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Old 03-11-2017, 08:39 AM   #1
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Credibility

Spicer laughing yesterday as he quoted the president saying the job numbers weren't real when Obama was in office but they are now says a lot. From massive election fraud in NH, to the crowd size and crime rates; POTUS sees things thru the eyes of a child and I don't mean that in a good way. He wants extreme vetting, yet they apparently did a piss poor job vetting Flynn and IMHO a couple other appointed members. He makes a huge accusation against Obama for personally being involved in wire tapping his lines and we have yet to see any proof and his own FBI director wants the justice dept. to deny anything happened. He yapped and yapped all through the election about "Fake News", yet he seems to be very capable of generating a substantial amount of his own news without merit or proof. It is one of the most bizarre starts to a new term president I can remember.
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Old 03-11-2017, 08:59 AM   #2
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Don't worry- once he gets done "stocking the place with chumps" and then sealing Presidential records in the name of National Security- and he's looking for an excuse to do it(Bush had Iraq)-, we won't be hearing/seeing a lot of the nonsense any more.

'Tell the same lie three times'........
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Old 03-11-2017, 09:02 AM   #3
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I was going to post something to that effect now the unemployment numbers are real the private job creation in now real

the only thing thats not true is Its because of Trump .. but dont try to tell his supporters that..

.@realDonaldTrump's First Full Month in Office Sees Biggest Jobs Gain 'In Years': Report:

Fox news

U.S. businesses added 298,000 jobs in February, the most in three years,Construction added 66,000 jobs, as unseasonably warm weather boosted growth in several sectors across the labor market.

Funny last march under Obama U.S. economy gains 215,000 jobs in March and in Febuary of 2016 they added 242,000

unemployment fell to 4.9 percent, a record low in this recovery and half its peak of 10 percent in October 2009.

But again Facts dont seem to Matter
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Old 03-11-2017, 09:45 AM   #4
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we have seen more lies out of this Administration in this short time than in any other Administration ever.
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Old 03-11-2017, 11:24 PM   #5
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we have seen more lies out of this Administration in this short time than in any other Administration ever.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Q: How can you tell a politician is lying?

A: Their lips are moving...
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Old 03-12-2017, 05:34 AM   #6
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the labor force participation rate is improving...this is important because it signifies fewer Americans needing help for government to get by each month because the are actively participating in the workforce...if this shows significant improvement over the next 6-9 months that would be the important distinction between Obama and Trump
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Old 03-12-2017, 11:00 AM   #7
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the labor force participation rate is improving...this is important because it signifies fewer Americans needing help for government to get by each month because the are actively participating in the workforce...if this shows significant improvement over the next 6-9 months that would be the important distinction between Obama and Trump


Critics of Obama think it shows that his supposedly liberal policies are damaging the economy and prompting Americans to drop out of the job market en masse. They think it shows the Democratic neo-welfare state this president constructed is rewarding laziness by doling out government handouts. They think it somehow shows that the sharp decline in the US unemployment rate is a fraud.

Now, even if the US economy continues improving—as most expect—it doesn’t mean that labor-force participation will rebound. Rather, it’s likely to keep declining for at least the next 10 years, as the baby-boomers continue to age out of the workforce. (CBO estimates that labor force participation will be at 60.8% in 2024.)
Without another giant baby boom, it will most likely never to return to the peaks seen during the late 1990s, no matter what political party is in charge.

In other words, you should stop talking about labor-force participation. After all, Obama’s conservative critics will do just that if one of their own takes over the White House in 2016.
https://qz.com/286213/the-chart-obam...uth-behind-it/

Dec 2016 Jan 62.7 feb 2017 62.9 March 63.0.... and Trump has passed nothing
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Old 03-12-2017, 01:51 PM   #8
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Let's not forget what Obama inherited his first term.
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Old 03-12-2017, 03:58 PM   #9
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Let's not forget what Obama inherited his first term
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Old 03-12-2017, 08:01 PM   #10
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Critics of Obama think it shows that his supposedly liberal policies are damaging the economy and prompting Americans to drop out of the job market en masse. They think it shows the Democratic neo-welfare state this president constructed is rewarding laziness by doling out government handouts. They think it somehow shows that the sharp decline in the US unemployment rate is a fraud.

Now, even if the US economy continues improving—as most expect—it doesn’t mean that labor-force participation will rebound. Rather, it’s likely to keep declining for at least the next 10 years, as the baby-boomers continue to age out of the workforce. (CBO estimates that labor force participation will be at 60.8% in 2024.)
Without another giant baby boom, it will most likely never to return to the peaks seen during the late 1990s, no matter what political party is in charge.

In other words, you should stop talking about labor-force participation. After all, Obama’s conservative critics will do just that if one of their own takes over the White House in 2016.
https://qz.com/286213/the-chart-obam...uth-behind-it/

Dec 2016 Jan 62.7 feb 2017 62.9 March 63.0.... and Trump has passed nothing

yawn.........we'll see.....
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Old 03-13-2017, 08:08 AM   #11
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They think it shows the Democratic neo-welfare state this president constructed is rewarding laziness by doling out government handouts.

well...you do have to actually get on a bus and go protest and riot every once in a while...so that's something.....
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Old 03-13-2017, 08:27 AM   #12
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Let's not forget what Obama inherited his first term.
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How could we.....he constantly reminded us.

"If you're arguing with an idiot, make sure he isn't doing the same thing."
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Old 03-13-2017, 09:12 AM   #13
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Let's not forget what Obama inherited his first term.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
You mean a peaceful, stable Iraq, which disintegrated under his watch?

Obama deserves credit, obviously, for stopping the freefall in the economy. But that needs to be balanced against the staggering amount of debt that he accumulated, which our grandkids will spend their entire careers paying interest on. And the fact that he did exactly nothing to help shore up Medicaid or Social Security. But the economy was much healthier when he left, than when he came in, and he gets credit for presiding over that.

But if you don't think it's a safe bet that businesses will feel more comfortable investing in growth under Trump than Obama, you aren't an honest person.

The guy is vulgar, offensive, paranoid, cocky, and brash. But he knows how to cut through the red tape and get stuff done. Will the good outweigh the bad? Maybe, maybe not.

But if you want to point out every single time he acts like an azz, you will be busy for the next 4 years. Very busy.



The Carrier jobs. Obama went on TV and specifically said those jobs could not be saved, and he mocked Trump for suggesting he could save them. Trump picked up the phone and got it done, with Pence's help. Would never have happened under Obama, because even Obama admitted that he had no way of saving those jobs.

Last edited by Jim in CT; 03-13-2017 at 09:20 AM..
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Old 03-13-2017, 09:45 AM   #14
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The Carrier jobs. Obama went on TV and specifically said those jobs could not be saved, and he mocked Trump for suggesting he could save them. Trump picked up the phone and got it done, with Pence's help. Would never have happened under Obama, because even Obama admitted that he had no way of saving those jobs.
That is an oft-raised point, but what is the cost for those jobs in tax cuts and changes in revenue? You can't rail on Obama for raising the debt vs the economy without seeing if the same is true for a Trump deal. If you rail against Obama picking winners and losers, how can you justify it for Trump?
Some thoughts on this from national Review, which makes the point that this is a great deal if it is your job saved, but maybe not overall.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...s-indiana-cost

Maybe the tax breaks aren't a big deal though, there was a Forbes article I can't find right now that looked at this as more of a stick (Carrier was afraid of tariffs and such if they moved) rather than the carrot of taxes. That may not work with many companies.

Bryan

Originally Posted by #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&
"For once I agree with Spence. UGH. I just hope I don't get the urge to go start buying armani suits to wear in my shop"
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Old 03-13-2017, 10:09 AM   #15
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That is an oft-raised point, but what is the cost for those jobs in tax cuts and changes in revenue? You can't rail on Obama for raising the debt vs the economy without seeing if the same is true for a Trump deal. If you rail against Obama picking winners and losers, how can you justify it for Trump?
Some thoughts on this from national Review, which makes the point that this is a great deal if it is your job saved, but maybe not overall.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...s-indiana-cost

Maybe the tax breaks aren't a big deal though, there was a Forbes article I can't find right now that looked at this as more of a stick (Carrier was afraid of tariffs and such if they moved) rather than the carrot of taxes. That may not work with many companies.
Fair point. It's up to the people of Indiana to decide if it was a good deal or not.

Obama didn't say "I could save those jobs but I don't think it's the government's job to spend money this way". Obviously, Obama was not conceptually opposed to the concept of spending federal money. But still, he specifically said those jobs could not be saved, and he mocked Trump for claiming he could save them.

And it wasn't just the state tax cuts that did it. Carrier's parent company is a huge defense contractor (United Technologies, Pratt & Whitney, something like that). Trump reminded the parent company that they depend a lot on sales to the federal government, and used that to leverage the deal.

Trump also go tone of the car companies to agree not to ship as much work to Mexico as they were planning to do.

"If you rail against Obama picking winners and losers, how can you justify it for Trump? "

I don't like picking winners and losers. You are correct, I am opposed to that. That doesn't negate the fact that Trump did (in an afternoon) that which Obama said could not be done. That's the beauty of electing a complete outsider who could not care less about doing things the way they have always been done.

My point was, there is more to Trump than his ego. But only one TV station will ever discuss any of the positive things he does. I thought the media went off the deep end with Bush, this is a whole new level of bias.
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Old 03-13-2017, 11:10 AM   #16
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You mean a peaceful, stable Iraq, which disintegrated under his watch?

Iraq is a sovereign nation they are responsible their own disintegration .. they wanted us out we left but again fact dont matter


U.S. President George W. Bush hailed the passing of the agreement between the two countries. "The Security Agreement addresses our presence, activities, and withdrawal from Iraq"


On November 27, 2008, the Iraqi Parliament ratified a Status of Forces Agreement with the United States, establishing that U.S. combat forces will withdraw from Iraqi cities by June 30, 2009, and all U.S. forces will be completely out of Iraq by December 31, 2011, but allowing for further negotiation if the Iraqi Prime Minister believes Iraq is not stable enough.

Obama deserves credit, obviously, for stopping the freefall in the economy. But that needs to be balanced against the staggering amount of debt that he accumulated, and where did this staggering debt come from you just cant throw out numbers

The CBO found that the largest contributor to the debt was the Obama tax cuts, which were an extension of the Bush tax cuts. They added $858 billion to the debt in 2011 and 2012.

The next largest was the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. It added $787 billion between 2009 and 2012. It cut taxes, extended unemployment benefits, and funded job-creating public works projects.

Like the Obama tax cuts, the ARRA was an attempt to stimulate the economy after the 2008 financial crisis

Obama increased military spending to an average of $800 billion a year. In fact, his security budget request of $895 billion in FY 2011 set a new record. In FY 2013, he requested $851 billion. That happened even though he withdrew troops from Iraq in 2012 and eliminated the threat from Osama bin Laden in 2011. Obama spent $857 billion in contingency funds during his administration. That was more than the $850 billion Bush devoted to the War on Terror.


The guy is vulgar, offensive, paranoid, cocky, and brash. But he knows how to cut through the red tape and get stuff done. Will the good outweigh the bad? Maybe, maybe not.

But if you want to point out every single time he acts like an azz, you will be busy for the next 4 years. Very busy. he dosn't know crap about that when it comes to Government or how it works the business world and government are not interchangeable..



The Carrier jobs. Obama went on TV and specifically said those jobs could not be saved, and he mocked Trump for suggesting he could save them. Trump picked up the phone and got it done, with Pence's help. Would never have happened under Obama, because even Obama admitted that he had no way of saving those jobs.
.... Obama admitted that he had no way of saving these job of course they are a private company and this is the same reason Trump did not save them either ... why do you keep insisting he did and he hadn't even been sworn in yet

The state of Indiana vowed to give the company $7 million in tax incentives over a decade, and the company agreed to invest $16 million in keeping the company in the state.

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Old 03-13-2017, 12:46 PM   #17
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But if you don't think it's a safe bet that businesses will feel more comfortable investing in growth under Trump than Obama, you aren't an honest person.

I've stated a number of times business and the stock market like Trump, not sure after four years who wins and who looses in that shift of money.

The guy is vulgar, offensive, paranoid, cocky, and brash. But he knows how to cut through the red tape and get stuff done. Will the good outweigh the bad? Maybe, maybe not.

If you are going to start a list of his bad qualities, you have missed a lot; liar, bully, womanizer, thin skinned, paranoid are certainly on the top ten.
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Old 03-13-2017, 02:21 PM   #18
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.... Obama admitted that he had no way of saving these job of course they are a private company and this is the same reason Trump did not save them either ... why do you keep insisting he did and he hadn't even been sworn in yet

The state of Indiana vowed to give the company $7 million in tax incentives over a decade, and the company agreed to invest $16 million in keeping the company in the state.
Trump (the president elect) and Mike Pence (the VP elect who was governor of Indiana at the time) worked with Carrier to keep those jobs.

"Trump did not save them either "

Yes he did. With Mike Pence, his VP. SO if Trump says "two plus two equals four", are you going to say he's wrong? Are you that partisan?

"he hadn't even been sworn in yet"

Which makes it more impressive to me that he took the time to do that which Obama was incapable of doing.

"Obama admitted that he had no way of saving these job of course they are a private company "

Obama passed his "stimulus plan" that gave huge $$ to private companies like Solyndra. Not sure what you rpoint is.

WDMSO, you need to evaluate these things a bit more fairly. Not everything that's liberal is good, not everything that's conservative is evil. Put down the Kool Aid and think rationally.
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Old 03-13-2017, 02:26 PM   #19
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But if you don't think it's a safe bet that businesses will feel more comfortable investing in growth under Trump than Obama, you aren't an honest person.

I've stated a number of times business and the stock market like Trump, not sure after four years who wins and who looses in that shift of money.

The guy is vulgar, offensive, paranoid, cocky, and brash. But he knows how to cut through the red tape and get stuff done. Will the good outweigh the bad? Maybe, maybe not.

If you are going to start a list of his bad qualities, you have missed a lot; liar, bully, womanizer, thin skinned, paranoid are certainly on the top ten.
"I've stated a number of times business and the stock market like Trump, not sure after four years who wins and who looses in that shift of money"

If the stock market goes up, it's not a "shift" of money. The people who profit, are not offset by people who lost. Just because someone makes a profit, doesn't mean that someone else experienced a similar loss. Wealth is not finite, it's not like a pizza. If it were, GDP could not increase. Nothing bad happens to anyone if the stock market increases (unless you short stocks, but that's your choice). It's not inevitable that one person's gain came at the expense of someone else's loss.

Agreed, his list of flaws is long. Where I seem to differ from you and certainly from WDMSO, is that I can concede that he also has his good points, and that deeply flawed human beings can be good presidents (Bill Clinton).
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Old 03-13-2017, 03:49 PM   #20
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I agree, lot's of hate for the Clinton's, but you probably have to go back a long way beyond Bill to find a surplus budget. I know a lot of people didn't like Bill and I think the jury is still out on Trump.

As a proud US citizen, I'd love nothing better than someone to take Trumps phone and tweeting privileges away and watch him govern and have success. I don't like him as a person, but knowing what is at stake, I certainly want him to succeed and the US to come out stronger on the other side of his term.

I'm in independent and nothing pisses me off more than the party posturing I see and both sides of the party lines are just as guilty. Can you imagine if one day they all woke up and suddenly there were no democrats, no republicans, they all had to sit side by side and get something positive done.
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Old 03-13-2017, 04:08 PM   #21
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I agree, lot's of hate for the Clinton's, but you probably have to go back a long way beyond Bill to find a surplus budget. I know a lot of people didn't like Bill and I think the jury is still out on Trump.

As a proud US citizen, I'd love nothing better than someone to take Trumps phone and tweeting privileges away and watch him govern and have success. I don't like him as a person, but knowing what is at stake, I certainly want him to succeed and the US to come out stronger on the other side of his term.

I'm in independent and nothing pisses me off more than the party posturing I see and both sides of the party lines are just as guilty. Can you imagine if one day they all woke up and suddenly there were no democrats, no republicans, they all had to sit side by side and get something positive done.
"I don't like him as a person, but knowing what is at stake, I certainly want him to succeed and the US to come out stronger on the other side of his term. "

That's a mature view to take!
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Old 03-13-2017, 07:43 PM   #22
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Trump (the president elect) and Mike Pence (the VP elect who was governor of Indiana at the time) worked with Carrier to keep those jobs.

"Trump did not save them either "

Yes he did. With Mike Pence, his VP. SO if Trump says "two plus two equals four", are you going to say he's wrong? Are you that partisan?

"he hadn't even been sworn in yet"

Which makes it more impressive to me that he took the time to do that which Obama was incapable of doing.

seems you misssed this part The state of Indiana vowed to give the company $7 million in tax incentives over a decade, and the company agreed to invest $16 million in keeping the company in the state.
"Obama admitted that he had no way of saving these job of course they are a private company "

Obama passed his "stimulus plan" that gave huge $$ to private companies like Solyndra. Not sure what you rpoint is.

ARRA's primary objective was to save existing jobs and create new ones as soon as possible. Other objectives were to provide temporary relief programs for those most affected by the recession and invest in infrastructure, education, health, and renewable energy.

[COLOR="blue"]the old Solyndra angle who need to put down the kool aid?? Overall, the agency has loaned $34.2 billion to a variety of businesses, under a program designed to speed up development of clean-energy technology. Companies have defaulted on $780 million of that — a loss rate of 2.28 percent. The agency also has collected $810 million in interest payments, putting the program $30 million in the black. again fact dont matter /COLOR]

WDMSO, you need to evaluate these things a bit more fairly. Not everything that's liberal is good, not everything that's conservative is evil. Put down the Kool Aid and think rationally.
hows this kool aid

CBO and JCT estimate that enacting the American Health Care Act would reduce federal deficits by $337 billion over the coming decade and increase the number of people who are uninsured by 24 million in 2026 relative to current law.

Coverage and Premiums
The number of people who are uninsured would increase by 18 million in the first new plan year following enactment of the bill. Later, after the elimination of the ACA’s expansion of Medicaid eligibility and of subsidies for insurance purchased through the ACA marketplaces, that number would increase to 27 million, and then to 32 million in 2026.
Premiums in the nongroup market (for individual policies purchased through the marketplaces or directly from insurers) would increase by 20 percent to 25 percent—relative to projections under current law—in the first new plan year following enactment. The increase would reach about 50 percent in the year following the elimination of the Medicaid expansion and the marketplace subsidies, and premiums would about double by 2026.
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Old 03-13-2017, 08:35 PM   #23
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hows this kool aid

CBO and JCT estimate that enacting the American Health Care Act would reduce federal deficits by $337 billion over the coming decade and increase the number of people who are uninsured by 24 million in 2026 relative to current law.

Coverage and Premiums
The number of people who are uninsured would increase by 18 million in the first new plan year following enactment of the bill. Later, after the elimination of the ACA’s expansion of Medicaid eligibility and of subsidies for insurance purchased through the ACA marketplaces, that number would increase to 27 million, and then to 32 million in 2026.
Premiums in the nongroup market (for individual policies purchased through the marketplaces or directly from insurers) would increase by 20 percent to 25 percent—relative to projections under current law—in the first new plan year following enactment. The increase would reach about 50 percent in the year following the elimination of the Medicaid expansion and the marketplace subsidies, and premiums would about double by 2026.
Since there would be no mandate forcing people to get insurance or get taxed, there would be many who do not choose to get insured. Projections under current law would not account for the positive reaction of the market when choice, competition, and less regulation become part of insurance. CBO often does not get it right. Supposedly this is only the first step toward returning to market based insurance and away from totally government mandated, regulated, and greatly subsidized.

It's the freedom thing. In that direction. You know. Like you say. Things change. That's how the world works. Why bitch?
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Old 03-13-2017, 08:49 PM   #24
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hows this kool aid

CBO and JCT estimate that enacting the American Health Care Act would reduce federal deficits by $337 billion over the coming decade and increase the number of people who are uninsured by 24 million in 2026 relative to current law.

Coverage and Premiums
The number of people who are uninsured would increase by 18 million in the first new plan year following enactment of the bill. Later, after the elimination of the ACA’s expansion of Medicaid eligibility and of subsidies for insurance purchased through the ACA marketplaces, that number would increase to 27 million, and then to 32 million in 2026.
Premiums in the nongroup market (for individual policies purchased through the marketplaces or directly from insurers) would increase by 20 percent to 25 percent—relative to projections under current law—in the first new plan year following enactment. The increase would reach about 50 percent in the year following the elimination of the Medicaid expansion and the marketplace subsidies, and premiums would about double by 2026.
WDMSO, president-elect Trump and VP-elect Pence, brokered the deal that saved those jobs. You can't say it out loud because you can't admit Trump did something good.

Obama's stimulus bill was sold with the promise that it would keep unemployment below 8%. It didn't. Not even close. Unemployment went to 10%. He ws only off by a few million jobs.

I hate the GOP plan to replace Obamacare, as it stands now. I don't like taking insurance away from that many.

See? I can think for myself. Try it sometime.
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Old 03-13-2017, 09:19 PM   #25
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I hate the GOP plan to replace Obamacare, as it stands now. I don't like taking insurance away from that many.
Do you believe that insurance should be given rather than bought? If insurance is given, why have insurance as an intermediary. Just directly give the health care instead of giving the insurance first. What's the point of health insurance if it is given rather than bought? Just have universal health care paid by government and get the whole thing over with. Bing, Bang, boom . . . done.
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Old 03-14-2017, 05:34 AM   #26
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WDMSO, president-elect Trump and VP-elect Pence, brokered the deal that saved those jobs. You can't say it out loud because you can't admit Trump did something good.

Trump all the credit for Nothing

Obama's stimulus bill was sold with the promise that it would keep unemployment below 8%. It didn't. Not even close. Unemployment went to 10%. He ws only off by a few million jobs.

No credit for trying

I hate the GOP plan to replace Obamacare, as it stands now. I don't like taking insurance away from that many.

See? I can think for myself. Try it sometime.
Really Seems you hate the GOP plan with no mention of Tump promises but had let us know Obama failed ... thats thinking for your self all right

"We're gonna come up with a new plan that's going to be better health care for more people at a lesser cost," Trump
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Old 03-14-2017, 06:01 AM   #27
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"We're gonna come up with a new plan that's going to be better health care for more people at a lesser cost," Trump
"We're gonna come up with a new plan that's going to be better health care for more people at a lesser cost," Obama, Reid, Pelosi, Schumer, etc.......
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Old 03-14-2017, 08:40 AM   #28
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"We're gonna come up with a new plan that's going to be better health care for more people at a lesser cost," Obama, Reid, Pelosi, Schumer, etc.......

they did .. maybe you missed the last 8 years when the GOP refused to make needed changes voting to repeal and replace 51 time

But in thoses 8 years never formulated a plan to replace it

Trump: ‘Nobody knew that health care could be so complicated’


Amazing
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Old 03-14-2017, 08:56 AM   #29
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they did ..
and it's a disaster unless you are enjoying free or heavily subsidized healthcare....like most social programs that are perpetually "underfunded"

it's one of the big messes that Trump inherited from Obama
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Old 03-14-2017, 09:10 AM   #30
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Really Seems you hate the GOP plan with no mention of Tump promises but had let us know Obama failed ... thats thinking for your self all right

"We're gonna come up with a new plan that's going to be better health care for more people at a lesser cost," Trump
"Trump all the credit for Nothing "

Everything you said there is wrong. I didn't give Trump all the credit, I give him some, because he played a role. "For nothing" - they saved hundreds of jobs for working, blue collar Americans. To you, that's nothing, because you didn't vote for Trump. You are incapable of intellectual honesty.

"No credit for trying "

Obama spent almost a trillion dollars (which we had to borrow, naturally) on a stimulus plan that was a flop. Sure he tried. But he failed miserably, and that failure will cost us huge amounts of $$. But that doesn't bother you, because he has a (d) after his name. But every failure of Trump's, is something that bothers you to no end. We get it, we get it.

Trump hasn't gone back on hos healthcare promises yet, because that proposed bill is nowhere near becoming law. Let's see what it looks like when they are ready to pass it. If at that point it falls short of what he promised, I will be the first one to call him on that. Fair enough?
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