Credibility

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by detbuch

If you believe that being an American means all Americans should be provided the same product by private businesses regardless of whether or not they can afford to pay for it, then you believe in socialism. And if you believe that healthcare is different than other products and should be delivered in that socialistic manner, then you should have no objection, should even support, universal healthcare paid for by government.

"Wasn't that the case before Obamacare?"

According to liberals, yes.


"If you believe that being an American means all Americans should be provided the same product by private businesses regardless of whether or not they can afford to pay for it"

I didn't say anything close to that. I don't think I'm entitled to the same "stuff" (house, yacht, Cadillac health plan) that a wealthy CEO can buy for himself. Not everyone has the right to a private suite at Johns Hopkins or the Mayo Clinic, just as not everyone has the right to drive a Lexus and have a house on Nantucket. But according to my personal beliefs, everyone has the right to some minimum level of care and security.

"then you believe in socialism" I sure don't believe in pure libertarianism. I think we all have an obligation to provide a safety net to those who can't secure it for themselves. Is that a degree of socialism? Yep. Does that make me a socialist** like Bernie Sanders? Nope.

** for the sake of this argument, let's forget he owns three homes, proving that he's not even remotely the socialist he claims to be

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"Wasn't that the case before Obamacare?"

According to liberals, yes.

You believe that, before Obamacare, liberals thought healthcare was available to those who couldn't secure it for themselves and that huge numbers of poor people were not dying in the streets because they didn't have healthcare? Wonder, if that was the case, why they created Obamacare.

"If you believe that being an American means all Americans should be provided the same product by private businesses regardless of whether or not they can afford to pay for it"

I didn't say anything close to that. I don't think I'm entitled to the same "stuff" (house, yacht, Cadillac health plan) that a wealthy CEO can buy for himself. Not everyone has the right to a private suite at Johns Hopkins or the Mayo Clinic, just as not everyone has the right to drive a Lexus and have a house on Nantucket. But according to my personal beliefs, everyone has the right to some minimum level of care and security.

Again, wasn't that minimum level of care available to everyone before Obamacare?

"then you believe in socialism" I sure don't believe in pure libertarianism. I think we all have an obligation to provide a safety net to those who can't secure it for themselves. Is that a degree of socialism? Yep. Does that make me a socialist** like Bernie Sanders? Nope.

Again, didn't we have the healthcare safety net before Obamacare?

** for the sake of this argument, let's forget he owns three homes, proving that he's not even remotely the socialist he claims to be

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by detbuch

"You believe that, before Obamacare, liberals thought healthcare was available to those who couldn't secure it for themselves and that huge numbers of poor people were not dying in the streets "

Sorry, I was saying, that according to liberals, before Obamacare, huge numbers of poor people were dying in the streets.

"wasn't that minimum level of care available to everyone before Obamacare?"

I don't know. I would have thought that between Medicaid, and free care available at Catholic hospitals, everyone had something. If that's true, then we didn't need Obamacare. I don't know how many people could not afford to go to the doctor of they got sick, and who didn't get Medicaid for some reason. I don't know how many, and I don't know who they were.

"I believe all of that was the case before Obamacare"

You may well be right. I don't know.

I also don't have a problem with pooling everyone together to fund people with preexisting conditions. Especially conditions that they had no control over. If it's too totalitarian to mandate that everyone buy insurance from a private insurer, then tax everybody and let the government implement the plan. No one should suffer decades of financial hardship because of medical issues they had zero control over. No one controls who is so inflicted, so I have zero issue with everyone pooling those costs. It sounds profoundly humane to me. Forcing those people to fend for themselves, is disgusting to me.