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Old 11-09-2006, 09:38 AM   #1
Flaptail
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Question Mid term elections....

Now that they are over and the Democratic Party has both the House and Senate do you think they can get the job done? So many issues but the main one as we all know is Iraq.

How do we get out without the country falling into civil chaos and bloodshed of an unimaginable scale? We have to finish what we unfortunately started, how the hell do we do that? Now that Rumsfeld, although very belatedly, has been fired and the officer corps of our armed forces are jumping for joy down the hallways of the Pentagon, do you think the new DS elect will let the military run the ground offensive there or not and will he listen to there advice? McNamara, is who I hold solely responsible for the war in VietNam getting so F*cked up and taking my brother's life, ran the show in the same way Rumsfeld did, it only took 30 years for him to realize how wrong he was. Even Pres. Johnson wanted to get out and knew it was a no win situation but he let McNamara go on as Bush did with Donny. How will this all play out? Any thoughts?

Why even try.........
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Old 11-09-2006, 10:00 AM   #2
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As far as I'm concerned the goals of the war were achieved quite some time ago. The task left at hand is to create an Internal Iraqi Security force capable of securing their own country. Hopefully with Rumsfelds departure that process can be expedited. The only thing for sure is an immediate withdrawal with no concern for the potential consequences would be a huge mistake.
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Old 11-09-2006, 10:18 AM   #3
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As far as I'm concerned the goals of the war were achieved quite some time ago. The task left at hand is to create an Internal Iraqi Security force capable of securing their own country. Hopefully with Rumsfelds departure that process can be expedited. The only thing for sure is an immediate withdrawal with no concern for the potential consequences would be a huge mistake.

couldnt have said it better myself.
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Old 11-09-2006, 10:48 AM   #4
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As far as I'm concerned the goals of the war were achieved quite some time ago.
The goal of the war as stated by it's architects was to bring safety to America by making the Middle East more stable through democratic reform.

Despite the heroic efforts of our fighting men and women we're still a long way from achieving this goal.

-spence
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Old 11-09-2006, 11:11 AM   #5
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As far as I'm concerned the goals of the war were achieved quite some time ago. The task left at hand is to create an Internal Iraqi Security force capable of securing their own country. Hopefully with Rumsfelds departure that process can be expedited. The only thing for sure is an immediate withdrawal with no concern for the potential consequences would be a huge mistake.
Very well said.

Bottom line is the people have spoken. I think in the long run this purge will be a good thing. I like it because many of the democrats that were elected are known as being fiscally and socially conservative, which is exactly what I am.

Unfortunately, I have a strong suspicion that with Pelosi and Rangel in positions of power and with the democratic party in control of congress there will be a lot more impetus to conduct investigations, issue subpoenas and hold hearings to vilify the current administration. I have a feeling that with the blind hate many democrats have for the Bush crowd, that the focus will shift from the "mess" that is Iraq to the fufillment of personal vendettas. We shall see.

The charm of fishing is that it is the pursuit of what is elusive but attainable, a perpetual series of occasions for hope. ~John Buchan
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Old 11-09-2006, 11:15 AM   #6
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Very well said.

Bottom line is the people have spoken. I think in the long run this purge will be a good thing. I like it because many of the democrats that were elected are known as being fiscally and socially conservative, which is exactly what I am.

Unfortunately, I have a strong suspicion that with Pelosi and Rangel in positions of power and with the democratic party in control of congress there will be a lot more impetus to conduct investigations, issue subpoenas and hold hearings to vilify the current administration. I have a feeling that with the blind hate many democrats have for the Bush crowd, that the focus will shift from the "mess" that is Iraq to the fufillment of personal vendettas. We shall see.
Agreed. If only that blind hatred could be channeled towards the true and sworn enemies of America we would be a stronger and safer nation.
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Old 11-09-2006, 11:23 AM   #7
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Unfortunately, I have a strong suspicion that with Pelosi and Rangel in positions of power and with the democratic party in control of congress there will be a lot more impetus to conduct investigations, issue subpoenas and hold hearings to vilify the current administration. I have a feeling that with the blind hate many democrats have for the Bush crowd, that the focus will shift from the "mess" that is Iraq to the fufillment of personal vendettas. We shall see.
Ok, then how about Congress just does it's job and ensures the Executive Branch operates in an ethical and productive manner?

What you see as a "vendetta" I see as personal accountability. I used to think that Republicans stood for that...perhaps it's why so many fled the GOP this time around.

-spence
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Old 11-09-2006, 11:26 AM   #8
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I almost threw up reading the projo this morning. There was a fluff piece on Pelosi how she is a "moderate" democrat! Who are these people trying to fool? How can a San Fran Liberal be a freakin' moderate.

And i just loved the piece on how america voted "liberal" They made the argument that because Arizona voted for gay marriage the entire country somehow is coming around to that view. I think someone forgot to tell them that every other state that had that question on the ballet rejected it! And in previous elections the same thing. But no, america supports this crap now becuase of ONE state?? WTF?


Liberalism is gonna be jammed down our throat the next two years, so get ready.

Its starting already.....

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Old 11-09-2006, 11:37 AM   #9
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I almost threw up reading the projo this morning. There was a fluff piece on Pelosi how she is a "moderate" democrat! Who are these people trying to fool? How can a San Fran Liberal be a freakin' moderate.

And i just loved the piece on how america voted "liberal" They made the argument that because Arizona voted for gay marriage the entire country somehow is coming around to that view. I think someone forgot to tell them that every other state that had that question on the ballet rejected it! And in previous elections the same thing. But no, america supports this crap now becuase of ONE state?? WTF?


Liberalism is gonna be jammed down our throat the next two years, so get ready.

Its starting already.....
There is no doubt that America as a whole rejects the ideology of the Far Left. Even the Far Left Liberals in this election had to disguise their true positions. Trying to force feed those values and that ideology to Americans is a recipe for failure. We will see. Has anyone looked at Pelosi's voting record on Illegal Immigration? I think the Lieberman/Lamont race was a pretty good indicator where moderate (majority) of America stands.
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Old 11-09-2006, 11:40 AM   #10
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Skippy, didn't you hear?

The first Bill of the Pelosi Congress has already been proposed

Quote:
H.CON.RES.483 for the 110th Congress

MAKING HOMOSEXUALITY MANDATORY

Sec 1 - Realizing that the people of the United States of America enjoy better shopping, high-end restaurants and intellectually provocative artwork, it shall be determined that all US men shall be required to report to "grooming schools" positioned at all polling stations for immediate indoctrination.
-spence
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Old 11-09-2006, 11:48 AM   #11
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Ok, then how about Congress just does it's job and ensures the Executive Branch operates in an ethical and productive manner?

What you see as a "vendetta" I see as personal accountability. I used to think that Republicans stood for that...perhaps it's why so many fled the GOP this time around.

-spence
As long as the focus of our newly elected congress remains balanced and the safety and security of this great country is not compromised I will be satiated. I would just hate to see people tripping over each other in a mad rush to illustrate "personal accountability" while giving terrorists and individuals who want to harm this country a chance to take a deep breath.

I am not the only person who is extremely interested in seeing what plans this new congress has to cure the ills it has highlighted. There was a lot of rhetoric about getting out of Iraq, and exit strategies during these campaigns without an actual plan ever being set out. I wait with great anticipation.

The charm of fishing is that it is the pursuit of what is elusive but attainable, a perpetual series of occasions for hope. ~John Buchan
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Old 11-09-2006, 12:54 PM   #12
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It's always frightening to see the enemys of the United states, such as Iran, celebrating the new Democratic congress.

Now this disturbs me....

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Old 11-09-2006, 01:19 PM   #13
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Gentleman, let's get back on topic here. How would you propose, if it were you in thedrivers seat, we settle the mess in Iraq. What in your opinion is the clearest track to the resolution of this conflict?

Why even try.........
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Old 11-09-2006, 01:27 PM   #14
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Gentleman, let's get back on topic here. How would you propose, if it were you in thedrivers seat, we settle the mess in Iraq. What in your opinion is the clearest track to the resolution of this conflict?
After reading the most excellent book "The End of Iraq" by Peter Galbraith I'm leaning towards the Joe Biden plan for a more loose federation based along ethnic lines that uses a central government to manage oil revenues.

The only solution to these problems will be serious bi-partisan pragmatic thinking...and dumping Rummy was a positive first step.

-spence
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Old 11-09-2006, 01:28 PM   #15
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Gentleman, let's get back on topic here. How would you propose, if it were you in thedrivers seat, we settle the mess in Iraq. What in your opinion is the clearest track to the resolution of this conflict?
Intense focus on training and strengthening of Iraqs internal security forces. They and they alone can quell the internal violence inside their country.
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Old 11-09-2006, 01:30 PM   #16
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Intense focus on training and strengthening of Iraqs internal security forces. They and they alone can quell the internal violence inside their country.
The problem isn't just training...there's a small issue with "motivation"

-spence
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Old 11-09-2006, 01:30 PM   #17
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After reading the most excellent book "The End of Iraq" by Peter Galbraith I'm leaning towards the Joe Biden plan for a more loose federation based along ethnic lines that uses a central government to manage oil revenues.

The only solution to these problems will be serious bi-partisan pragmatic thinking...and dumping Rummy was a positive first step.

-spence
Thats an option and decision the Iraqi Government is entitled to.
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Old 11-09-2006, 01:32 PM   #18
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The problem isn't just training...there's a small issue with "motivation"

-spence
Motivation is definetely a component of the Training process. Any Marine will tell you.
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Old 11-09-2006, 01:34 PM   #19
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Thats an option and decision the Iraqi Government is entitled to.
Not without our permission. Granted things are better than under Supreme Iraqi Commander Paul Bremmer, but they ain't doing anything radical without our ok. It may be an unwritten rule but it's still working that way.

-spence
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Old 11-09-2006, 01:35 PM   #20
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Motivation is definetely a component of the Training process. Any Marine will tell you.
And without motivation the training is moot.

-spence
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Old 11-09-2006, 01:42 PM   #21
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Unfrortunately, there is no easy way out. We can't hand the Iraqi people a hot steaming plate of camel dung, that we dished up, and say "bon appetit" and "au revoir".

That's what Powell meant when he told the rest of the Administration, "you break it, you own it" before the war.

Maybe now everyone understands why Bush 41 never wanted to take Bahgdad or overthrow Saddam back in 1991 W should have listened more closely to Daddy's advice and not Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld.

Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
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Old 11-09-2006, 01:43 PM   #22
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Doenoe

Ok..... since a very large number of combatants, Iraqi and foreign to Iraq, do not want us there at all I don`t see how its possible.

Saddam was The Don of a criminal empire which controlled a largely volatile nation by extreme brute force and control.... FEAR.

We are the enemy to many who live there. From Shock and Awe to all the ongoing policing and attempted inforcements and brutalities of war we are not the saviour country bringing peace and Democracy. We are the enemy.

We leave and the competing factions will only further devastate Iraq and each other in a quest for power and control.

Why are we there? I truly believe its about oil and establishing a base of operations for our military in an oil rich region. Said base would give us a foothold for future wars which seem impending.

I do not have an idea that I think is viable for a solution to staightening out this catastrophic mess.

It all appears to be a blackhole of sorts that destroys all who enter its field of influence.

On that cheery note..... I hope the fishing is better next year

Last edited by Skitterpop; 11-09-2006 at 02:02 PM..

Good health and family
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Old 11-09-2006, 01:45 PM   #23
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And without motivation the training is moot.

-spence
Many a unmotivated youth has entered basic Training. Those that complete it are motivated.
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Old 11-09-2006, 01:50 PM   #24
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Many a unmotivated youth has entered basic Training. Those that complete it are motivated.
Perhaps we should have sent them to Parris Island then, but I remember something about it being done on site.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

Look at the Kurds, no problem with motivation...because they have ownership.

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Old 11-09-2006, 02:14 PM   #25
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Perhaps we should have sent them to Parris Island then, but I remember something about it being done on site.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

Look at the Kurds, no problem with motivation...because they have ownership.

-spence
We are talking about Military Training. Not Apples not Oranges. Military Training whether in Parris Island or Bagdhad instills motivation. Unmotivated individuals fail. Are you trying to tell us we are wasting our time Training Security Forces in Iraq? Or are you just being contrary to common sense?
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Old 11-09-2006, 02:21 PM   #26
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Are you trying to tell us we are wasting our time Training Security Forces in Iraq? Or are you just being contrary to common sense?
Common sense would indicate training effectiveness will be seriously hampered without motivation. We can't solve all the motivation issues, you can only lead the horse to water, but our policy decisions have really crippled us here.

Bush has been against setting many meaningful goals that would help to pressure Iraqi's into taking action into their own hands. I'm not advocating an immediate pull-out, but we might have to let them crash the bike in order to learn how to ride.

-spence
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Old 11-09-2006, 03:20 PM   #27
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Get....................... A....................... Room

Good health and family
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Old 11-09-2006, 08:54 PM   #28
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How the hell did we get into a civil war in Iraq?

low & slow 37
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Old 11-09-2006, 09:35 PM   #29
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Training security forces in Irag is a joke!!!
Who makes up the security force?
You have Sunni's and Shiites, both whom hate each other!!!
Like I said before, Iraq should no longer be a country!!!
It should be divided into 3 new countries of autonomy!!!
Kurds in the North (Whom can stand on their own now!!!)
Sunni's in the middle (With security support from Syria!!!)
Shiite's in the South (With support from Iran!!!)
Oil sharing revenues will be worked out by everyone involved!!!
This way, The USA can withdraw its troops in a show of a settlement and not as a show of defeat!!!
Besides, putting Syria and Iran on the world stage will force them to follow thru with whatever plans they have to help!!!
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Old 11-10-2006, 08:25 AM   #30
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How the hell did we get into a civil war in Iraq?
Easy answer--we started it.

You only had to look at the Balkans to see what was going to happen after Saddam was out of the picture. Very similar picture--bunch of disparate ethnicities/religions artificially held together under the reign of a brutal dictator (Tito in Yugoslavia, Hussein in Iraq). When the cement holding it together is removed, all hell breaks loose.

It's our great misfortune as a country to be too idealistic for our own good, still, after we should know better. We see people being brutalized in the world and we want to do something about it. That dirtbag Milosevic is ethnically cleansing Serbia by slaughtering Croats and Muslims, heck, let's stick our nose in that mess--and in the worst possible way, under the auspices of the UN

Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
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