Mass Striper decline numbers from NOAA

[Fisherwoman]

I do not disagree that we have a decline in the number of fish.

But I do agree bait matters, and where there is food you will find fish.

But over the past 5-6 years, where have all the baby bunker been, we have not seen a huge fall run of fish in most of those states for many years. But back 6-10 years ago we had baby bunker everywhere. I can remember year after year going to the Vineyard and having so much baby bunker you could walk on it and the fishing at that time was awesome.

5-6 years ago we had so many big pogies in the harbor you could have walked on them and were pulling fish over the rail every day 20-35 lb fish and releasing them back.

There were 4 Pogies boats that went back into business a few years ago for one season and whiped boston harbor, salem harbor and a few other places clean out of pogies, the next season we had hardly any and it took us 4 hours of netting just to get enough to fish with for a day. so were are all the baby bunker????

I have seen alot of mackerel the past several years, and herring in balls like no other but there is something that has happened the past several years that we have not had that sustainable bait in the later part of the season,

I also want to know WHY BYCATCH IS not counted as lost numbers of fish. You have draggers and trawler putting bycatch over the rail all day long, as well as long liners, not just Stripers but everything!!! Why is that not counted in all of the loss of species factor!!!!

The cod are in trouble, Haddock is not as good as it was, they have even increased the quota on dogfish so they are eating less fish as well, so why is it that those numbers are not counted toward declines in fisheries???

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by jimmy z

There is one tournament that claims to have 3000 entries and a ten(10) fish limit. Don't know too much about that one up in MA. But that's not a catch and release thing I gather. If not, 30,000 bass is 30,000 bass.

I stopped entering it, but in all fairness, nowhere near 30,000 fish get entered. In the years that I did enter it, I weighed in exactly one fish. It was gill hooked and bleeding like a stuck pig anyway. It just happened to win me a weekly prize.

When fish in the low 30s are the Grand Leaders in the MV Derby (back in the 90s, when bass were first re-entered, you needed 50+ to even be on the board, and even in the 80s, guys took 40s and 50s from the beach and released them because they weren't Derby-eligible), you know something's wrong.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by thefishingfreak

There was a school of bass 10 miles long off the backside spotted by a few spotter planes. day after day all summer long but I guess the Pratt family probly made that up.
Lets not forget the commercial bass quota only took 17 days to fill
NOAA can't count there own toes
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

One big population on the backside, yet an absence of fish everywhere else... stocks must be healthy.

Didn't there used to be a time when you didn't need a boat to catch stripers because the fish were literally everywhere along the shore?

[JackK]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

One big population on the backside, yet an absence of fish everywhere else... stocks must be healthy.

Didn't there used to be a time when you didn't need a boat to catch stripers because the fish were literally everywhere along the shore?

Do you mean littorally?

Sorry, couldn't resist the pun...
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[MikeToole]

Originally Posted by Ed B

Something here doesn't make sense. The only link posted is to a secure website. Do the guys posting these graphs have any other links to the place where this is coming from?

These graphs certainly don't coincide with data put out by the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission.

Ed B

Not sure what happened to the first link but try the link below and select "catch" query. You should be able to get the tables I posted for each state.

You really need to look at the ASMFC tables closely. The 2006 to2011 data shows about a 33% decrease in recreational kept but then it shows about a 75% decrease in the release numbers. If you add the C&R numbers together you see a decrease of about 70% decrease. This is on page 18 of the 2011 assessment. If you look at the table on page 19 you will see that the states at the North and South ends of the range have seen the biggest drops.

ASMFC says that stripers are not overfished because the stock numbers are above the SSB Threshold. Problem is in my opinion if we drop the stock to the Threshold number Maine, NH, Mass North Shore, VA, NC will not have a migratory stripe bass fishery.

http://www.st.nmfs.noaa.gov/st1/recr...ies/index.html

[jimmy z]

Originally Posted by Mike P

I stopped entering it, but in all fairness, nowhere near 30,000 fish get entered. In the years that I did enter it, I weighed in exactly one fish. It was gill hooked and bleeding like a stuck pig anyway. It just happened to win me a weekly prize.

When fish in the low 30s are the Grand Leaders in the MV Derby (back in the 90s, when bass were first re-entered, you needed 50+ to even be on the board, and even in the 80s, guys took 40s and 50s from the beach and released them because they weren't Derby-eligible), you know something's wrong.

I know that number seems extreme, but the site boasts of 3000 entries with a 10 fish total over the course of the tourny.
My point is Mike, with how things are with the bass, how can one site still want to promote such a tourny.
As many of us are trying to save what is left and hope things will be normal in a decade or so, there is still this type of mindset out there.
I know it's everyone's right or privilege to do what they feel is ok or do, just as long as rules and regs are followed. But does that really make it right?
There has to be a change. And the change has to come from the ones who fish for striped bass!
I know it goes deeper in some respects to the guys who eke out a living fishing, but that is something else again.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by JackK

Cod are managed federally by NOAA, SB are managed by state.



I was at the meeting on Friday, and this was addressed... Rauch said that data in particular has been updated, and it's not nearly as high as initially reported. Maybe BP can chime in on that one.

Horsehockey! they haven't rerun the numbers and they have even said they won't re run the numbers. NMFS is going to stick with the new assessment, warts and all, and that's what we are all going to have to live with.

[fatcow]

The bass are staying with the bait. Most fish are not migrating this far up. All the pogies stay south while we have sandeels. Why would u give
up prime rib for steak ums. 2 years ago everyone was pumped up about how the canal was red hot, macks everywhere same went for cape cod bay. Last year no macks no bait less fish people cry crash. Fish need a sustainable food supply to survive if there no food why stay in one area. They go were the food is.

[JackK]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

Horsehockey! they haven't rerun the numbers and they have even said they won't re run the numbers. NMFS is going to stick with the new assessment, warts and all, and that's what we are all going to have to live with.

Sorry, that's just not true. In terms of the overall garm assessment, yes, its being used. In terms of the specific April data, its been revisited. One set of data does not an entire model make
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by fatcow

The bass are staying with the bait. Most fish are not migrating this far up. All the pogies stay south while we have sandeels. Why would u give
up prime rib for steak ums. 2 years ago everyone was pumped up about how the canal was red hot, macks everywhere same went for cape cod bay. Last year no macks no bait less fish people cry crash. Fish need a sustainable food supply to survive if there no food why stay in one area. They go were the food is.

[size=1]Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device[/size
Bs. Western LIS was filled with bunker all spring through June. We had more herring than anytime in 15 years. There are less bass. It is beyond any reasonable argument.

[MAKAI]

Originally Posted by fatcow

The bass are staying with the bait. Most fish are not migrating this far up. All the pogies stay south while we have sandeels. Why would u give
up prime rib for steak ums. 2 years ago everyone was pumped up about how the canal was red hot, macks everywhere same went for cape cod bay. Last year no macks no bait less fish people cry crash. Fish need a sustainable food supply to survive if there no food why stay in one area. They go were the food is.

A lot more at play here than just bait.

[piemma]

Originally Posted by fatcow

All the pogies stay south while we have sandeels.

Not true at all. You are way off on the pogies. Narragansett Bay had more pogies and they stayed longer than anytime in the past 40 years. The banning of the pogie boats from the upper Bay, EG, Bristol and the Providence River had a dramatic effect on the numbers of pogies. Hell, EG Bay had millions of adult pogies into November.

The Bass are in trouble, have been in trouble for 6 years and it will continue to get worse. I lived thru the moratorium in the 80s and helped with the recovery. I'm now 64 and probably will not live long enough to see another recovery.

[jimmy z]

Folks just really need to know what going on here with the bass. Many just see the bass as another species of fish. But the Striper is our thing, is what we do.
There are those out there that don't believe the bass are in trouble. What kind of denial is this? Why are some so resistant to see what's going on with the Striper?

[jimmy z]

Originally Posted by Fisherwoman

I do not disagree that we have a decline in the number of fish.

But I do agree bait matters, and where there is food you will find fish.

But over the past 5-6 years, where have all the baby bunker been, we have not seen a huge fall run of fish in most of those states for many years. But back 6-10 years ago we had baby bunker everywhere. I can remember year after year going to the Vineyard and having so much baby bunker you could walk on it and the fishing at that time was awesome.

5-6 years ago we had so many big pogies in the harbor you could have walked on them and were pulling fish over the rail every day 20-35 lb fish and releasing them back.

There were 4 Pogies boats that went back into business a few years ago for one season and whiped boston harbor, salem harbor and a few other places clean out of pogies, the next season we had hardly any and it took us 4 hours of netting just to get enough to fish with for a day. so were are all the baby bunker????

I have seen alot of mackerel the past several years, and herring in balls like no other but there is something that has happened the past several years that we have not had that sustainable bait in the later part of the season,

I also want to know WHY BYCATCH IS not counted as lost numbers of fish. You have draggers and trawler putting bycatch over the rail all day long, as well as long liners, not just Stripers but everything!!! Why is that not counted in all of the loss of species factor!!!!

The cod are in trouble, Haddock is not as good as it was, they have even increased the quota on dogfish so they are eating less fish as well, so why is it that those numbers are not counted toward declines in fisheries???

I read a book entitled, " COD" a few years back. The Cod of today are just a smidgen of what they were many moons ago. I'll include in your list, Flounder, Whiting and Ling(Silver Hake). And the latter were caught as a child the size of baseball bats.

The ones that take it all do so because this is their livelihood. This is what they do. It's an old way of life, a way of life that doesn't fit into the ways of today. Resistant to change, is what it is.
Just think about how this is. Stripers dwindling down, bait being eliminated from areas, yet the boats go about their business like all is well. What is this? Not caring? I think it's folks just doing what they always done because this is what they do.

[Alhbg]

Originally Posted by jimmy z

I read a book entitled, " COD" a few years back. The Cod of today are just a smidgen of what they were many moons ago. I'll include in your list, Flounder, Whiting and Ling(Silver Hake). And the latter were caught as a child the size of baseball bats.

The ones that take it all do so because this is their livelihood. This is what they do. It's an old way of life, a way of life that doesn't fit into the ways of today. Resistant to change, is what it is.
Just think about how this is. Stripers dwindling down, bait being eliminated from areas, yet the boats go about their business like all is well. What is this? Not caring? I think it's folks just doing what they always done because this is what they do.

This sums it up. Humans are a rapacious lot. Any species of plant or animal that can be eaten or turned into money will be cleaned out unless enforceable laws prevent it.

[Ed B]

Originally Posted by MikeToole

Not sure what happened to the first link but try the link below and select "catch" query. You should be able to get the tables I posted for each state.

You really need to look at the ASMFC tables closely. The 2006 to2011 data shows about a 33% decrease in recreational kept but then it shows about a 75% decrease in the release numbers. If you add the C&R numbers together you see a decrease of about 70% decrease. This is on page 18 of the 2011 assessment. If you look at the table on page 19 you will see that the states at the North and South ends of the range have seen the biggest drops.

ASMFC says that stripers are not overfished because the stock numbers are above the SSB Threshold. Problem is in my opinion if we drop the stock to the Threshold number Maine, NH, Mass North Shore, VA, NC will not have a migratory stripe bass fishery.

Recreational Fisheries Statistics Queries

Thanks for the link Mike. I have been running cases looking at angler effort. Something of note is that I see a significant reduction in Angler Effort for striped bass. Just a few years ago it looks like Angler Effort was in the order of 50% higher than what it was in 2011. Based on that, I would certainly expect a significant reduction in striped bass caught and also caught and released. I can see why the data as you queried shows a big drop, as fewer people pursue fewer fish.

Ed B

[Alhbg]

Originally Posted by Ed B

Thanks for the link Mike. I have been running cases looking at angler effort. Something of note is that I see a significant reduction in Angler Effort for striped bass. Just a few years ago it looks like Angler Effort was in the order of 50% higher than what it was in 2011. Based on that, I would certainly expect a significant reduction in striped bass caught and also caught and released. I can see why the data as you queried shows a big drop, as fewer people pursue fewer fish.

Ed B

I pulled the data from their site and calculated "Stripers per Trip" to account for the decline in fishing effort. The results still show a decline underway but it doesn't look as dramatic. Another trend that came out of this is the increasing percentage of fish that are harvested. This is not surprising given the big decline in small fish over the past few years.

[Raider Ronnie]

We had Paul Diadoti as guest speaker at the SBCA meeting last night and according to him stocks are very healthy for larger fish. The concern is the last 6-7 year class of new & schoolies have been pretty bad, a lot not to be found and a lot died off though last years class was very good.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[MAKAI]

Two years ago I personally told him this is the scenario that he would be looking at. He just shrugged and made a note.
From just another irrelevant old fart who spends a lot of time on the water.

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by Alhbg

The results still show a decline underway but it doesn't look as dramatic.

Follow the curve. About 2 or 3 more seasons until we are back to 1984 levels. Not a pretty picture.

[MikeToole]

Originally Posted by Ed B

Thanks for the link Mike. I have been running cases looking at angler effort. Something of note is that I see a significant reduction in Angler Effort for striped bass. Just a few years ago it looks like Angler Effort was in the order of 50% higher than what it was in 2011. Based on that, I would certainly expect a significant reduction in striped bass caught and also caught and released. I can see why the data as you queried shows a big drop, as fewer people pursue fewer fish.

Ed B

I guess you also have to look at why the effort numbers are so much lower. Last season on most nights I would only see a couple of people fishing, normally the same two guys. A few years ago it was normal to run into a dozen or more fisherman each night. During the day there was always some bait fisherman out but last year very few. The reason being is there just were to few fish around. Many of the people I knew who fish Maine, NH and Mass North shore have either stopped or greatly reduced their trips.

What is also happening is people like me are now making more trips to the canal and the cape. So as the fish range decreases you can expect to see an increase in the number of people fishing those areas.

[numbskull]

Last year's good YOY will provide plenty of fish in two to three years. The issue will be quality. It will be a decade before those fish are worth catching. What is left out there now will be long gone under current rules. So unnecessary, so stupid, so predictable.

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by MikeToole

What is also happening is people like me are now making more trips to the canal and the cape. So as the fish range decreases you can expect to see an increase in the number of people fishing those areas.

For the first time in my life, I stopped fishing the Canal before Columbus Day, last fall. There were some fish to be caught, but it just wasn't worth the effort.

Even as late as 2009, I had 50-60 fish nights early in the fall run.

Guys I know who hit it hard every night between mid-September and the start of bird season had the worst fall of the last 25 years.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by fatcow

Last year no macks no bait less fish people cry crash. Fish need a sustainable food supply to survive if there no food why stay in one area. They go were the food is.

No macks? There were thick schools of macks off the Race for almost the entire season. By your theory, we should have had more stripers than we knew what to do with.

Me thinks there's more to it than just bait.

[The Dad Fisherman]

There were Macks all over the North Shore for pretty much the entire summer last year

[DZ]

Just wondering - How has the Mass surfcasting been if you take the Canal out of the equation for the last few seasons? I stopped going on my annual trip to the Cape about 3-4 years back.

The RI surf where I fish has been hit or miss the last few years. We have plenty of bait and lots of bass at times - but also plenty of bait with no bass at other times.

DZ

[JohnnySaxatilis]

generally speaking south side of the cape and north into bh were ok during the spring for me, nothing regularly over 20# though. sever lack of small fish as well from what others tell me especially along nauset and the lower cape probably alot to do with the seal population explosion. nonexistant in the fall for me and my two regular fishing friends, it was depressing. my 2 cents

[Clammer]

Now add the cost of gas .

with less bass / guys are going to be alot less likely to ride around every night & I saw it last year / on how few boats were OTW during prime fishing times .

I,ve talked to quite a few people that are looking @ Freshwater ............ Much ofmy Schoolie guy will work in F/W & / even thro I thought Id never use it again / I kept my freshwater gear .

Many of you are talking about bait being a huge factor on the bass .
I believe it has some effect / But I think that has more to do with where the bass that [are] here go
Ton of bait at the tuna grounds / lots of large / Yet BB was very slow .
BI was & has been Hot in RI ............. Except for small at B/R & Watch Hill .the rest of the state pretty much sucked on a daily basis .
As I posted earlier / besides . a numbers game .........too many fisherman >< not enough fish .
no one in any of their posts .have mentioned anything about what I said earlier .
Which is very clear if you opening your eyes ................................. currently the Chessie is a sewer pit / with mico bacteria increasing // farmers still being allowed to have fertilizer & chicken #^&#^&#^&#^& seeping into the water everyday & now micro has now been found in other species besides Stripers .
lets not forget the miles of dead zones .. zero , none, nada ..live of anykind .
then what few survive .still have to make it thru miles of illegal nets & legal trawling ;
Lets throw in a Black market .................................................. .............. ALL of this & you thing a good year class is going to make a difference . First .. I heard that number was taken by a different method or location <<<< not sure & even if it was right / look at the chances of their survival rate .
IMO ,the only way to save the Striper this time is {IN ANY ORDER} Crack down on the pollutors . stop the insanse fishing antics/ methods / etc Both legal & illegal that goes on up & down the coast / But mostly Mayland to NC ;
Where killing large up here / because 90% 0f the smalls are gone . they are killing evrything .
I,m telling @ the current rate . it will be a forced closure in 3 - 4 years . & its not going to rebound like last time .... In the 80,s ..................most of the damage was done [fishing] /
This time add up all of the above & any other thing that could hurt & that sums it .
oH,,, throw in seals & commorants as added bonus .

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by JackK

Sorry, that's just not true. In terms of the overall garm assessment, yes, its being used. In terms of the specific April data, its been revisited. One set of data does not an entire model make
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

The ONLY thing that matters is the stock assessment, everything else is based on that, and they have not changed the numbers in the stock assessment.

[Clammer]

& you believe their assessment of the stock ????

There the ones . that were going to increase the commercial harvest , etc
Until both Commercial & rec went B/S ................................. then they did a 180 reverse & said the bass were in trouble & they laid out plans for changes in the current laws to reduce the catch ........ either by size or tonnage or both .
Then a [HAPPENING} . a good year class in 2011 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scrap that plan ..everything is status quo ........... Just figure the opposite of whatever they tell ya