regularly catch bunches of nice fish. Chumming and chunking, swimming live, whatever. The last several springs, particularly so in the last two, there were dramatically fewer fish and many skunks. Miles of bunker, followed by miles of sand eels. Five years ago, a skunk was almost unheard under those conditions. The fish went out of Raritan and south or out east, and through the sound toward Rhode Island. To think that the poor fishing north and east is because the fish are hanging off Jersey or are offshore is probably wishful thinking. They used to be in all of those places. It isn't the seals in CT, RI, NH, NC, and most of MA.

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by l.i.fish.in.vt

johnny,if you spent any amount of time on the water,you would know it isn't a few isolated schools of fish.personally i would base the health of the fishery on the expierence of guys like Kenny and others that i know who put as much time in as he does.

There are a bunch of guys on this site who went through this when Kenny (Cow Hunter?) (and I for that matter...) were still wetting the bed. A boat and a gps, along with being in the business of having to know where the school is makes Kenny's experiences much less representative of the norm in the fishery. I trust those other guys. I have been expecting it for 8 years or so. The fact that some of these guys are sounding off about it now is very concerning.