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Old 12-26-2017, 12:28 PM   #1
JohnR
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Fascinating read on Disinformation and an example of how widespread

Cannot recommend to read enough:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/12...alice-donovan/

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Old 12-26-2017, 04:56 PM   #2
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That is a mouthful certainly

Believe nothing you hear, and half of what you see.
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Old 12-26-2017, 05:25 PM   #3
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Good piece if but a bit long. If this surprises anyone you're not paying attention.
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Old 12-26-2017, 06:11 PM   #4
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Wasn't this mysterious Donovan regurgitating what was already in the media?
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Old 12-26-2017, 08:07 PM   #5
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And yet our potus has a love affair with Putin, who has a probably dozens and dozens of these same ghosts writing just exacting what he wants, we are at war even if you donít see bombs dropping and bloody bodies in the streets. He has made it his mission to attack our justice department, the cia, the fbi and now has upped his game of overstepping and abusing his presidential powers by intimidating the very witnesses that may be called on to testify about Russian involvement with our election and possible collusion by his own campaign.
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Old 12-26-2017, 10:03 PM   #6
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This must be some of that disinformation stuff. It can't be true because Trump loves Putin:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...cid=spartanntp
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Old 12-27-2017, 09:05 AM   #7
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He still has to give the appearance he's doing his job and part of that is supporting our allies and our interests in Europe, doesn't mean he's strong on the cyber warfare Russia has and is still waging on the US and other democratic countries.
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Old 12-27-2017, 10:53 AM   #8
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I'm sure the Ukrainians love the "appearance" of the weapons they are being provided.
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Old 12-27-2017, 12:52 PM   #9
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Congress approved arms sales to the Ukraine in 2014, I suspect that while this final approval was heavily supported by top Trump national security Cabinet officials and Congress I suspect it will complicate President Trump’s stated ambition to work with Russian President Vladimir Putin. If I were a fly on the wall during closed door discussions on this, I'd bet Trump was not to happy about it.

I'm happy that he is taking his 111st day at his resort, I know for sure he needs the rest, my God watching 8 hours of TV a day would wipe me out for sure. Although I've seen his golf swing, he definitely needs some work on that, so I hope he gets in a lesson or two. Secret service golf cart rentals alone this year are over $145,000, nice that his resort is making money while he takes time off, it's a win-win for the Donald.

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Old 12-27-2017, 01:45 PM   #10
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Congress approved arms sales to the Ukraine in 2014,

Yet it didn't happen till the Trump era.

I suspect that while this final approval was heavily supported by top Trump national security Cabinet officials and Congress I suspect it will complicate President Trump’s stated ambition to work with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Yeah, and other things have complicated Trump's supposed love of Putin, like his bombing of the Syrian air base, and recognition of Jerusalem as capital of Israel, and some of his executive orders. And he hasn't been in office a year yet.

If I were a fly on the wall during closed door discussions on this, I'd bet Trump was not to happy about it.

I wouldn't know if he was happy or sad. His MO always seems to have been to have a goal, then get experts to implement it. That's why he gets rid of those who don't make his goal happen. Unless you know what his goal is vis a vis the Ukraine, you cannot know if he is happy with arming it.

I'm happy that he is taking his 111st day at his resort, I know for sure he needs the rest, my God watching 8 hours of TV a day would wipe me out for sure. Although I've seen his golf swing, he definitely needs some work on that, so I hope he gets in a lesson or two. Secret service golf cart rentals alone this year are over $145,000, nice that his resort is making money while he takes time off, it's a win-win for the Donald.
Should he be striving for lose-lose?
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Old 12-27-2017, 02:33 PM   #11
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I'm happy that he is taking his 111st day at his resort, I know for sure he needs the rest, my God watching 8 hours of TV a day would wipe me out for sure. Although I've seen his golf swing, he definitely needs some work on that, so I hope he gets in a lesson or two. Secret service golf cart rentals alone this year are over $145,000, nice that his resort is making money while he takes time off, it's a win-win for the Donald.
The White House has parked a truck outside of Trump's golf course in attempt to block the view of trump golfing. What a joke. The hypocrisy in these Republicans is amazing. Remember when this forum would be a buzz with how many times Obama played golf, now nothing.
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Old 12-27-2017, 03:07 PM   #12
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Should he be striving for lose-lose?
I hope we survive the "Trump Era". This thread started to discuss disinformation, phantom ghost writers, Russian backed social media efforts to not only interfere in our elections, but to influence the public's perspective of things Russia (you could probably add NK and China) feels are in their best interest globally. To Russia that's attacking anything democratic, but yet our Potus still has a hard time admitting Russian meddling even happened. Just kills me that he even goes so far as to state he believe's Putin is being honest when he tells him Russia didn't do it.

You of course are well trained in the Trump tactic of misdirection and changing the subject is a predictable tactic, is that because you don't perceive this new cyber warfare a problem? Possibly it's because like Trump, if you admit that the Russians indeed did meddle and likely influence our 2016 election, then it somehow taints the Trump win?

US policies that were in place and I suspect regardless of who won in 2016, probably wouldn't have changed all that much in the handling of the Ukraine or the Syria arenas, however I'll give you a Trump high five for the redirection; it was as predictable as many of your next responses likely are.
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Old 12-27-2017, 05:00 PM   #13
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Talk about disinformation

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/17/u...aws-bills.html
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Old 12-27-2017, 05:04 PM   #14
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I hope we survive the "Trump Era".
I wouldn't count on it...
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Old 12-27-2017, 05:44 PM   #15
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I hope we survive the "Trump Era".

No doubt, we will all die.

This thread started to discuss disinformation, phantom ghost writers, Russian backed social media efforts to not only interfere in our elections, but to influence the public's perspective of things Russia (you could probably add NK and China) feels are in their best interest globally. To Russia that's attacking anything democratic, but yet our Potus still has a hard time admitting Russian meddling even happened. Just kills me that he even goes so far as to state he believe's Putin is being honest when he tells him Russia didn't do it.

I recall that it started with a strange, inconclusive, article in which Russian cyber interference was not as heavily emphasized as you imply, but only a shadow part of the story. Nor did it get into Trump and his denials, or NK or China. Rather, the article covered the broad range of disinformation tactics, including CIA, NYT, Major US media outlets, which were all intentional efforts of disinformation. And it finally admitted that outlets, such as the very one publishing the article, Counterpunch itself, were partly responsible for unintentionally spreading disinformation because of their zeal to reveal and spread information to which the public is unaware.

The interesting detective story of Counterpunch's search for the identity of Alice Donovan couldn't implicate her as an agent of disinformation. Her stories were not false nor were they disinformation. Nor did they appear to promote Russian interests.
According to the article "None of her stories focus specifically on Russia. When they do mention Russia, it’s largely in the context of the Syrian war. Some are critical of Hillary Clinton. Others are critical of Donald Trump. Mostly the stories are about policy, not politics. None are especially earth-shaking. They are read, but not widely disseminated."

Her articles were all copies or rewrites of existing stories already disseminated in various media. She was guilty not of disinformation, but of plagiarizing and not identifying herself.

The article was an example of how disinformation could be spread, intentionally or unintentionally, even by the publisher of the article. But cyber space is only a new vehicle for trafficking disinformation which has been spread by every other means known to human societies. The article shows a cyber way. And why we have to be wary and circumspect.



You of course are well trained in the Trump tactic of misdirection and changing the subject is a predictable tactic,

I didn't change the subject. There was an important section in the article which related exactly to my post about Trump arming the Ukraine. A small piece of that section is "While the current US administration has stopped short of supplying Ukraine with lethal weapons, it has been a strong supporter of Ukraine with financial aid, and has slapped sanctions on Russia in protest at its actions. With Trump in the White House many in Kiev fear they could be abandoned."

I'm not going to accuse you of misdirection, or being trained by anti-Trumpists, but I wonder if you actually read the article.


is that because you don't perceive this new cyber warfare a problem?

It's a new form of an old problem. The old established media was and is filled with disinformation. The new online media surely is not going to escape the problem. The advantage of the new media is that opposing views, most of which are not funded by large financially interested entities, nor by government sponsorship, are readily available, and much more so than with the old, established, and highly politicized media.

Possibly it's because like Trump, if you admit that the Russians indeed did meddle and likely influence our 2016 election, then it somehow taints the Trump win?

Russians influencing the election is a canard that doesn't interest me. And as far as tainting an election, can you name a presidential election which was not "tainted" according to biased opinions. The object is to win, battered and scarred by opposing political rhetoric, then do what your electorate voted for. So far, Trump has been doing things I approve of. I don't care about his style or whatever someone wants to taint him with.

US policies that were in place and I suspect regardless of who won in 2016, probably wouldn't have changed all that much in the handling of the Ukraine or the Syria arenas, however I'll give you a Trump high five for the redirection; it was as predictable as many of your next responses likely are.
It's convenient to say that when something you approve of would have been done regardless of who won, but if it's something you don't like, then it's specifically on Trump. I give him kudos. You can taint him however it suits you.

Last edited by detbuch; 12-27-2017 at 06:30 PM..
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Old 12-27-2017, 10:20 PM   #16
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You said a mouthful there....."I don't care about his style".....I'd go farther; it's obvious those that rally in support of Trump don't care about his morals, his complete lack of decency or his constant attacks on those institutions entrusted to protect our nation.

In the 2nd amendment thread, there was this constant argument about needing the arms to prevent a tyrannical government from taking power; what about the tyrannical leader?

ty∑ran∑ni∑cal
təˈranək(ə)l/Submit
adjective
exercising power in a cruel or arbitrary way.
"her father was portrayed as tyrannical and unloving"
synonyms: dictatorial, despotic, autocratic, oppressive, repressive, totalitarian, undemocratic, illiberal; More
characteristic of tyranny; oppressive and controlling.
"a momentary quieting of her tyrannical appetite"I personally don't believe the means justifies the ends.

tyrannical
[ti-ran-i-kuh l, tahy-]
Spell Syllables
Synonyms Examples Word Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
adjective
1.
of or characteristic of a tyrant.
2.
unjustly cruel, harsh, or severe; arbitrary or oppressive; despotic:
a tyrannical ruler.

Traits our Potus exemplifies to the extreme. Even suggest you are NOT a Trump fan and the tweets rain down, the personal attacks are unending, even crossing over into witness intimidation and nobody is immune. The justice department took a hit, the CIA, the FBI and now he's about to launch a campaign to convince the american public and those around him that Flynn can't do anything but lie thereby any testimony can't be trusted. Gee can you think why these institutions are constantly under attack and that Mueller's cooperating witness is now in Trumps cross hairs. What happened to his never ending praise of Flynn, oh yeah it served his purpose to wave the Flynn flag then, but not now that he's a cooperating witness it's a different song. Sorry Donald, yeah he did get indited for lying, but any testimony moving forward will be completely vetted for that very reason, with complete supporting documentation and supporting testimony's if more convictions are coming. Ironic that the biggest liar our country has ever put in office is going to use that argument to attack Flynn.

You have every right to your opinion of Trump and his actions, as do I. You continue to see him through your rose colored glasses, I see him in a different light and as an independent not through blue glasses either. I see a man comfortable abusing women, I see someone without shame in mocking the disabled, disrespecting military heroes, I see a man ok with bullying those that speak out against him, I see a man using rhetoric so unprofessional and so disrespectful I'd probably not want my young kids listening to it. Not the good role model I'd want my young kids looking up to, thankfully they are all in their 30's.
While politics where not discussed at the kitchen table when they were teens, based on conversations we've had lately, they and the majority of their friends agree with my assessment of the man.

I suspect women and the young in this country will be his downfall and likely the GOP. I think he has just screwed himself and the party with his abusive behavior towards women, his endorsement of Moore and the division he has spread across this country. I'm optimistic that the young voters are too smart not to see this clown for the poser he is.

I hope we do survive the Trump era, but it's not going to be a smooth ride and I pray that big global crisis holds off until the next term.
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Old 12-27-2017, 11:11 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Got Stripers View Post
You said a mouthful there....."I don't care about his style".....I'd go farther; it's obvious those that rally in support of Trump don't care about his morals, his complete lack of decency or his constant attacks on those institutions entrusted to protect our nation.

In the 2nd amendment thread, there was this constant argument about needing the arms to prevent a tyrannical government from taking power; what about the tyrannical leader?

ty∑ran∑ni∑cal
təˈranək(ə)l/Submit
adjective
exercising power in a cruel or arbitrary way.
"her father was portrayed as tyrannical and unloving"
synonyms: dictatorial, despotic, autocratic, oppressive, repressive, totalitarian, undemocratic, illiberal; More
characteristic of tyranny; oppressive and controlling.
"a momentary quieting of her tyrannical appetite"I personally don't believe the means justifies the ends.

tyrannical
[ti-ran-i-kuh l, tahy-]
Spell Syllables
Synonyms Examples Word Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
adjective
1.
of or characteristic of a tyrant.
2.
unjustly cruel, harsh, or severe; arbitrary or oppressive; despotic:
a tyrannical ruler.

Traits our Potus exemplifies to the extreme. Even suggest you are NOT a Trump fan and the tweets rain down, the personal attacks are unending, even crossing over into witness intimidation and nobody is immune. The justice department took a hit, the CIA, the FBI and now he's about to launch a campaign to convince the american public and those around him that Flynn can't do anything but lie thereby any testimony can't be trusted. Gee can you think why these institutions are constantly under attack and that Mueller's cooperating witness is now in Trumps cross hairs. What happened to his never ending praise of Flynn, oh yeah it served his purpose to wave the Flynn flag then, but not now that he's a cooperating witness it's a different song. Sorry Donald, yeah he did get indited for lying, but any testimony moving forward will be completely vetted for that very reason, with complete supporting documentation and supporting testimony's if more convictions are coming. Ironic that the biggest liar our country has ever put in office is going to use that argument to attack Flynn.

You have every right to your opinion of Trump and his actions, as do I. You continue to see him through your rose colored glasses, I see him in a different light and as an independent not through blue glasses either. I see a man comfortable abusing women, I see someone without shame in mocking the disabled, disrespecting military heroes, I see a man ok with bullying those that speak out against him, I see a man using rhetoric so unprofessional and so disrespectful I'd probably not want my young kids listening to it. Not the good role model I'd want my young kids looking up to, thankfully they are all in their 30's.
While politics where not discussed at the kitchen table when they were teens, based on conversations we've had lately, they and the majority of their friends agree with my assessment of the man.

I suspect women and the young in this country will be his downfall and likely the GOP. I think he has just screwed himself and the party with his abusive behavior towards women, his endorsement of Moore and the division he has spread across this country. I'm optimistic that the young voters are too smart not to see this clown for the poser he is.

I hope we do survive the Trump era, but it's not going to be a smooth ride and I pray that big global crisis holds off until the next term.
This is hilarious. You accused me of changing the subject, which I didn't. And here you go off subject on a wild rant, most of which is the kind of exaggeration or hyperbole that Trump is accused of, much has been debunked, most is not substantiated but opinion based on disinformation (which is ironic in that's what this thread is actually about).

And you now want to bring up the threat of tyranny when you scoffed at the notion that the right to bear arms for protection against tyranny was ridiculous and unnecessary.

And you say that Trump "exemplifies to the extreme" traits such as "unjustly cruel, harsh, or severe; arbitrary or oppressive; despotic: a tyrannical ruler." That is getting off some really deep end. Surprised that PaulS isn't calling you out to be a hater.

Get it together, man. Everything is OK. The country is in better shape now than it was before Trump got in. Things are looking good. Tweets are not substantive threats on the institutions of this country. Trump is not "totalitarian, undemocratic, illiberal." He is following the law. He is not acting unconstitutionally.

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Old 12-28-2017, 08:39 AM   #18
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My post is my counter to your perception of the man and the job he is doing, goose-gander buddy. I'm still not concerned about a tyrannical government forming, as we have enough checks and balances; but I thought it ironic that we have a leader exhibiting the same traits that 2A thread raised concerns about.

I'd not bet all your money on everything being debunked, Mueller has indited key people and is working his way up the food chain, which is why Trump is now playing defense in attacking the FBI and getting his GOP ass kissers to join in to try to kill the independent investigation.

I don't hate Trump, but I do despise him for the way he is governing and degrading the highest office in the world with his juvenile and caustic behavior. Don't worry about me, I sleep fine each and every night. I do have issues that our POTUS spends 8 hours watching TV because his ego just can't stand anyone attacking him, only to go off on a Twitter rant the following morning; I sincerely hope sanctions against NK do the job before this thin skinned child needs to make a world changing decision.
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Old 12-28-2017, 11:36 AM   #19
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My post is my counter to your perception of the man and the job he is doing, goose-gander buddy.

I don't think I've stated my full perception of Trump. I've looked at the extremely negative stuff said about him and found that most of it is exaggerated or untrue. That doesn't mean I'd choose him as a personal friend, or that I like all of his self inflating brags about women or success. But I don't like all of the things I've done in my past either. I have been far from the personally perfect and righteous man that some seem to believe they are on this forum. But I have learned from my mistakes and believe I am a better man today than I was before. Maybe, because of that, I am not that judgmental about someone's past behavior. Who you are now is how I perceive you.

Regarding women, it seems that Trump has changed since he met and married Melania. But even before that, his misadventures with women, if they can be judged as that, are, in my opinion after doing some research, overstated. I suppose he invites that with his own hyper self congratulations.

I do wince when he brags on himself about how well he is doing or how successful he has been. But I like what he has done so far in his present office.

I'm still not concerned about a tyrannical government forming, as we have enough checks and balances; but I thought it ironic that we have a leader exhibiting the same traits that 2A thread raised concerns about.

I stated those concerns myself before he was elected. That's why I said then that what Progressives had done in evolving our political system to a far more powerful central government than the Founders created could be a threat to our liberties. I specifically said in one thread that the power and expectations invested in our modern Presidents that Progressives and those who voted for them created could some day come back to bite them in their butt when someone from the other side like Trump got elected. I have specifically pointed out that the checks and balances put in the Constitution have been pretty much subverted not only by various SCOTUS decisions which "interpreted" more power into the federal government than it was meant to have, but also and especially by the formation of all of its regulatory agencies which have been given plenary legislative, executive, and judicial power--the total elimination of any check or balance, and so a huge elimination of checks on federal power to legislate against the states' or the people's will. The Progressive replacement of constitutional government with its version of an administrative state if finally and fully implemented will be the full elimination of those checks and balances that you think protects us from tyrannical government.

So far, I'm OK with what Trump has done. Especially his selection of SCOTUS Judge and the erasing of several Obama executive orders which had expanded even further the power of the administrative state.

I'd not bet all your money on everything being debunked, Mueller has indited key people and is working his way up the food chain, which is why Trump is now playing defense in attacking the FBI and getting his GOP ass kissers to join in to try to kill the independent investigation.

Well, that's certainly one way of looking at it . . .

I don't hate Trump, but I do despise him

I'm thinking that you do both--definition of hate per Wiki: "To dislike intensely or greatly." Example given "I hate men who take advantage of women." Maybe I'm wrong, but sounds a lot like what you've said about Trump fits this definition. But that's a minor quibble, neither here nor there.

for the way he is governing and degrading the highest office in the world with his juvenile and caustic behavior.

That highest office, as well as the rest of the offices of the federal government have already been greatly degraded from their classically liberal station as the protector of our individual rights and freedoms into the despotic system which attempts at, and often succeeds in, defining or redefining what our rights and freedoms are. Ironically, Trump, who you call a tyrant, has done a bit to retard and repeal some of that degradation. As far as his behavior goes, check out the behavior of all our past Presidents. You'll find a lot of caustic, disreputable behavior going on. Even by many of the "great" ones. In the end, they are judged by their accomplishments, not their behavior.

Don't worry about me, I sleep fine each and every night. I do have issues that our POTUS spends 8 hours watching TV because his ego just can't stand anyone attacking him, only to go off on a Twitter rant the following morning; I sincerely hope sanctions against NK do the job before this thin skinned child needs to make a world changing decision.
OK, just a bit harsh, and a tiny bit hateful, but otherwise sounds good to me.

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Old 12-28-2017, 12:34 PM   #20
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I'm not completely unhappy with Trump, it was time we tightened our borders and tightened up vetting practices. I'm not unhappy with some of his appointments and while I think he has raised the level of hate and division in this country, I think it is one of the primary reasons you will see a major interest in the electoral process. My three boys are perfect examples, as there was little to no discussion of politics when they were young, but now it's hard not to get into a discussion when they visit. It is for that reason I think women and the young are going to be Trump's and the GOP's downfall moving forward in the mid terms and certainly in the next presidential election.
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Old 12-28-2017, 03:21 PM   #21
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I'm not completely unhappy with Trump, it was time we tightened our borders and tightened up vetting practices. I'm not unhappy with some of his appointments and while I think he has raised the level of hate and division in this country, I think it is one of the primary reasons you will see a major interest in the electoral process. My three boys are perfect examples, as there was little to no discussion of politics when they were young, but now it's hard not to get into a discussion when they visit. It is for that reason I think women and the young are going to be Trump's and the GOP's downfall moving forward in the mid terms and certainly in the next presidential election.
The level of division and hate has been rising for a long time. I believe the divisive and hate filled reactions for or against Trump are symptoms and effects which are fueled by deliberate disinformation from all sides (touching back a bit on the subject of this thread). But the cause of these symptoms and effects goes well beyond Trumpism. Rather the cause is the growing fundamental divide in our political philosophy. That's why I highlighted a section of your post with bold letters.

I am hoping that the young (as well as the rest of us) will be more fundamentally concerned about and examine our political process, historically and philosophically as applied to the now, rather than be stuck only on surface levels of debatable statistics and outrage over politically manufactured charges of socially offensive behavior.

Politics being what it is, the surface bickering and name calling won't go away. But if our fundamental classically liberal political structure based on individual freedom disappears and is replaced by a quagmire of progressively relativistic ideologies, we will be led by the nose from unstable social policies to failed economic policies through a mine field of feckless opinions, guided by a fascistic bureaucracy from which the most activist among us may finally invite a true populist tyrant to whom we will give total power in order to save us from self destruction. Or from being conquered by a more principled foreign invader or foreign ideology.

And disinformation is a powerful tool which can help bring about that social and political suicide. So, when talking politics, we must focus on first principles above transitory symptoms and effects caused by hearsay and disinformation. Or we will go the way all of all societies which fail to do so.
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