Burning the Koran

[spence]

Originally Posted by scottw

see..it's not Islam... it's everyone else that makes them mad and want to burn things and kill people
hey Spence, you do know that in Europe the right is really the left, right?

Well, that's not at all what I said. Perhaps that's your problem...understanding that another viewpoint exists isn't an endorsement.

And no, the left in the EU isn't the reverse of our Right. You're just confusing parliamentary parties in the UK.

-spence

[Fly Rod]

Originally Posted by scottw

they are victims

Victims of what?

[spence]

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

Victims of what?

Lame sarcasm.

-spence

[justplugit]

I would suggest Rauf sit down with the Muslim moderates and watch
"The Day The Towers Fell."

As a religious people they should be able to see why the area around the 16 acres destroyed is sacred ground
and how their building would adversely affect the families,friends and citizens of our country.

It's a no brain-er for a people who do care about others.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

Victims of what?

victims of non-muslim oppression dating back to the Crusades and victims of hate whose flames have been fanned through the ages by the "right-wing" with hateful propoganda created for political purposes unjustly characterizing Islam as the one religeon causing great disturbance around the globe...

the Swiss banned the minarets because they didn't want those islamic missiles dotting their pristine countryside...have you see a picture of those things? I told you NASA should build the GZ Mosque..right up their alley...

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

Well, that's not at all what I said. Perhaps that's your problem...understanding that another viewpoint exists isn't an endorsement.

-spence

didn't say it was an endorsement...more like a very weak defense and shifting blame...it's not Islam..it is Europe's inability to embrace Islam and unwillingness to support the spread of Islam with never ending social welfare programmes...if only they were more tolerant in Europe

Caldwell: There is no welfare state on the scale of that in Europe, and I think welfare states are a bad fit for large-scale immigration. In an ethnically diverse society, people are less familiar with each other, and they are correspondingly less willing to pay taxes for social benefits. Two-thirds of the imams in France are on welfare. There is nothing wrong with being an imam. But I don't think the French are very happy about paying what is effectively a state subsidy for religion in that way.

Interview conducted by Mathieu von Rohr

pretty good interview from der spiegel
Christopher Caldwell on Muslim Integration: 'It's Much Better If Things Are Discussed Openly' - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

[Nebe]

i destroyed mine this morning..

[spence]

Originally Posted by scottw

didn't say it was an endorsement...more like a very weak defense and shifting blame...it's not Islam..it is Europe's inability to embrace Islam and unwillingness to support the spread of Islam with never ending social welfare programmes...

You were assuming culpability, I was simply assessing the situation. A lot of Islamic immigration to the EU is a result of colonialism which gives them legal rights to government services. Many European countries have well established welfare systems and many Europeans have a history of intolerance to outsiders.

I don't think any of this is really debatable, it all adds to the formula and little of it is driven by the Muslims themselves...

Or are you asserting that European actions over the past two centuries haven't contributed to the situation?

Caldwell: There is no welfare state on the scale of that in Europe, and I think welfare states are a bad fit for large-scale immigration. In an ethnically diverse society, people are less familiar with each other, and they are correspondingly less willing to pay taxes for social benefits. Two-thirds of the imams in France are on welfare. There is nothing wrong with being an imam. But I don't think the French are very happy about paying what is effectively a state subsidy for religion in that way.

I'd generally agree with this, but also note that it's the Francophiles and not the Imams really in charge of future French policy.

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

I would suggest Rauf sit down with the Muslim moderates and watch
"The Day The Towers Fell."

As a religious people they should be able to see why the area around the 16 acres destroyed is sacred ground
and how their building would adversely affect the families,friends and citizens of our country.

It's a no brain-er for a people who do care about others.

If it's that sacred, shouldn't the larger area be turned into a gigantic park? Do the strip clubs and bars that are there today make the proper statement of remembrance? Should we allow any new construction?

If it's Islam that offends the sanctity of the location, shouldn't we also prohibit Muslims, or at least traditional Islamic dress visible to others?

You do know the planned location is already used as a mosque today. Should we have this shut down immediately?

-spence

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

If it's that sacred, shouldn't the larger area be turned into a gigantic park? Do the strip clubs and bars that are there today make the proper statement of remembrance? Should we allow any new construction?

If it's Islam that offends the sanctity of the location, shouldn't we also prohibit Muslims, or at least traditional Islamic dress visible to others?

You do know the planned location is already used as a mosque today. Should we have this shut down immediately?

-spence

Spence, you just don't get it, your over the top.

This has nothing to do with what bars, strip clubs, Mosques or garbs that were there before the attack.

It has to do with the sesnsitivity for the families and friends of the victims
after an insane attack against innocent people.

Any religion should take that sesnitivity into consideration.

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

Spence, you just don't get it, your over the top.

This has nothing to do with what bars, strip clubs, Mosques or garbs that were there before the attack.

It has to do with the sesnsitivity for the families and friends of the victims
after an insane attack against innocent people.

Any religion should take that sesnitivity into consideration.

Unless the issue isn't Islam itself, how is the presence of Muslims near Ground Zero insensitive? It's not like the attack killed only Christians, Hindus, Atheists and Jews.

If the 9/11 families and friends (i.e. most all of America) have a problem with Islam, that is the white elephant in the room that should be discussed. Not turn the presence of a mosque, that already exists (I believe it opened after 9/11), into a political circus.

If the objective is sensitivity, then the most vocal critics certainly have failed miserably. The rallies today protesting both sides of the mosque issue are a perfect example.

-spence

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by spence

Unless the issue isn't Islam itself, how is the presence of Muslims near Ground Zero insensitive? It's not like the attack killed only Christians, Hindus, Atheists and Jews.

If the 9/11 families and friends (i.e. most all of America) have a problem with Islam, that is the white elephant in the room that should be discussed. Not turn the presence of a mosque, that already exists (I believe it opened after 9/11), into a political circus.

If the objective is sensitivity, then the most vocal critics certainly have failed miserably. The rallies today protesting both sides of the mosque issue are a perfect example.

-spence

The mosque currently is the guys apartment. Do you consider that a legitimate place of worship?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[UserRemoved1]

Hey he does have a THRONE to sit on right?

Originally Posted by Nebe

The mosque currently is the guys apartment. Do you consider that a legitimate place of worship?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Nebe]

Lol. And a sacred scroll
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[scottw]

yup...

The Washington Examiner reveals some creative tax filing by Imam Rauf and reveals who is funding him..


Feisal Abdul Rauf, the New York imam and State Department envoy who wants to build a controversial new mosque at Ground Zero, applied for - and received - tax-exempt status from the IRS in 1998 for another mosque about 10 blocks from the Ground Zero site, stating that he was already holding prayer services there for up to 500 daily worshippers.


But when the Investigative Project on Terrorism checked out the information Rauf provided to the government on his IRS 1023 form, they discovered that 201 W. 85th Street was a 17-story Manhattan apartment building with no public spaces large enough to accommodate 500 daily worshippers. And Apartment 10 E was a one-bedroom, 800-square-foot unit that would have trouble holding even 50.


In their 1998 tax filing, Rauf and his wife, Daisy Khan, former director of the American Sufi Muslim Association, said that they wanted to build "a large scale prayer center in New York City...The center will include a mosque (prayer place) where every Friday and daily large congregation prayers and meditation centers will be held." However, IPT says, "ASMA records don't indicate that the center was ever built."[snip]


A recent financial statement by ASMA reported donations from the United Nations Population Fund, the Dutch government, MDG3 Fund, the Hunt Alternatives Fund, Carnegie Corp., the Rockefeller Brothers Fund, and the Qatar government.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by scottw

yup...

The Washington Examiner reveals some creative tax filing by Imam Rauf and reveals who is funding him..


Feisal Abdul Rauf, the New York imam and State Department envoy who wants to build a controversial new mosque at Ground Zero, applied for - and received - tax-exempt status from the IRS in 1998 for another mosque about 10 blocks from the Ground Zero site, stating that he was already holding prayer services there for up to 500 daily worshippers.


But when the Investigative Project on Terrorism checked out the information Rauf provided to the government on his IRS 1023 form, they discovered that 201 W. 85th Street was a 17-story Manhattan apartment building with no public spaces large enough to accommodate 500 daily worshippers. And Apartment 10 E was a one-bedroom, 800-square-foot unit that would have trouble holding even 50.


In their 1998 tax filing, Rauf and his wife, Daisy Khan, former director of the American Sufi Muslim Association, said that they wanted to build "a large scale prayer center in New York City...The center will include a mosque (prayer place) where every Friday and daily large congregation prayers and meditation centers will be held." However, IPT says, "ASMA records don't indicate that the center was ever built."[snip]


A recent financial statement by ASMA reported donations from the United Nations Population Fund, the Dutch government, MDG3 Fund, the Hunt Alternatives Fund, Carnegie Corp., the Rockefeller Brothers Fund, and the Qatar government.

Is his wife's name really Daisy ??? I love that. Maybe she works at one of the local stripper clubs.

[spence]

Are you serious? The man and his wife sound like they're cleaner than most members of Congress.

The funding is definitely suspicious though. CarnegieCorp? Rockefeller Fund? The Dutch Government???

I did have to look up the MGD3 Fund. Here's what found on the homepage.

‘It’s unacceptable that people are discriminated and subordinated because of their gender.’ Bert Koenders, Dutch Minister for Development Cooperation



‘Gender Equality and the Empowerment of Women’, the third Millennium Development Goal is a priority of the Dutch government. More action is needed to truly create a society where men and women are equal and enjoy the same rights and opportunities. Women struggle for equal rights, economic justice and a safe environment. Often with limited financial means but with a strong commitment and interest. For themselves, their families and their communities. Worldwide there is a fight against poverty, but special attention needs to be given to violence and discrimination against women.



Concrete action is called for to achieve equality between women and men. As a result Dutch NGO’s, companies and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs have decided to put their back into the fund: MDG3 Fund: Investing in Equality. Each provides a unique contribution to the realization of Millennium Development Goal 3.

This must be some insidious plot to enact Sharia Law through...um...

What was your point again?

-spence

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

It's not about bowing in fear, it's about staying true to who we say we are.

There are different "we" with different opinions of who we are. "We" don't have as unified opinion of who we are as the opinion Muslims, aparently, have of who we are.

This entire stunt with the pastor was such a big deal only because it came on the heels of the Islamic Cultural Center controversy in New York. That was only such a big deal because people are exploiting fear of Islam for political gain.

Politicians for or against the mosque can be accused of exploiting both controversies for political gain. But that would be a gross generalization. And the pastor's stunt could well have been an Alinskyish tactic of provoking the enemy into its typical peaceful behavior of rioting or killing.

We can have free speech in the country and let the crazies be crazies without it being a problem. But when the Right Wing is acting like MSG, primarily to serve their own interests, then they infringe on all our rights.

Wow! Talk about gross generalizations!

Sure, we have the right to ask for responsibility from Muslims abroad, but who are we to ask if we can't even practice what we preach?

What is it, again, that we are supposedly preaching?

Pretty soon you're going to see the fringe Right blaming Islam for all our ills. I can see it forming as we speak.
-spence

Gee Spence, for someone who is as familiar and approbative of Alinsky tactics as you are, how do you fail to see how Obama's team have infiltrated the fringe right, posing as right wingers blaming Islam for all our ills instead of blaming Obama?

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

What was your point again?

-spence

the point was a follow up on Nebe's point that America's favorite Imam with no formal religeous training has been enjoying tax exempt status since 1998 claiming to run a mosque out of his 800 squarefoot 1 bedroom apartment...I'm shocked that the UN is sending money his way...I think I'll open a mosque in my basement...

the more you look, the more he looks like, Sharpton, Jackson and the nut in Florida

[Nebe]

Good lord I agree with Scott Must be the Newport water I have been drinking all summer
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Fly Rod]

Now that the Koran was not burnt, that there will be no more killing of American troops.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Good lord I agree with Scott Must be the Newport water I have been drinking all summer
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

you can be the first member of my mosque...

I'm penning a letter to the UN right now requesting funding through the MDG3 Fund for our mosque based on the fact that we will be promoting gender equality because in our mosque everyone will be worshipping in the basement...not just the women, children and livestock...but EVERYONE...I can't guarantee I'll be able to add a missile to my roof however, my neighbors will NOT be down with that...and they aren't even Swiss...


I just got something in that you are really going to like, "EBEN"

I've had a lot of historical and non-historical items with various names over the last 20+ years but this is the first time I've had or even seen a piece of early pottery with the name EBEN

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by justplugit

I would suggest Rauf sit down with the Muslim moderates and watch
"The Day The Towers Fell."

As a religious people they should be able to see why the area around the 16 acres destroyed is sacred ground
and how their building would adversely affect the families,friends and citizens of our country.

It's a no brain-er for a people who do care about others.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spence, my original post has nothing to do with the questions you posted about it.

It's self explanatory, and has to do with Islam being at heart a peaceful religion, with teachings of religious tolerance and respect for others.

Therefore imo, they should be understanding of the feelings of the ones whose lives were forever affected by the evil act by a radical group of their religion.

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spence, my original post has nothing to do with the questions you posted about it.

It's self explanatory, and has to do with Islam being at heart a peaceful religion, with teachings of religious tolerance and respect for others.

Therefore imo, they should be understanding of the feelings of the ones whose lives were forever affected by the evil act by a radical group of their religion.

This, in my opinion, is implicating all of Islam in the attack. Just like all the Japanese on the west coast of the US were implicated in Pearl Harbor.

New York is a very diverse city, and Muslims already live, work and pray in the shadow of the twin towers. Muslims (no, not the hijackers smartass) were killed in the attacks.

To say that a cultural center intended to promote interfaith communication (and equal rights for women, perhaps one of the central issues within Islam today) is not sensitive because of a shared faith with Bin Laden doesn't make any sense to me.

Just because they both call it Islam they clearly don't really share the same faith.

Given the large amount of mistrust of Islam in this country I can see how some might feel offended regardless. That being said, a solution based on fear doesn't seem logical if the objective really is peace.

As I've mentioned earlier, this issue seems to have always been about the (partially manufactured) controversy, and not really about the actual center itself and Imam and his wife.

-spence

[spence]

Welcome to the thread.

Originally Posted by detbuch

There are different "we" with different opinions of who we are. "We" don't have as unified opinion of who we are as the opinion Muslims, aparently, have of who we are.

This statement implies there's a unified Islamic position as to what America is. This clearly is not the case. Hell, there isn't even a unified Islamic position as to what Islam is.

Politicians for or against the mosque can be accused of exploiting both controversies for political gain. But that would be a gross generalization. And the pastor's stunt could well have been an Alinskyish tactic of provoking the enemy into its typical peaceful behavior of rioting or killing.

I'm not aware of much mosque support intended for political gain, given some polls it could bring political pain.

But your comment makes me think...Is a poor, uneducated teenager in Afghanistan who perhaps doesn't even have a choice to participate in a protest against Americans burning the Koran...the ENEMY?

I guess he is if you want to make it be.

Note to all: A very good book -> http://www.amazon.com/Way-World-Stor.../dp/0061430625

Wow! Talk about gross generalizations!

I think the politicization of this issue by the Right has been pretty clear.

What is it, again, that we are supposedly preaching?

We preach the rule of law, respect of life etc... which from another perspective we don't seem to follow.

Gee Spence, for someone who is as familiar and approbative of Alinsky tactics as you are, how do you fail to see how Obama's team have infiltrated the fringe right, posing as right wingers blaming Islam for all our ills instead of blaming Obama?

I don't think Dems in general have the stones to pull it off.

-spence

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

Welcome to the thread.

Thanks. Probably should have stayed out of the thread, as I really didn't care if the Korans were burned or not. It would have been exciting, and the "news" loves excitement. I agree with those who think the Muslim response, if as threatened or predicted, would have been more idiotic, lawless, and to be pleaded against than the tiny group of book burners. And the Muslim response should not have been merely predicted by Muslim leaders, but they should have been the ones to demand that such responses not occur.

This statement implies there's a unified Islamic position as to what America is. This clearly is not the case. Hell, there isn't even a unified Islamic position as to what Islam is.

No, it implies that the Islamic position re America is not necessarily unified, but more unified than our opinions of who we are. That's, admittedly, just a guess based on the bulk of the "reports" that we get, and the supposition that Islamic societies are not as diverse as ours is. I should have excluded American Muslims from my statement since I view them as part of the disunified perceptions we have of ourselves--which is the real point of my response to your saying "it's about staying true to who we are."--and which you didn't answer.

My real implication is we are divided in this country, maybe more so than ever, and staying true to who we say we are will result in a different true for a different we--even to the point of being diametrically opposed. Vive la diversity.

And the we that oppose the GZ Mosque or wish to burn Korans may disagree fundamentally with the we who oppose them. But they don't disagree on a constitutional basis.

I'm not aware of much mosque support intended for political gain, given some polls it could bring political pain.

There might be some political game from American Muslims, various immigrants, and those who think it's mean spirited and un-American to oppose the mosque. And there is, as you say, the big possibility of backlash pain. But there would be more political gain to oppose the Koran burners as typical right wing nuts.

But your comment makes me think...Is a poor, uneducated teenager in Afghanistan who perhaps doesn't even have a choice to participate in a protest against Americans burning the Koran...the ENEMY?

I don't think the book burners were thinking of the poor Afghan kid who wouldn't participate in a protest, but they might have been thinking about the thousands, maybe tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of whackos who would protest.

I guess he is if you want to make it be.

As I said, I didn't care one way or the other.


I think the politicization of this issue by the Right has been pretty clear.

I don't think it's been all that clear. What you may consider politicization may be an honest opinion of a different minded we.

We preach the rule of law, respect of life etc... which from another perspective we don't seem to follow.

What laws have been broken? Which lives have been taken?

I don't think Dems in general have the stones to pull it off.
-spence

So WE have different perspectives on Dem stones. Over the past several years, it has appeared to this we that the Dems have exercised more balls, in every way, than the Republicans, who have so often acted like eunuchs. I think the latter's fear of "main stream" press has contributed to their castration.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Gee Spence, for someone who is as familiar and approbative of Alinsky tactics as you are, how do you fail to see how Obama's team have infiltrated the fringe right, posing as right wingers blaming Islam for all our ills instead of blaming Obama?

Wow.
your stuff must be strong! it is making you a bit paranoid though....

[scottw]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Wow.
your stuff must be strong! it is making you a bit paranoid though....

yeah, that's crazy, things like that have never happened....

"...in the spring of 1972, at Tulane University...students asked Alinsky to help plan a protest of a scheduled speech by George H. W. Bush, then U.S. representative to the United Nations - a speech likely to include a defense of the Nixon administration's Vietnam War policies. The students told Alinsky they were thinking about picketing or disrupting Bush's address. That's the wrong approach, he rejoined, not very creative - and besides causing a disruption might get them thrown out of school. He told them, instead, to go to hear the speech dressed as members of the Ku Klux Klan, and whenever Bush said something in defense of the Vietnam War, they should cheer and wave placards reading, ‘The KKK supports Bush.' And that is what they did, with very successful, attention-getting results."


Planting major falsehoods has been a favorite Alinsky strategy from the start. His acolyte, Barack Obama, learned his Industrial Areas Foundation lessons on deceiving for power while on a side trip during his Harvard years, then taught the Alinsky power tactics at the University of Chicago.

[justplugit]

Spence, I have never condemned or ever will condemn the mainline Muslim Faith for 9/11.That was the act of a radical group.
I have always admired the many Muslims I have known for their strong allegiance to their families, and would think they would have feelings for all families as well..

For the last time, as my original post said, I am suggesting that the mainline Muslim faith, as a religion,
should understand how putting their building so close to the 9/11 site would adversely affect the feelings of the families and friends of the victims and simply move their building to a different location.

BTW- no need for name calling.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Wow.
your stuff must be strong! it is making you a bit paranoid though....

I guess my stuff is stronger than I thought. I assumed it was obvious that, with a scenario which hasn't happened, I was demonstrating absurdity with absurdity. Certainly, infiltrating to deceive is a tactic, as Scott points out, that has been used. Sarcasm, irony, do need some illusion of credibility. I didn't think anyone would take it seriously. It was, after all, a response to Spence's remark--"Pretty soon you're going to see the fringe Right blaming Islam for all our ills. I can see it forming as we speak." That you didn't see paranoia in that statement is curious.