girl solo sailor epibs went off this AM

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by likwid

Given the number of soldiers that have died the past few years in Iraq and Afghanistan, is it ignorant for parents to let their kids go into the military?

If the kid proved she could handle the boat then why would you deny her doing what she wanted?

Clueless. This saga has more in common with the "Balloon Boy" stunt than with a child deciding to serve his/her country. The country also recognizes that a 16 yo is not mature enough to make those sort of judgements.

Judgement, not boat handling, is what kids need to learn to survive. Tackling the S Indian Ocean alone in winter at age 16 is not good judgement. Gambling the life of your 16 yo to affirm your/their opinion that they are special isn't good judgement, either.

How'd a kid that age afford this boat anyways? Her parents buy it for her?

[likwid]

Originally Posted by numbskull

The country also recognizes that a 16 yo is not mature enough to make those sort of judgements.

Its sad when its this easy to make blanket judgements on people without having met them.

I'm glad I never had anyone in my life like you telling me "you can't do that, thats too risky, thats too dangerous, you're not mature enough".

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Seriously? I deny my kids something they want, all the time. I don't let my 10 year old eat candy bars for dinner, I don't let him choose not to do his homework. I don't let my teenager buy a convertible with her college savings. You see, there's a reason why kids need parents.

So how much time did you spend with Abby offshore in the Open 40 determining she's not capable of this then?

[Jim in CT]

Likwid...

"I'm glad I never had anyone in my life like you telling me "you can't do that, thats too risky,"

Did you have parents? Do you have kids (God I hope not)?

"So how much time did you spend with Abby offshore in the Open 40 determining she's not capable of this then?"

I spent exactly zero time with her. But I know that there's great reasons why 16 year-olds can't even drive a car in many states without adult supervision. I know that 16 year-olds aren't allowed to drink or even vote. Because they aren't developed enough, aren't mature enough, to make those kinds of decisions.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Did you have parents?

I was raised by an angry group of bowmen known as the bowmen's union. By the time I was 5 I was being chased by pro ho's. At 6 I scaled by hand my first 100+ foot rig in the middle of a gale to retrieve a halyard. By 12 they unveiled the ancient scripts from NYYC saying the one with the monkey feet would be the herald of the bowmen, which was me.

Ask Nebe, he'll vouch.

I was raised by extremely accomplished offshore sailors. My mother has more miles than most Navy folks will ever have.

Do you have kids (God I hope not)?

They would certainly get in the way of fishin and sailin.

I spent exactly zero time with her. But I know that there's great reasons why 16 year-olds can't even drive a car in many states without adult supervision. I know that 16 year-olds aren't allowed to drink or even vote. Because they aren't developed enough, aren't mature enough, to make those kinds of decisions.

So tell me what voting, drinking, or driving a car has to do with sailing solo? Other than absolutely NOTHING.

I'm sure you're a great dad and your kids love you, but don't ever tell anyone else what they can or can't do or what their kids can or can't do. They just might do it anyhow and make you look bad.

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

OK, so you're saying parents are never justified in saying "no" to teenagers because what they want is too risky...that's what you're seriously saying?

Lets put this bluntly.
You have exactly zero knowledge of what it takes to sail offshore solo.
You have exactly zero knowledge of this kid's background.

You have no right to judge her or the parents.

[Jim in CT]

Likwid...

"So tell me what voting, drinking, or driving a car has to do with sailing solo? Other than absolutely NOTHING."

Wrong. Those things (to do them safely and knowledgably) all require experience, maturity, wisdom, and the ability to understand the consequences of decisions.

"You have exactly zero knowledge of what it takes to sail offshore solo."

In terms of technical ability and seamenship, you are 100% correct in your assessment.

"You have exactly zero knowledge of this kid's background."

I assume (don't know for sure) she has spent an awful lot of time on the water. And I know for damn sure her parents are morons.

"You have no right to judge her or the parents"

Sorry, in your first post you called me "ignorant" and "stupid". So naturally I assumed that you were comfortable in judging others. I guessed I missed the announcement that you, and only you, were qualified to judge others.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Wrong. Those things (to do them safely and knowledgably) all require experience, maturity, wisdom, and the ability to understand the consequences of decisions.

Better go after basically every european family in the world who serves their kids wine at dinner!
Better go after countries with lower drinking ages too! Obviously they're all ignorant and their children are not 'mature' enough to do those things!

Sorry, in your first post you called me "ignorant" and "stupid". So naturally I assumed that you were comfortable in judging others. I guessed I missed the announcement that you, and only you, were qualified to judge others.

Ignorant was making blanket statements with zero knowledge of the boat, girl, or parents.

Ignorant is making blanket statements about what people can or can't do.

I see nobody has realized that she was being routed by professional weather routers. (Commanders, I'm sure NF is familiar with them. I personally hate them and think they're awful, but to each their own.) She was not making course decisions.

But I suppose you'd actually have to research and educate yourself on her attempt to know that.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by likwid

Better go after basically every european family in the world who serves their kids wine at dinner!
Better go after countries with lower drinking ages too! Obviously they're all ignorant and their children are not 'mature' enough to do those things!



Ignorant was making blanket statements with zero knowledge of the boat, girl, or parents.

Ignorant is making blanket statements about what people can or can't do.

I see nobody has realized that she was being routed by professional weather routers. (Commanders, I'm sure NF is familiar with them. I personally hate them and think they're awful, but to each their own.) She was not making course decisions.

But I suppose you'd actually have to research and educate yourself on her attempt to know that.

Likwid...

"Better go after basically every european family in the world who serves their kids wine at dinner!"

If they give the kids unsupervised access to the liquor cabinet, OK, I'll do that...

I stated previously that I've let my teenager drink wine a few times. I don't let her decide when she can drink, or how much she can drink, or whether or not she can drive after she drinks. I get to decide that. Adults and kids have different decision-making abilities, but not to you I guess.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by likwid

I'm glad I never had anyone in my life like you telling me "you can't do that, thats too risky, thats too dangerous, you're not mature enough".

OK, so you're saying parents are never justified in saying "no" to teenagers because what they want is too risky...that's what you're seriously saying?

What color is the sky on the planet you live on? Here on Earth, where I live, parents are supposed to watch kids, especially teenagers, like a hawk. Teenagers have very little appreciation for long-term consequences.

According to your logic, the next time my 10 year-old asks if he can drive the car, I shuold just hand over the keys. And he can decide whether or not to wear his seat belt, things like that?

[numbskull]

likwid, have you raised any teenaged children?
Until you do, you know nothing.
This is not about offshore sailing. This is about parental judgement....something you have no direct experience with it appears.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by numbskull

This is not about offshore sailing.

Yes actually it is.
Since you have zero knowledge of it in GENERAL, never mind sailing an Open 40, you have no concept to decide whether a 16 year old could or couldn't do it.

And parent's judgement? Its their kid. Its their decision to say go or no go. Not yours. And none of your business.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by likwid

Yes actually it is.

And parent's judgement? Its their kid. Its their decision to say go or no go. Not yours. And none of your business.

Here's what you can't understand. If this kid had died, I would feel awful about that, and I'd feel angry at the waste. I've seen too many teenagers die for noble causes, to comprehend why parents would allow such risks for something as meaningless as 15 minutes of fame (and she had a blog and website, so don't tell me that's not what motivated her in some fashion, which, by the way, is understandable for a kid).

In some way, all of us, even you, have a vested interest in the safety and quality of life of future generations.

And don't give me that "who are you to judge" crap, that's the last-ditch effort of someone who would never admit that someone else might have a point.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Here's what you can't understand. If this kid had died, I would feel awful about that, and I'd feel angry at the waste. I've seen too many teenagers die for noble causes, to comprehend why parents would allow such risks for something as meaningless as 15 minutes of fame (and she had a blog and website, so don't tell me that's not what motivated her in some fashion, which, by the way, is understandable for a kid).

In some way, all of us, even you, have a vested interest in the safety and quality of life of future generations.

And don't give me that "who are you to judge" crap, that's the last-ditch effort of someone who would never admit that someone else might have a point.

People lose their lives doing all kinds of things, hell even crossing the street, nevermind sitting infront of the TV getting fat and never doing anything with their life and having their heart go on revolt.

You DON'T have a point because you cannot put yourself into her shoes or anyone elses. You live in a little world that things need to be "safe" and "secure" where things are served to you in appropriate portions and nothing bad ever happens.

Thats not living.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by likwid

People lose their lives doing all kinds of things, hell even crossing the street, nevermind sitting infront of the TV getting fat and never doing anything with their life and having their heart go on revolt.

You DON'T have a point because you cannot put yourself into her shoes or anyone elses. You live in a little world that things need to be "safe" and "secure" where things are served to you in appropriate portions and nothing bad ever happens.

Thats not living.

Can you read likwid?

"People lose their lives doing all kinds of things, hell even crossing the street"

People have to cross the street. No one has to do something as dangerous as sailing solo around the world, much less a teenager. Your arguments just don't make sense.

"nevermind sitting infront of the TV getting fat and never doing anything with their life and having their heart go on revolt."

Oh, I see. So anyone who doesn't sail around the world solo at 16, is a sedentary couch potato with no reason to live.

I don't have to know her personally to care about her and wish her well. Nor do I have to know her personally to know when her parents are needlessly endangering her.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by likwid

People lose their lives doing all kinds of things, hell even crossing the street, nevermind sitting infront of the TV getting fat and never doing anything with their life and having their heart go on revolt.

You DON'T have a point because you cannot put yourself into her shoes or anyone elses. You live in a little world that things need to be "safe" and "secure" where things are served to you in appropriate portions and nothing bad ever happens.

Thats not living.

My last post on this thread...

"You live in a little world that things need to be "safe" and "secure" where things are served to you in appropriate portions and nothing bad ever happens. "

Let's see, I did 2 combat tours in Iraq with the USMC as the CO of a weapons company. I've been in for-real combat, and I lost 2 kids under my command. I bet I know ALMOST AS WELL AS YOU, that bad things do happen.

In fact, it's precisely because I know that bad things happen, that I see no reason to go begging for trouble. Children's lives are about the most precious thing I can imagine, I don't see the value in risking it for a bit of notoriety.

I also don't like it when someone insults me right off the bat, then has the hutzpah to tell me I have no right to judge others, just because you know you don't have the logical ability to defend your position.

[MarshCappa]

Alright, I think this event has brought out some interesting debate and may have gotten a little to personal but I think we're all big boys here and can take it. We have 2 camps here with valid points made on both sides.

This is a sailing family we're talking about here that feels they made the right decisions for a kid that obviously is talented and mature beyond her actual age. I support their judgement and in some ways I am envious that they have kids that have drive, intelligence, and the guts to do something with their lives instead of sitting on the sidelines and watching the world go by on the tv or computer.

The other camp seems to be made up of people that don't come from a sailing background or believe that the parents made a mistake and that Abby herself isn't capable or wasn't prepared for this journey. I'm not saying their wrong but it comes from a different angle.

I think we all need to agree to disagree but respect eachothers views without personally attacking someones opinions. There are some interesting perspectives here(on this thread) from people that have real experience on both sides of this issue.

I'm done debating this but man it is a very interesting story and I can't help but become inspired by this girls drive and maturity. I think other kids should take a look at what she and her brother have accomplished and take it as a lesson and dare i say role model of what you can do in life when you put your mind to it. Hard work, dedication, appreciation of our planet, mother nature, and it's inhabitants and how it all is connected are the messages that kids need these days. Too many kids today are lazy, unmotiviated, and unappreciative of what makes this world go round and this girl represents the exact opposite of what our society is turning into.

I'm out but will keep reading the responses. Thanks for the interesting views. Now i think it's time for a

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by numbskull

.

Judgement, not boat handling, is what kids need to learn to survive. Tackling the S Indian Ocean alone in winter at age 16 is not good judgement. Gambling the life of your 16 yo to affirm your/their opinion that they are special isn't good judgement, either.

Exactly. In a written test of seamenship, maybe this kid scores better than, say, Dennis Connor (the only sailor I know). Does that mean she's better equipped to decide for herself to sail around the world, solo, than he is?

Nope. Maturity and wisdom are a function of age and experience.

I can easily see why this kid wanted to do it. I cannot comprehend any parent even considering agreeing to it. But as I said before, I see 12 year-olds shipped off to boarding schools, which I wouldn't do to my little guy, no matter how smart he was, even if you put a gun to my head.