Article on Stripers Forever plan to make striped bass a game fish

[Steve K]

Drop in striper stocks puts recreational, commercial fishermen at odds - The Boston Globe

Nothing that we don't already know.

[Raven]

nothing mentioned about the seals decimating the population.

[PRBuzz]

Or Great Whites!

[Swimmer]

Or poachers

[PRBuzz]

Originally Posted by Swimmer

Or poachers

It was mentioned about how much of the recreational catch goes undocumented. Does that fall under your definition of poaching? Or is poaching taking undersized fish and keeping too many? Or is it just a failure of the system to be able to track the rec guys?

[Swimmer]

[QUOTE=PRBuzz;745289]It was mentioned about how much of the recreational catch goes undocumented. Does that fall under your definition of poaching? Or is poaching taking undersized fish and keeping too many? Or is it just a failure of the system to be able to track the rec gu


Poaching is poaching. Undersized, over 28"s, taking more than the two allowable fish, any fish taken outside of the three mile limit. It happens all the time.

[JohnnyD]

But many recreational striper fishermen disagree. There is a legitimate question on whether the commercial catch should be banned, said Pat Paquette of the Massachusetts Striped Bass Association, and if it is, it should be done through the Atlantic States Commission’s authority, not the state Legislature’s. He said the issue is being driven by a small group of catch-and-release fishermen who want all the fish for themselves.

“This is an allocation grab,’’ he said.

Why?

The exact opposite could be stated.
"The bill is opposed by a small group of commercial fishermen who want all the fish available for them to sell. The Atlantic States Commission has already failed at effectively managing the fish and the state regulation should be driven by the state Legislature."

There seems to be about as much evidence to support either case. One group is driven by the individual fishermen and the other hails the support they receive by charter and commercial groups.

[DENNIS STANK]

they dont say anything about the fish that they catch in virgnia that are on there way to spone in the chesapeake.the slaughter of all those big fish is never talked about as a problem is it .if that doesnt stop our young fish will vanish forever then were all screwed.

[trapperpierre]

Newspaper Headlines should say(the real cause of 80% of stripers removed from the population):

RECREATIONAL ANGLERS and CHARTER BOAT PATRONS DECIMATE STRIPED BASS POPULATIONS ON THE EAST COAST

Recreational/Charter fishing directed at striped bass kills(dead,not alive, removed from SB biomass) the vast majority of yearly fish removed. Yes, 4/5 (80%)of all annual striped bass removal falls in the hands of the rec/charter groups. The hard cap commercial take is a mere 1/5 (20%).

The failure of the rec/charter groups to take full responsibility for their negative effect on striped bass populations, is part of a general conspiracy to eliminate commercial fishing for striped bass(and many other fisheries).

Striped bass, a wonderful multiple use fish resource, is stable, and provides much employment to the recreational and commercial venues.

Commercial striped bass fishers indicate they do take a small percentage of the annual catch for food purposes. The recreational/charter groups should acknowledge in the media that they are harvesting most of the stripers.

A hard cap of poundage is in place for the commercial sector. The massive recreational/charter assault on the striped bass increases annualy.

Sensible multiple use is in place. The real threat to all striped bass user groups are .........Animal rights groups(stated mission to stop ALL fishing).....foundation sponsored resource grabs(so called save the fish organizations)...MPAs..herbicide/insecticide run off from suburban lawns and agriculture(huge lobby representing the chemical industry)....excessive harvesting of bait fish throughout the Eastern Seaboard(made possible by Washington lobby)......

.........

[JohnR]

Chicken, meet Egg. Egg, chicken.

[trapperpierre]

......over easy please....

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by trapperpierre

Newspaper Headlines should say(the real cause of 80% of stripers removed from the population):

RECREATIONAL ANGLERS and CHARTER BOAT PATRONS DECIMATE STRIPED BASS POPULATIONS ON THE EAST COAST

Recreational/Charter fishing directed at striped bass kills(dead,not alive, removed from SB biomass) the vast majority of yearly fish removed. Yes, 4/5 (80%)of all annual striped bass removal falls in the hands of the rec/charter groups. The hard cap commercial take is a mere 1/5 (20%).

.........

I'll call you on that. The current ASMFC report from Jan 2010 addresses that issue. Here is what is actually going on.....this is directly from the report.......


"......... Since MRFSS recreational landings of striped bass are likely
overestimated by 45% to 70% after 1999, the current (2008) coast-wide commercial
landings composition would have increased from 31% under the original MRFSS landing
to 52% under the scenario 1 bias correction, and further to 59% following bias correction
under scenario 2. "


Sooooooooo......... 52-59 % of COASTWIDE landings are commercial. How does that fit in your argument now?

[trapperpierre]

........Rec/charter released fish that die and landings tally up to 4/5 of of all dead bass ...rec/charter landings plus release mortality=greatest death of stripers..next case

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by trapperpierre

........Rec/charter released fish that die and landings tally up to 4/5 of of all dead bass ...rec/charter landings plus release mortality=greatest death of stripers..next case

Commercial bass anglers make up less than 10% (5%,2%?) of the striped bass fishing public.

Commercial bass quotas could be shifted to include bycatch from other fisheries.

Do we need to go on? We can all make arguments on why to exclude the other usergroup from allocation. Do we really want to do that? Or do we err on the side of caution regarding the fish? Or worse, while we'll arguing the minutia, some other organization comes in and stops almost all of it?

[trapperpierre]

......there will be a Pew Pew--or similar group with a huge Washington lobby-buddy buddy with politicians.....to resource grab all of the fish.....all of us will be up #$%^&*creek.....and America is built on multiple use of our natural resources....................and... a food natural resources is a honorable use.......and noted oceanographer Jacques Cousteau stated a fish resource should be utilized for food......he did not think to highly about the utilization of fish for recreational/sport purposes...........and multiple use management practices are effective , with all users groups sharing......gamefish grab status is a selfish motive......

[MAKAI]

How is Charter fishing not considered commercial fishing ?
Are the clients that pay you for fish any different than bringing the fish to someone else to buy ? Isn't the end result the same ?
Whether you load up the buyers truck at the dock or people leave your boat with them.
You get paid each day to cull out some bass.
It's not a knock, I'm just curious why there is a separation of the two.
I'm sure I'll get a good reason as to why. From a simple point of view it's just semantics at the end of the day fish is what is sold.

Why do I have a feeling this is gonna be like throwing rocks at a wasp nest.

[fishbones]

Originally Posted by MAKAI

How is Charter fishing not considered commercial fishing ?
Are the clients that pay you for fish any different than bringing the fish to someone else to buy ? Isn't the end result the same ?
Whether you load up the buyers truck at the dock or people leave your boat with them.
You get paid each day to cull out some bass.
It's not a knock, I'm just curious why there is a separation of the two.
I'm sure I'll get a good reason as to why. From a simple point of view it's just semantics at the end of the day fish is what is sold.

Why do I have a feeling this is gonna be like throwing rocks at a wasp nest.

Charter captains are only held to the amount of fish legaly permitted to each angler on board the boat. Say there are 6 anglers on a trip, that means 12 keepers can be taken. If the captain does 2 trips per day, 6 days per week, that means that there could potentially be 144 keepers being killed per week. And the season lasts as long as the fish are around.

Commercial guys have a shorter season with a quota and are limited by which days they can fish.

While a charter captain is still fishing for money, it's different than the commercial guys. They actually have a greater impact on the fishery because of the amounts they take. On the flip side, you could argue that charter boats are taking fish that may have been caught and kept by the fishermen on the boat anyways.

[Rob Rockcrawler]

Cant a charter boat also keep the limit for the captain and any crew? That last time i did a 6 pack we kept 16 fish. Way tooo many. The Capt wasnt too keen on catch and release but that was close to 10 years ago.

[Sweetwater]

Originally Posted by Rob Rockcrawler

Cant a charter boat also keep the limit for the captain and any crew? That last time i did a 6 pack we kept 16 fish. Way tooo many. The Capt wasnt too keen on catch and release but that was close to 10 years ago.

Yes, the keep on a charter boat (or any boat) is based on the number of people fishing. All charter boats do is give access to fishing grounds to people who may not otherwise be able to fish.

However, the interesting point is the situation of a 2 keeper limit, 3 paying customers, and 2 crew (captain and mate) and they keep 10 fish. If the captain and mate let the paying customers keep the extra 4 fish, are they not in fact commercial fishing? I would think that once the customers walk off the dock with the extra fish it is in effect poaching since they are paying for the fish. (This would not be the case as on my boat where I might give a friend my two fish, since the friend isn't paying for the trip).

Agree?

[MAKAI]

For instance.
When the duke takes a 1200 dollar bass charter out at the end of the day he was bass fishing for money. A commercial endeavor.
When he takes us out comm fishing with him, at the end of the day he was bass fishing for money, a commercial endeavor.
Outward appearances everything is the same. (other than the amount of fish potentially killed per day but he also has a much longer window of opportunity chartering )
Everyone should document their bass kill.
Commercial
Charter
Rec
Very easy to do, If anyone wants to.
Would sure help with all the Guesstimating going on.

[Sweetwater]

Originally Posted by MAKAI

For instance.
When the duke takes a 1200 dollar bass charter out at the end of the day he was bass fishing for money. A commercial endeavor.
When he takes us out comm fishing with him, at the end of the day he was bass fishing for money, a commercial endeavor.
Outward appearances everything is the same. (other than the amount of fish potentially killed per day but he also has a much longer window of opportunity chartering )
Everyone should document their bass kill.
Commercial
Charter
Rec
Very easy to do, If anyone wants to.
Would sure help with all the Guesstimating going on.

It would be a pain in the butt to document every bass you take over the year, but maybe that's where we're headed. I know I do a survey for NOAA since I have a HMS license. I guess my view is this; if we're going to have scientists and politicians regulating our sport, the least they can do is use good data.

[MAKAI]

For most of us just a handful of dead fish a year,
just send it in electronically.
I am only talking dead fish here.
Done once at the end of the year
Not talking weights and measures just a body count.

You have a Her Majesties Ship license.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by trapperpierre

........Rec/charter released fish that die and landings tally up to 4/5 of of all dead bass ...rec/charter landings plus release mortality=greatest death of stripers..next case

Nope. The ASMFC technical committee says your numbers are bogus.
Go read it. Coastwide commercial take is higher than recreational take (which includes charter catch, likely the lion's share of the recreational catch). The prior private rec numbers that you are using are off by 70%.

Time for a new song, your old one belongs with the Who.

[piemma]

I dropped a note to Beth Daley, who wrote the article. She responded that she has been hearing from tons of recreational guys like me that the limit has to be reduced and the size increased.

I believe that we should all push for 36", 1 fish a day. Unfortunately a few of us have been saying this for 6 or 7 years but it seems no one in authority wants to listen.

[Fisherwoman]

Ok I gotta jump in here for a minute, 1st of all as a charter boat you have to carry a federal permit on you boat which covers all ground fish and striped Bass and bluefish, we have to send them in a slip for every trip we do and the count of every fish we catch and wether they are kept or released. So as for the charter fleet they know exactly how many fish we are catchihng. We also have to carry a commerical permit as well if we want to commerical fish for striped bass. Those permits also require documentation for every fish you keep and sell.

ALways remember that just because a person owns a charter boat does not mean he is catching and KEEPING ever fish that comes to the boat, most of our clients only want 1 fish to take home and alot of them just want them released, we are a means for fisherman to get out on the water and fish for what they love, no different that a shore fisherman who does not own a boat and can pay a fee to get offshore.

What amazes me in this whole argument over an over again of recreational Striped Bass anglers against commercial striped bass fisherman. The biggest killer of Striped Bass biomass is BYCATCH from draggers and longliners.

They can kill thousands and thousands of pounds a day of multiple species of fish including ALOT of striped bass because they are out in the zone that these fish are hanging around like Stellwagon Bank,
Even though they can not put there equipment on the bank they can still put it all around it. and the real issue with the bycatch is IT IS NOT COUNTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Millions of pound of fish killed every year and just thrown back in the water and NOT COUNTED

This back and forth argument between recreational anglers and commercial rod and reel anglers is really getting old.
The difference between recreation anglers is this, they can keep 2 fish per day over 28 inches.

Rod and reel commercial fisherman can keep Striped Bass OVER 34inchs and UP !! 30 bass a day, 3 days a week, and 5 fish per day on sunday. Now I just want to say that there are a ton of commercial fisherman that we know out on the water around Boston harbor and they are lucky if they total 15 commercial fish in a WEEK.

The thing that is different with this type of commercial rod and reel fishing is They know exactly how big they have to be and if not they go back alive hopefully, also the only thing they catch are striped bass or bluefish, unless you have a ton of dog fish around.

SO at least they are not killing fish like long lining and gill netting as they do not check their gear everyday, as well as draggers that crush the bycatch of everything that comes on board. then it is sent back over dead, BUT NOT COUNTED, that is one of the things that need to change.

the other issue is forage for the fish, if we want these bass back in inshore waters than they need food to eat, if there is no bait there are no bass, simple logic, we saw it happen last year in the harbor when they took almost all of the pogies out of the inner harbor.

So stop bitchen and try and get involved like alot of the rest of us who are writing letters, and making phone call to congressman and getting involed to make this a better fisherie, not just bitchin about who does what and we have no fish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry for the long rant but had to get that out of my system, OK carry on!!!

[stiff tip]

everthing you said . but way too much finger pointing..quick story...out of chatham early season mid 90s we would pull the gill nets and have 100s of lbs on each hall as bycatch ,only to toss um over to float away, cause we cant sell them. who's fault ???

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Fisherwoman

Ok I gotta jump in here for a minute, 1st of all as a charter boat you have to carry a federal permit on you boat which covers all ground fish and striped Bass and bluefish, we have to send them in a slip for every trip we do and the count of every fish we catch and wether they are kept or released. So as for the charter fleet they know exactly how many fish we are catchihng. We also have to carry a commerical permit as well if we want to commerical fish for striped bass. Those permits also require documentation for every fish you keep and sell.

This is presuming that everyone appropriately reports their catch. How many people do you know that travel the speed limit? The risks of getting caught seem about the same.

This back and forth argument between recreational anglers and commercial rod and reel anglers is really getting old.
The difference between recreation anglers is this, they can keep 2 fish per day over 28 inches.

Rod and reel commercial fisherman can keep Striped Bass OVER 34inchs and UP !! 30 bass a day, 3 days a week, and 5 fish per day on sunday. Now I just want to say that there are a ton of commercial fisherman that we know out on the water around Boston harbor and they are lucky if they total 15 commercial fish in a WEEK.

True, but commercial fishermen don't get paid by the fish, they're paid by the pound so with bag limits, they target the biggest, oldest, healthiest fish. That removes those healthy 20+ year olds from the gene pool. Reports have been released that the Striped Bass are getting thinner relative to size, and point to these activities as a possible cause.

Reports around Boston Harbor seem to have been weak (maybe due to overfishing???) so it's no wonder people may have issues. Come on out to the Race and you'll see dozens of boats often maxing out every trip, it's no big secret.

the other issue is forage for the fish, if we want these bass back in inshore waters than they need food to eat, if there is no bait there are no bass, simple logic, we saw it happen last year in the harbor when they took almost all of the pogies out of the inner harbor.

Agreed. But, the seals would need to be dealt with as well.

[CaptMike]

Everybody wants to point fingers and say how dumb the scientists are and how stupid the latest conservation effort is while simultaneously complaining about how bad the fishing is( weird right?). Mass needs to go to 1 at 36" in my opinion. I like gamefish status but I think it's too hard to acheive. 1 at 36" could be done. We also really need to get on MD and VA. The 18" limit is ridiculous. It's in place because there are so few big fish there in the summer and people want to keep something. The catch and release season needs to be extended a lot longer I think also. The third saturday is April is way too soon as there are too many females that haven't spawned yet. These are easy things to fix. Change the dates and limits in the Chesapeake and change the limits in MA, these are the biggest striper areas and working towards changing limits and seasons there would really help. So many of the things we bicker about up here in New England I really feel are inconsequential. Seals may hurt the local fishery by eating bait but they've shown that seal really don't target fish over two pounds so they're a concern to stripers. They're also a marine mammal so we're never going to be able to touch them.

[Fisherwoman]

JohnnyD< not disagreeing that some people may not report, but if they get caught not turning in reports every month, they get a notice on non-compliance, which will revoke their permits. So they have to at least report something, if they get boarded, they better have all their permits in check as i have been boarded several time and they have gone thru to make sure they have it all in check.

As far as fish getting skinnier and that being the cause, way off base, the bass we have caught over the past 5-6 years have been healthier and heavier than any bass we have seen in a long time, weight VS lenght by far,and that is because of the pogies which are finally getting up this far north as they are the most nutrishes meal a bass can have.

Reports around Boston have nothing to do with overfishing, the fish need food and when it is removed the bass will go elsewhere to find it. There are more sand eels than ever that surround the race, and it is one forage of species we just don't get alot of in the harbor, that is why alot of bass get caught at the race and is why the bass where on the bank last year, there was a TON of sand eels to eat.

ONe fact you can not argue about is if the gillnetters had not come in last year and netted all the pogies up in the inside of Boston harbor as well as north harbors from Boston We would have had a much better season a great fall run no doubt about it.

As far as commerical catch only being by weight, an average 34 inch fish will go around 15 lbs to a max of 18 lbs and yes they are breeding fish, but the issue with fish right now is not the bigger bass my friend it is the smaller bass that are coming up short. So how can you blame a commercial guy for that!!! Yes they are breeder fish but at least they have had a chance to bread unlike a recreational fish at 28 inches.

Yes Seals need to be delbt with but in the harbor you can count on 1 hand how many seals are around, unlike the cape.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Fisherwoman

JohnnyD< not disagreeing that some people may not report, but if they get caught not turning in reports every month, they get a notice on non-compliance, which will revoke their permits. So they have to at least report something, if they get boarded, they better have all their permits in check as i have been boarded several time and they have gone thru to make sure they have it all in check.

Exactly my point. They just have to report *something*. There isn't any practical method for oversight to confirm accurate reporting. Thus, there's nothing preventing people from reporting 4 fish kept and 8 released when really the boat maxed out.

As far as fish getting skinnier and that being the cause, way off base, the bass we have caught over the past 5-6 years have been healthier and heavier than any bass we have seen in a long time, weight VS lenght by far,and that is because of the pogies which are finally getting up this far north as they are the most nutrishes meal a bass can have.

The above is the biggest issue with the "Fisherman's argument" and can be seen throughout the boards. The whole argument of "Well that's not my experience so it isn't the case." Personally, I caught my first 30# this year, and multiple 30# fish and they were all very fat. On the other hand, a lot of people I've talked to have said they are catching more and more racers. My understanding is that the old adage used to be "50 gets you 50" and I've talked to a few people that have landed 50"+ fish that didn't come close to 50#.

ONe fact you can not argue about is if the gillnetters had not come in last year and netted all the pogies up in the inside of Boston harbor as well as north harbors from Boston We would have had a much better season a great fall run no doubt about it.

Certainly wouldn't argue that the netters are destroying schools and issues with bait are probably the second biggest risk to the striped bass.

As far as commerical catch only being by weight, an average 34 inch fish will go around 15 lbs to a max of 18 lbs and yes they are breeding fish, but the issue with fish right now is not the bigger bass my friend it is the smaller bass that are coming up short. So how can you blame a commercial guy for that!!! Yes they are breeder fish but at least they have had a chance to bread unlike a recreational fish at 28 inches.

Yes Seals need to be delbt with but in the harbor you can count on 1 hand how many seals are around, unlike the cape.

How is the issue with smaller fish? According to the latest reports, the biomass of smaller fish is increasing.

I don't buy the "at least they've had a chance to breed" argument. The latest stock assessment has demonstrated that the biomass of fish over 8 years old is way down. How could that be? Because the biggest, healthiest fish are the ones being targeted. The latest assessment reports are also showing that the commercial take could be very understated. So, the commercial take is over 50% and commercials tend to target the biggest, healthiest fish. Seems like a good cause for the biomass of 8+ year old fish to be going down.

There's also no denying that as you target bigger fish, you're killing a significantly higher percentage of breeder females.